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Dragon Ball: After the End

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One problem with the hyperbolic time chamber was that it had a limited number of uses per person. If you don't get to SSJ2 in that time that's it, and you certainly won't reach the cap in the time left over.

Personally, I'm in favour of either removing Dandeer's magic from everyone without killing Jaron or Jaffur... or using the wish to get Ki Stealth after all! We've seen from our previous wish that wish effects are completely orthoganal to regular ki usage - this might be our only chance of getting it! Ideally in a form we can share - perhaps an effect that any Saiyan can use at-will? We'd have to ask Porunga if that's viable.

And, of course, with Ki Stealth comes unlimited safe training for SSJ2...
 
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I think it's down to superbody, time chamber, and kill-and-revive Garenhuld. I don't think Porunga can remove Dandeer's rituals any other way, and Poptart has said that the kill-and-revive plan would still be super traumatic for Kakara, so there's some in-character justification for the other two.
Oh! And trying to wish on the Super Dragon Balls. That would be worth two Porunga wishes, easily.

I have a new idea for the superbody, by the way. It's plausibly deniable - apparently this guy threatened Namek once - it's really strong in a way that scales well, and it probably isn't much harder than wishing one person back to life.

[ ] Wish: Metal Karen
-A spaceship body like Metal Cooler/The Makyo Star. The most critical aspects are ability to act as a perfect host for us, rejecting any evil controller, and fully concealing the Saiyan nature of our ki from the outside world. But we would really like it if it could teleport between star systems, included a Room of Spirit and Time, and had the ability to build and adapt bodies like the Makyo Star and Gero's lab could.
 
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Deathbybunnies said:
One problem with the hyperbolic time chamber was that it had a limited number of uses per person. If you don't get to SSJ2 in that time that's it, and you certainly won't reach the cap in the time left over.

Personally, I'm in favour of either removing Dandeer's magic from everyone without killing Jaron or Jaffur... or using the wish to get Ki Stealth after all! We've seen from our previous wish that wish effects are completely orthoganal to regular ki usage - this might be our only chance of getting it! Ideally in a form we can share - perhaps an effect that any Saiyan can use at-will? We'd have to ask Porunga if that's viable.

And, of course, with Ki Stealth comes unlimited safe training for SSJ2...
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Is that still a thing? I was pretty sure Vegeta went in again during super.
 
Pittauro said:
there's also one more thing: A time chamber that WE control means we control WHO and HOW MANY can try training for ssj and above.

At some point i want my ssj army, and most saiyans are VERY unlikely to go beyond FPSSJ even if you tell them how. It's not easy to trigger an epiphany after all.

Still, IF we get the chamber (and i assume it will still be a 2 at a time only, or little more. There will probably be some form of trade-off between people and time dilation i expect), we'll want to have people start training. Even the non-royal. We just need the Royals to try for ssj2 first.



It probably won't work. seems too easy, and part of the strenght of a fusion should be (in my opinion) in how you're combining all the knowledge, skills and abilities of two different people into one.

Even two masters of the same style we'll use them in different ways, and the sum of those skills SHOULD be much above what you'd get by simply joining their power levels and character sheets.
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The only reason it wouldn't work is that it seems to easy? I also share your opinion on the strength of fusion but it would just be a multiplier and that's it and that can still help.
QTesseract said:
Is that still a thing? I was pretty sure Vegeta went in again during super.
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he did apparently they can make improvements on the time chamber which is why they asked for a time chamber that kakara could customize.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
One problem with the hyperbolic time chamber was that it had a limited number of uses per person. If you don't get to SSJ2 in that time that's it, and you certainly won't reach the cap in the time left over.

Personally, I'm in favour of either removing Dandeer's magic from everyone without killing Jaron or Jaffur... or using the wish to get Ki Stealth after all! We've seen from our previous wish that wish effects are completely orthoganal to regular ki usage - this might be our only chance of getting it! Ideally in a form we can share - perhaps an effect that any Saiyan can use at-will? We'd have to ask Porunga if that's viable.

And, of course, with Ki Stealth comes unlimited safe training for SSJ2...
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they kinda removed the time limit in super. I mean, How many times have Goku and Vegeta trained in there? I remember at least one more time during the Goku Black Arc

Still, even if limited that's still a lot more than we have now.


...wait...couldn't we wish for the Ki of EVERYONE on Garenhuld to be unsensable from outside the planet (for everyone except the royal families maybe)?

Ki stealth is a nice idea too, though if it requires self-control...well, ssj2 and self control often don't get along.
 
