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Dragon Ball: After the End

Voting is open
Reader mode
Revising after QM input.

[] Plan Namekian Batman 2.0
-[]Sight
--[] Continue Your Training (2 AP): You've come to a new plateau in your abilities and mapped the new edges of your gift. Now seems like a fine time to push the boundaries, or pick up some new tricks. Follow Dazarel's training regime.
-[] Looking Abroad (1 AP) [Tien Style]: Utilize our Sight to view Tien himself and/or historical Masters of Tien Style, to supplement our own Style Training (1 Free AP)
-[]Training
--[] Improve a Skill (2 AP) [ Dodonpa]
--[] Style Training (2 AP) [Tien Style] (1 Free AP)
--[] New Skill (1 AP) [Four Witches Technique] (1 Free AP)
--[] Improve a Skill (1 AP) [Kikoho] (1 Free AP)
-[] Social
--[] Strengthen Host Bond (2 AP) (1 Free AP)
--[] Talk to Dazarel (1 AP)
-[]The Outside World
--[] Instruction (1 AP)
--[] Historical Insights (1 AP)
-[]A Cause
--[] Improve a Skill (1 AP) [Ki Refinement]

So the logic on using Ki Refinement there is, again, Force Multiplier.
 
So, further thoughts. Solar Flare would be a fine thing to stick a training roll on, if we have a spare AP. I was thinking about spending sight to look for someone who can do the memory manipulation we'll likely need, but we should probably wait until we confirm it's Haila, since if it's not, we won't be fighting like that.

I don't think All is One is worth training at the moment, simply because it will probably take quite a while to get something workable out of it, and the benefits will likely not apply very well while trapped in a Katchin dome. Instant Transmission likewise probably isn't at its best in what's basically a cage match.

Historical insights is probably a decent one to do now. I don't think it's urgent, but we're more restricted in what we can work on right now than we were on New Namek (no Perika to train, can't train the Namekians in bulk, and even training the squad is probably complicated by the fact we're splitting up here). We probably want to do it at some point, so it might as well be now.

Re: the other plans proposed, I'm not wild about the Dodonpa training personally - it's a little piercy for Kakara's style in my opinion - that is, getting hit with a big blast tends to knock somebody around, whereas getting hit with Dodonpa puts a hole in somebody, which is a little harder to make non-lethal. I also don't think we need to double up on stuff right now - not that the diminishing returns will be crippling, but we still have time to spread those things over multiple turns.

Knight's current plan lacks looking home, and IIRC it was hinted that putting that off longer would likely have some sort of impact on Kakara. I think that probably needs to get done.

For the task assignment, I lean towards checking out the fleet, but I don't feel especially strongly. Somebody's gonna do that, though, and Bassoon is probably the best in the group at it.

As far as a revised, complete plan, this is what I'm looking at now:

[ ] Plan Thunder
-[ ] Sight (2+0)
--[ ] Continue Your Training (1 AP)
--[ ] Looking Abroad (1 AP) [Roshi's Thunder Shock Surprise]
-[ ] Social (2+0)
--[ ] Talk to Dazarel (1 AP)
--[ ] Strengthen Host Bond (1 AP)
-[ ] Training: (3+4)
--[ ] Improve a Skill (1 AP) [Kikoho]
--[ ] Improve a Skill (1 AP) [Ki Refinement]
--[ ] Improve a Skill (1 AP) [Ki Overdrive]
--[ ] Improve a Skill (1 AP) [Solar Flare]
--[ ] To Go Beyond (1 AP) [Perfect Multiform]
--[ ] Research Project (1 AP) [Thunder Shock Surprise]
--[ ] Style Training (1 AP) [Tien Style]
-[ ] The Outside World (0+1 AP)
--[ ] Historical Insights (1 AP)
-[ ] A Cause
--[ ] Looking Home (1 AP)
 
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googlyeyesultra said:
[ ] Plan Thunder
-[ ] Sight (2+0)
--[ ] Continue Your Training (1 AP)
--[ ] Looking Abroad (1 AP) [Roshi's Thunder Shock Surprise]
-[ ] Social (2+0)
--[ ] Talk to Dazarel (1 AP)
--[ ] Strengthen Host Bond (1 AP)
-[ ] Training: (3+4)
--[ ] Improve a Skill (1 AP) [Kikoho]
--[ ] Improve a Skill (1 AP) [Ki Refinement]
--[ ] Improve a Skill (1 AP) [Ki Overdrive]
--[ ] Improve a Skill (1 AP) [Solar Flare]
--[ ] To Go Beyond (1 AP) [Perfect Multiform]
--[ ] Research Project (1 AP) [Thunder Shock Surprise]
--[ ] Style Training (1 AP) [Tien Style]
-[ ] The Outside World (0+1 AP)
--[ ] Historical Insights (1 AP)
-[ ] A Cause
--[ ] Looking Home (1 AP)
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mh.. I have a proposal about the Thunder Shock Surprise. I think we can sort of.. visit Heaven, even if only for a few minutes before the barrier kicks us out. What if we used an AP to get a few hints and tips, and maybe a live demonstration, from Roshi himself about his technique?

really, there's any reason why we can't visit them to get such showing? We can't do it for too long, but we HAVE gone to heaven multiple times already... Same for looking at Tien's current style, really, though there might be a limitation to how often we can visit without the barrier starting to get more annoyed at us...

Really, I think the only thing we can't actually get from our ancestors (as long as it can fit in the few minutes available to the visit) would be the ssj god secret, because they're sort of forbidden from telling us by the other gods (and even that isn't really an hard rule. I think it was mentioned the guilty god is punished with paperwork...)

@PoptartProdigy would a 1 ap on "go talk to roshi and get him to show his technique/tien to show his style/them giving us a few tips and hints" be a valid choice, or is visiting simply not possible or somehow too risky?

other than this, I'm fine with this plan.
 
Pittauro said:
@PoptartProdigy would a 1 ap on "go talk to roshi and get him to show his technique/tien to show his style/them giving us a few tips and hints" be a valid choice, or is visiting simply not possible or somehow too risky?
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Given the Other World's visitation policy (read: "No") and the difficulty Kakara has with actually projecting outside of Bassoon at the moment (per the character sheet), it seems likely that it would be more gainful by far to just pastwatch whatever you need.
 
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Hmm. I kind of want this month to spend its' story updates on the trip, and just grind out training with our AP?
On the other hand, a nonlethal stealth-focused style would also be really useful I think. The Enemy relying on collaborators suggests that we actually have a lot more freedom to use it than I've been thinking, and we probably need to.
So let's make two prototypes.
[X] Plan Just Train
-[X] Continue Your Training (2 Psychic AP): You're going to double down on psychic training this month. To get strong enough to save everyone, you'll have to work for it.
-[X] Style Training (5 Free AP) [Tenshinhan Style]: Same deal with Tenshinhan. You have the theory, and you need the practice now.
-[X] Research Project (2 Training AP) [Stat Shifting]: Perhaps you're looking at this wrong. Full-Power Multiform is basically another super mode, but multiform hacking is itself a skill you've gotten good at. Figuring out how to trade durability for speed for stamina for power, shuffling your strengths and weaknesses as tactically appropriate, would be a really useful skill in itself.
-[X] To Go Beyond (1 Cause AP) [Multiform]: Hopefully you can finish this month. Matching the enemy's numbers is a first step to being able to win when you return.
-[X] Strengthen Host Bond (1 AP): Your current nature is still kind of a mystery to you. Figuring it out is going to be critical to... everything.
-[X] Talk to Dazarel (1 AP): The dragon needs to repent. His teacher needs to be stopped. And frankly? A philosophical win would be really nice. Keep working on him.

[X] Plan [Nothing To See Here]
-[X] Continue Your Training (2 Psychic AP): You're going to double down on psychic training this month. To get strong enough to save everyone, you'll have to work for it.
-[X] Invent A Style (5 Free AP): Tenshinhan is a good foundation, but it was never the final goal. You need to shift focus. Stealth and nonlethal; your specialties.
-[ ] Research Project (2 Training AP) [Stat Shifting]: Perhaps you're looking at this wrong. Full-Power Multiform is basically another super mode, but multiform hacking is itself a skill you've gotten good at. Figuring out how to trade durability for speed for stamina for power, shuffling your strengths and weaknesses as tactically appropriate, would be a really useful skill in itself.
-[ ] To Go Beyond (1 Cause AP) [Multiform]: Hopefully you can finish this month. Matching the enemy's numbers is a first step to being able to win when you return.
-[ ] Strengthen Host Bond (1 AP): Your current nature is still kind of a mystery to you. Figuring it out is going to be critical to... everything.
-[ ] Talk to Dazarel (1 AP): The dragon needs to repent. His teacher needs to be stopped. And frankly? A philosophical win would be really nice. Keep working on him.
 