Pittauro said:
they kinda removed the time limit in super. I mean, How many times have Goku and Vegeta trained in there? I remember at least one more time during the Goku Black Arc

Still, even if limited that's still a lot more than we have now.


...wait...couldn't we wish for the Ki of EVERYONE on Garenhuld to be unsensable from outside the planet (for everyone except the royal families maybe)?

Ki stealth is a nice idea too, though if it requires self-control...well, ssj2 and self control often don't get along.
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Ah, I never actually watched super - I just heard a lot about it.

Targeting the entire Saiyan race would cover that one Saiyan on the run too, which would be pretty sweet. The only problem is that it's quite likely the government would immediately be under threat from people going SSJ secretly - and this isn't the best of times.

Of course, if the Saiyans don't need to hide at low power levels from the Enemy, that raises the question of why the current system of government needs to stay intact anymore anyway. That might not be great for Kakara on a selfish level, though.
 
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No one has any input into becoming a moon-sized cyborg? We could be an evacuation plan. We could probably even take volunteer Namekians as supplementary batteries, and release them after fighting off the invasion fleet. It's like Spirit Saiyan and an insane level of Multiform. Think of the AP.
(Okay, in practice I expect an army of robot clones won't make us particularly better at training ourselves, but we can at least use them for teaching and combat. We could do so much with even a kinda-stupid-unless-remote-controlled robot army. Think of what it would look like to the NCE if we claimed to be Cooler.)
 
HoratioVonBecker said:
No one has any input into becoming a moon-sized cyborg? We could be an evacuation plan. We could probably even take volunteer Namekians as supplementary batteries, and release them after fighting off the invasion fleet. It's like Spirit Saiyan and an insane level of Multiform. Think of the AP.
(Okay, in practice I expect an army of robot clones won't make us particularly better at training ourselves, but we can at least use them for teaching and combat. We could do so much with even a kinda-stupid-unless-remote-controlled robot army. Think of what it would look like to the NCE if we claimed to be Cooler.)
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I assumed you were joking. I don't want to be a moon-sized cyborg. Being that large would have crippling social costs, remove any possibility of stealth in almost any circumstance, and probably have deleterious effects on Kakara's psyche.
 
HoratioVonBecker said:
No one has any input into becoming a moon-sized cyborg? We could be an evacuation plan. We could probably even take volunteer Namekians as supplementary batteries, and release them after fighting off the invasion fleet. It's like Spirit Saiyan and an insane level of Multiform. Think of the AP.
(Okay, in practice I expect an army of robot clones won't make us particularly better at training ourselves, but we can at least use them for teaching and combat. We could do so much with even a kinda-stupid-unless-remote-controlled robot army. Think of what it would look like to the NCE if we claimed to be Cooler.)
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Deathbybunnies said:
I assumed you were joking. I don't want to be a moon-sized cyborg. Being that large would have crippling social costs, remove any possibility of stealth in almost any circumstance, and probably have deleterious effects on Kakara's psyche.
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It also doesn't look that good on Kakara.

jokes aside, I would expect Kakara herself to be against it. Most players would be too. There's a point where perfect efficiency just isn't worth it to many.

Also I don't want Kakara to become a cyborg of any kind. She's a Saiyan, she already has a (relatively) easy route to godhood.
 
HoratioVonBecker said:
No one has any input into becoming a moon-sized cyborg? We could be an evacuation plan. We could probably even take volunteer Namekians as supplementary batteries, and release them after fighting off the invasion fleet. It's like Spirit Saiyan and an insane level of Multiform. Think of the AP.
(Okay, in practice I expect an army of robot clones won't make us particularly better at training ourselves, but we can at least use them for teaching and combat. We could do so much with even a kinda-stupid-unless-remote-controlled robot army. Think of what it would look like to the NCE if we claimed to be Cooler.)
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I understand the appeal of transhumanism full well, but any such decision would have to come from Kakara herself for me to support it, and it doesn't seem likely to. Overwriting her preferences on this would take a serious necessity for me to consider it, and I'm not really sure it's even a net positive.
 
Ah. See, I was thinking of the moon-sized cyborg body as just a host we can project to, and use as a base of operations/factory for more humanoid bodies/tool against this invasion. I wasn't thinking it'd be permanent, and even if it was, I was thinking that 'perfect host' would mean that we could project our real body anywhere inside it at any time.
It'd be a weird ghost-piloted spaceship/world, not a new self.
 