I am completely undecided on the Task.

[X] Plan Go Beyond Tenshinhan Style!
-[X] Sight (2 AP)
--[X] Continue Your Training (1 AP): Follow Dazarel's training regime.
--[X] Looking Home (1 AP): Devote a substantial amount of time and effort to using your Sight to keep up to date on the current events on Garenhuld.
-[X] Training (3 AP + 2 Free AP)
--[X] Improve a Skill (1 AP) Dodonpa: Please note that you can no longer directly train super-skills like Hand-to-Hand or Ki Manipulation.
--[X] Improve a Skill (1 AP) Genki Dama: Please note that you can no longer directly train super-skills like Hand-to-Hand or Ki Manipulation.
--[X] New Skills (1 AP) Four Witches Technique: Acquire any skill of which Kakara knows, at an appropriate starting level. The skill's theory and practice must be things to which Kakara has access.
--[X] To Go Beyond (1 AP) Ki Sense: Select either Ki Sense or Multiform and begin training it to Elite+ levels.
--[X] To Go Beyond (1 AP) Multiform: Select either Ki Sense or Multiform and begin training it to Elite+ levels.
-[X] Social (2 AP + 2 Free AP)
--[X] Strengthen Host Bond (1 AP): Deepen the metaphysical connection you have with Bassoon by running experiments with him and exploring his mindscape.
--[X] Talk to Dazarel (1 AP): Spend significant time and focused effort trying to connect with Dazarel. Train him in the use of ki in order to give him a path forward that does not involve murder.
--[X] General Training (2 AP): You've made a start on establishing your teammates' foundations in the arts of ki; now you intend to continue. Continue imparting knowledge and power onto your teammates for this mission.
-[X] The Outside World (0 AP + 1 Free AP)
--[X] Instruction (1 AP): Bassoon makes a concerted effort to train his power level and abilities this month, and you directly assist him.
-[X] A Cause (1 AP)
--[X] Style Training (1 AP) Tenshinhan Style: Make training rolls towards leveling up one of your combat styles.

This plan focuses on shoring up Kakara and her team's ability to fight. Though I decided to throw the audience and bone and possibly figure out that alien invasion of Garenhuld is going or went down.
 
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It occurs to me that All Is One might have some very interesting synergies with being inside someone else's head.

[X] Plan: All Is One in Bassoon's Head
-[X] The Sight (2 AP)
--[X] Continue Your Training (1 AP)
--[X] Looking Home (1 AP)
-[X] Training (3+2 AP)
--[X] Style Training (1 AP) [Tenshinhan]
--[X] To Go Beyond (1 AP) [Perfect Multiform]
--[X] Improve a Skill (1 AP) [Dodonpa]
--[X] Improve a Skill (1 AP) [Crowd Fighting]
--[X] To Go Beyond (1 AP) [Ki Sense - All Is One]
-[X] Social (2+2 AP)
--[X] Talk To Dazarel (1 AP)
--[X] Strengthen Host Bond (1 AP)
--[X] General Training (2 AP)
-[X] The Outside World (0+1 AP)
--[X] Historical Insights (1 AP)
-[X] A Cause (1 AP)
--[X] Ki Refinement (1 AP)

On the other hand, given that Kakara is currently cut off from all the support (and records) of Garenhuld, this is probably the ideal time to invent new tricks. The Thunder Shock surprise would benefit from Garenhuld, but you know what wouldn't? The old idea of flickering USSJ at the moment of contact, for extra power and durability but without hindering movement or stamina.

[X] Plan: Flickering USSJ
-[X] The Sight (2 AP)
--[X] Continue Your Training (1 AP)
--[X] Looking Home (1 AP)
-[X] Training (3+2 AP)
--[X] Style Training (1 AP) [Tenshinhan
--[X] To Go Beyond (1 AP) [Perfect Multiform]
--[X] Improve a Skill (1 AP) [Dodonpa]
--[X] Improve a Skill (1 AP) [Crowd Fighting]
--[X] Research Project (1 AP) [Flickering USSJ]
-[X] Social (2+2 AP)
--[X] Talk To Dazarel (1 AP)
--[X] Strengthen Host Bond (1 AP)
--[X] General Training (2 AP)
-[X] The Outside World (0+1 AP)
--[X] Historical Insights (1 AP)
-[X] A Cause (1 AP)
--[X] Ki Refinement (1 AP)
 
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Plan is same as discussed before the vote opened. Only comment at this point on the other plans is that I think spending 5 AP on style training in one turn is going to hit severe diminishing returns, and I think we have enough time to spread that training out to one or two actions per turn.

[X] Plan Thunder
-[X] Sight (2+0)
--[X] Continue Your Training (1 AP)
--[X] Looking Abroad (1 AP) [Roshi's Thunder Shock Surprise]
-[X] Social (2+0)
--[X] Talk to Dazarel (1 AP)
--[X] Strengthen Host Bond (1 AP)
-[X] Training: (3+4)
--[X] Improve a Skill (1 AP) [Kikoho]
--[X] Improve a Skill (1 AP) [Ki Refinement]
--[X] Improve a Skill (1 AP) [Ki Overdrive]
--[X] Improve a Skill (1 AP) [Solar Flare]
--[X] To Go Beyond (1 AP) [Perfect Multiform]
--[X] Research Project (1 AP) [Thunder Shock Surprise]
--[X] Style Training (1 AP) [Tien Style]
-[X] The Outside World (0+1 AP)
--[X] Historical Insights (1 AP)
-[X] A Cause
--[X] Looking Home (1 AP)


For the task, I don't feel that strongly, but this seems best.

[X][TASK] -heading out and locating the fleet itself. This sort of thing -- sneaking around massive fleets -- is almost exactly Bassoon's specialty. All that would need to change to be any more perfect would be if he was trying to reach a planet they were blockading.
 
HoratioVonBecker said:
-[X] Style Training (5 Free AP) [Tenshinhan Style]: Same deal with Tenshinhan. You have the theory, and you need the practice now.
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HoratioVonBecker said:
-[X] Invent A Style (5 Free AP): Tenshinhan is a good foundation, but it was never the final goal. You need to shift focus. Stealth and nonlethal; your specialties.
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remember that >1 ap on single actions get diminishing returns.

Generally speaking, unless we're REALLY pressed for time, it's rarely a good idea to spend more than 2 ap on training one single thing.

Also I don't think this is a good moment to create a new style. Tien is not that far away from an upgrade (Novice(5/10)), and we might want to focus on the one we know rather than try a new one right now.

A few more months of 1ap training will be enough to rank it up, and if we're in more of a hurry we can give it 2 ap per turn (though I'd mostly prefer share the ap to raise efficiency of training).

I'd leave inventing a style for AFTER freeing Garenhuld, simply because we'll have other people we'll be able to confront ourselves with.
HoratioVonBecker said:
-[X] Research Project (2 Training AP) [Stat Shifting]: Perhaps you're looking at this wrong. Full-Power Multiform is basically another super mode, but multiform hacking is itself a skill you've gotten good at. Figuring out how to trade durability for speed for stamina for power, shuffling your strengths and weaknesses as tactically appropriate, would be a really useful skill in itself.
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eh, stat shifting sounds good only if it could be done basically instantly, otherwise I think we're better off just continuing our training for Perfect Multiform. We already got a proof of concept, we just need to chip away at it until we basically get the Elite Talent allowing for reduced cost of the technique.

buli-buli said:
--[X] Improve a Skill (1 AP) Genki Dama: Please note that you can no longer directly train super-skills like Hand-to-Hand or Ki Manipulation.
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does training this actually make sense right now? I don't think we can while inside Basson, we have so little time OUTSIDE of him, and we can't really train it while suppressing our power, so we risk being sensed by scouters...

Deathbybunnies said:
--[X] To Go Beyond (1 AP) [Ki Sense]
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you might want to specify that you're aiming for "all is one", as technically we also qualify for sensing machine energy.
Deathbybunnies said:
On the other hand, given that Kakara is currently cut off from all the support (and records) of Garenhuld, this is probably the ideal time to invent new tricks. The Thunder Shock surprise would benefit from Garenhuld, but you know what wouldn't? The old idea of flickering USSJ at the moment of contact, for extra power and durability but without hindering movement or stamina.
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I suppose we could try and outsource research for the THunder Shock Surprise, but would it really help much?

Seers can look at it, but they don't really have the ki knowledge to understand it and replicate it, and Kakara has a very unusual level of ki control, which would likely make changing her ki to electricity incredibly easier compared to basically anyone else.

and about USSJ flickering... it's not a HORRIBLE idea, but it comes with two problems in my opinion

1)if the flicker isn't fast enough, it can be sensed and/or bring down saiyan wards, which means we can't really use it on Garenhuld for the same reason we can't easily use Golden Oozaru at full power.

2)it would become immediately useless once we unlock ssj2, so its long term value is pretty low unless it can ALSO be used with it. Or, I suppose, unless we learn how to flicker ss2 on and off to save stamina/not get sensed too far away.

I'd rather go with the thunder shock suprise (or even the mafuba/evil containment wave, as that could even be useful against the stronger arcosians/frost demons, though I imagine it would be harder to replicate...





[X] Plan Thunder


[x][TASK] -heading out and locating the fleet itself. This sort of thing -- sneaking around massive fleets -- is almost exactly Bassoon's specialty. All that would need to change to be any more perfect would be if he was trying to reach a planet they were blockading.

In the end I'm going with this mostly because it's the one I think is the most important, even if I think Kakara is better suited to the ones in which she could read minds.
 
Pittauro said:
you might want to specify that you're aiming for "all is one", as technically we also qualify for sensing machine energy.
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I can do that, sure.


Pittauro said:
I suppose we could try and outsource research for the THunder Shock Surprise, but would it really help much?

Seers can look at it, but they don't really have the ki knowledge to understand it and replicate it, and Kakara has a very unusual level of ki control, which would likely make changing her ki to electricity incredibly easier compared to basically anyone else.
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As a historical technique of a beloved Z-Fighter, I'm sure they'll have some records and stories. (Though to be honest, I'm also just generally not enthused about it as a technique.)


Pittauro said:
and about USSJ flickering... it's not a HORRIBLE idea, but it comes with two problems in my opinion

1)if the flicker isn't fast enough, it can be sensed and/or bring down saiyan wards, which means we can't really use it on Garenhuld for the same reason we can't easily use Golden Oozaru at full power.

2)it would become immediately useless once we unlock ssj2, so its long term value is pretty low unless it can ALSO be used with it. Or, I suppose, unless we learn how to flicker ss2 on and off to save stamina/not get sensed too far away.
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1. This sounds like an excellent reason to practice it and get it down here and now, where we can practice it until we can flicker it that quickly without dooming our race.

2. The basic principle of flickering to a higher form quickly enough for infinitesimal bursts seems like it should be mostly transferrable. I recall some people talking about flickering SSBlue, though that's quite pie-in-the-sky.

Alternatively, I see no reason why USSJ2 wouldn't also exist. Just pump up the exact same way in the higher form.
 
EDIT: Plan revised, new post next page.

Adjusting the plan slightly.

[][TASK] -heading out and locating the fleet itself. This sort of thing -- sneaking around massive fleets -- is almost exactly Bassoon's specialty. All that would need to change to be any more perfect would be if he was trying to reach a planet they were blockading.

[] Plan Namekian Batman 2.5
-[]Sight
--[] Continue Your Training (2 AP): You've come to a new plateau in your abilities and mapped the new edges of your gift. Now seems like a fine time to push the boundaries, or pick up some new tricks. Follow Dazarel's training regime.
-[] Looking Abroad (1 AP) [Tien Style]: Utilize our Sight to view Tien himself and/or historical Masters of Tien Style, to supplement our own Style Training (1 Free AP)
-[]Training
--[] Improve a Skill (1 AP) [Dodonpa]
--[] Improve a Skill (1 AP) [Ki Refinement]
--[] Style Training (2 AP) [Tien Style] (1 Free AP)
--[] New Skill (1 AP) [Four Witches Technique] (1 Free AP)
--[] Improve a Skill (1 AP) [Kikoho] (1 Free AP)
-[] Social
--[] Strengthen Host Bond (2 AP) (1 Free AP)
--[] Talk to Dazarel (1 AP)
-[]The Outside World
--[] Instruction (1 AP)
--[X Historical Insights (1 AP)
-[]A Cause
--[] Looking Home (1 AP)

Splitting an AP off of Dodonpa to put Ki Refinement up in Training, then use A Cause to Look Home.

This plan's biggest focuses are Continuing Sight Training (due to all the sub-skills connected), Tien Style (we have a long way to go here, and we've seen, repeatedly, the advantages of having a strong bonus to a Style), and Host Bond (because this benefits both us and Bassoon).
Looking Abroad for Tien Style hints is good exercise and builds on the Tien Style goal.
Dodonpa, Kikoho, and Four Witches are useful moves, and are part of Tien Style.
Ki Refinement is the most attractive of these "booster" techniques, to me, and the one I think we'll have the most luck with.
Talking to Dazrael should probably keep happening for a long time.
Instruction is further boost to Bassoon, which is good long-term to help Namek (and Arcosia).
Historical Insight is to give us information, especially info we didn't necessarily know we needed prior.
And Looking Home gives us an update on the situation, as well as fulfilling that looming need.
 
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[X] Plan Namekian Batman 2.8 Dream Dive Distance
I like this, but think that doing 2 actions on the style itself might be a bit much - and that it's probably a good idea to keep up our multiform training - especially since using multiforms is part of the style, alongside the fact that we seem close-ish to getting something viable.
 
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Deathbybunnies said:
As a historical technique of a beloved Z-Fighter, I'm sure they'll have some records and stories. (Though to be honest, I'm also just generally not enthused about it as a technique.)
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it's also a LOST technique though. Also one of a relatively marginal z-fighter.

We know they're researching the Fusion technique and are pretty close to rediscovering that one, and the genkidama was completely lost. No idea how much they have on this one technique only used by roshi against

1)goku in the tournament

2)a couple of time during the Tournament of Power.


and that Roshi presumably never taught anyone else

Deathbybunnies said:
1. This sounds like an excellent reason to practice it and get it down here and now, where we can practice it until we can flicker it that quickly without dooming our race.

2. The basic principle of flickering to a higher form quickly enough for infinitesimal bursts seems like it should be mostly transferrable. I recall some people talking about flickering SSBlue, though that's quite pie-in-the-sky.

Alternatively, I see no reason why USSJ2 wouldn't also exist. Just pump up the exact same way in the higher form.
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eh, I don't know if practice with one transformation would be transferred to OTHER transformations.

Usually it's shown that transformation to not-mastered forms is NOT instant. I imagine that to flicker ssj2 it would probably take a FPSSJ2, not the basic one.

about USSJ2.. well, admittedly I don't know 100% that it's not possible, though

I remember how ssj3 was sometime compared to a USSJ2 rather than it's own form, though that's not really a fair comparison. After all it raises the basic caps, even if it can't really be mastered conventionally. the implication is that there might be a TRUE ssj3 hidden somewhere beyond ssj2 that CAN be mastered though.

on that note though, if/when we reach ssj2, I don't think ssj3 would be that hard to reach for Kakara IF she learns its "secret", possibly from Goku himself.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
Apologies! I completely missed that.

I was going to ask if there was a reason you dropped Perfect Multiform when it's almost done, but then I remembered you don't like it.
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1.) The last update about it, it seemed like our previous line of investigation had us hitting a wall/dead end. So I don't feel like we are "almost done" with it.
2.) If you're working from the perspective of trying to do PM in general, you can always think of my plan as someone putting down the pen on one work to do something else for a while, then come back with fresh eyes.
3.) My personal views on PM aside, I'm also trying to hit a lot of stuff (Tien-related techniques) that I feel we can make good progress on fairly quickly.
 
KnightDisciple said:
1.) The last update about it, it seemed like our previous line of investigation had us hitting a wall/dead end. So I don't feel like we are "almost done" with it.
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We finished unlocking the Elite Talent, and now have to train from Exceptional to Elite to get it into a useable state. It's not useable because we aren't done, it's just complete enough to give an idea of what "done" will look like, and we'll get there in 2-4 actions.
KnightDisciple said:
2.) If you're working from the perspective of trying to do PM in general, you can always think of my plan as someone putting down the pen on one work to do something else for a while, then come back with fresh eyes.
3.) My personal views on PM aside, I'm also trying to hit a lot of stuff (Tien-related techniques) that I feel we can make good progress on fairly quickly.
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Mechanically speaking though, it's better to do one of each each turn than do 2 on one turn and 2 of the other on the next. Like, objectively.

EDIT: Like, if we'd "hit a wall" Multiform wouldn't be explicitly listed as a skill we can train to Elite.
 
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Deathbybunnies said:
We finished unlocking the Elite Talent, and now have to train from Exceptional to Elite to get it into a useable state. It's not useable because we aren't done, it's just complete enough to give an idea of what "done" will look like, and we'll get there in 2-4 actions.

Mechanically speaking though, it's better to do one of each each turn than do 2 on one turn and 2 of the other on the next. Like, objectively.

EDIT: Like, if we'd "hit a wall" Multiform wouldn't be explicitly listed as a skill we can train to Elite.
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Poptart said that there are "diminishing" returns, but the counter-point is that spending 2 AP on something gives a much better chance of achieving more progress in a time crunch (which we are absolutely in right now). It's disingenuous to assert that it's "objectively" "mechanically" better to only ever spend 1 AP on anything.

I recognize that in some ways spending 2 AP on a couple of items is a tradeoff. I'm conscious of that tradeoff, and am working on statements from the QM, given just the last page. @PoptartProdigy is absolutely not someone who's going to lie to us about this sort of thing.
 
KnightDisciple said:
Poptart said that there are "diminishing" returns, but the counter-point is that spending 2 AP on something gives a much better chance of achieving more progress in a time crunch (which we are absolutely in right now). It's disingenuous to assert that it's "objectively" "mechanically" better to only ever spend 1 AP on anything.

I recognize that in some ways spending 2 AP on a couple of items is a tradeoff. I'm conscious of that tradeoff, and am working on statements from the QM, given just the last page. @PoptartProdigy is absolutely not someone who's going to lie to us about this sort of thing.
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We are in a time crunch of eight turns. It is certainly not the time to be doubling down for diminishing returns. I can comfortably say that yes, it is objectively better to not double down this turn unless you're proposing that our need is so great that we'll be doubling down every single turn after this, which it most definitely is not.

Like, if it were one or two turns I could see the argument, and if were three I'd argue for putting off the double down to the last turn to see if we need it, but eight? No.

Also, on a rather pragmatic note - Perfect Multiform is two-four actions away. Even if you despise the very thought of it, can you acknowledge that after so much time investment and a completed Research Project, it's going to win four actions over the next 8 turns? If so, surely it would be better to just take them one at a time, instead of doubling down on Tien Style early and reducing the effectiveness of training Tien Style, the part you care about?

You'll notice I've put an action on Tien Style rather than doubling down on PM, and I certainly believe PM to be the more effective time investment at this point.
 
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Deathbybunnies said:
We are in a time crunch of eight turns. It is certainly not the time to be doubling down for diminishing returns. I can comfortably say that yes, it is objectively better to not double down this turn unless you're proposing that our need is so great that we'll be doubling down every single turn after this, which it most definitely is not.

Like, if it were one or two turns I could see the argument, and if were three I'd argue for putting off the double down to the last turn to see if we need it, but eight? No.

Also, on a rather pragmatic note - Perfect Multiform is two-four actions away. Even if you despise the very thought of it, can you acknowledge that after so much time investment and a completed Research Project, it's going to win four actions over the next 8 turns? If so, surely it would be better to just take them one at a time, instead of doubling down on Tien Style early and reducing the effectiveness of training Tien Style, the part you care about?

You'll notice I've put an action on Tien Style rather than doubling down on PM, and I certainly believe PM to be the more effective time investment at this point.
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I think we're going to have to agree to disagree, as I'm simply not convinced re: PM, and I'm getting soured on being told that my plan is "objectively" "mechanically" worse.
 
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