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Deathbybunnies said:
Being that large would have crippling social costs, remove any possibility of stealth in almost any circumstance, and probably have deleterious effects on Kakara's psyche.
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That's what avatar bodies are for. We'd still spend most of our time being humanoid and talking to friends, it would just be via remote-controlled robot Arcosian. (They even have tails - that can't be much worse than acclimatizing to Masque.)
And even if the robot bodies can't stealth, and teleporting doesn't solve everything we'd need stealth for, we can just go back to shade form/Bassoon/another host. We might even be able to grow ourselves a new Saiyan body, which some people considered worth a wish on its' own. We'd have options, is what I'm saying.
 
HoratioVonBecker said:
That's what avatar bodies are for. We'd still spend most of our time being humanoid and talking to friends, it would just be via remote-controlled robot Arcosian. (They even have tails - that can't be much worse than acclimatizing to Masque.)
And even if the robot bodies can't stealth, and teleporting doesn't solve everything we'd need stealth for, we can just go back to shade form/Bassoon/another host. We might even be able to grow ourselves a new Saiyan body, which some people considered worth a wish on its' own. We'd have options, is what I'm saying.
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The problem is not really that the idea is not effective or efficient. It's more that players, and Kakara as she has been characterized until now, will never go for it.

Do you think Kakara WANTS to become a robot? How would the exiles react? What about psychological side effects?

It's simply not the kind of story most of us want
 
Pittauro said:
The problem is not really that the idea is not effective or efficient. It's more that players, and Kakara as she has been characterized until now, will never go for it.
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Hm. Why not? Kakara has ambitions. We haven't really tested how far we can get while projecting, but if it's a perfect host, it might let us park the thing in orbit around Garenhuld's sun while we spend our lives on Garenhuld. (We'd wanted a planet to let Tamar's fleet use - maybe it could help with that.)
Pittauro said:
Do you think Kakara WANTS to become a robot? How would the exiles react? What about psychological side effects?
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Arcosian robot form is mostly so we can fight while minimizing infohazards. A means to an end, not a lifestyle choice. It'd need training so we were actually decent at fighting with it, but hopefully not more than it'd take to adapt to Katchin armor.
If it wasn't clear, I was thinking Metal Karen would probably have a mindscape somewhat like Jaffur's but even emptier (no native mind), and designed so Evil creatures cannot enter. We'd live there in the control center as a shade, or we'd manifest very freely inside the space station, depending on what we wanted to do at the time. Most probably, we could have Namekian friends join us to socialize/enjoy the luxurious apartment space/hide out in case of invasion.
I don't think our minds would change much, but we would have a lot more time to train with a physical body, and we'd have a factory to produce weapons/drones/prison cells (because this might let us win nonlethally).

Let me put it this way: If I said I had a single wish that would give Kakara unlimited manifestation time, and a spaceship big enough to evacuate Namek in an emergency, and a really good vault for fighting the NCE commander in, all without upsetting Porunga, would you vote for it? Would it at least be on your shortlist, next to 1) a Room of Spirit and Time (which might also be possible to use as that dueling vault, and might be possible to include in my wish), and 2) freeing Garenhuld?
 
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HoratioVonBecker said:
Hm. Why not? Kakara has ambitions. We haven't really tested how far we can get while projecting, but if it's a perfect host, it might let us park the thing in orbit around Garenhuld's sun while we spend our lives on Garenhuld. (We'd wanted a planet to let Tamar's fleet use - maybe it could help with that.)

Arcosian robot form is mostly so we can fight while minimizing infohazards. A means to an end, not a lifestyle choice. It'd need training so we were actually decent at fighting with it, but hopefully not more than it'd take to adapt to Katchin armor.
If it wasn't clear, I was thinking Metal Karen would probably have a mindscape somewhat like Jaffur's but even emptier (no native mind), and designed so Evil creatures cannot enter. We'd live there in the control center as a shade, or we'd manifest very freely inside the space station, depending on what we wanted to do at the time. Most probably, we could have Namekian friends join us to socialize/enjoy the luxurious apartment space/hide out in case of invasion.
I don't think our minds would change much, but we would have a lot more time to train with a physical body, and we'd have a factory to produce weapons/drones/prison cells (because this might let us win nonlethally).

Let me put it this way: If I said I had a single wish that would give Kakara unlimited manifestation time, and a spaceship big enough to evacuate Namek in an emergency, and a really good vault for fighting the NCE commander in, all without upsetting Porunga, would you vote for it? Would it at least be on your shortlist, next to 1) a Room of Spirit and Time (which might also be possible to use as that dueling vault, and might be possible to include in my wish), and 2) freeing Garenhuld?
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It wouldn't be for me. I'm not really concerned with 2 and 3, so it would have to be done on the basis of #1, and I wasn't convinced that that was our best option for the wish when we couldn't manifest at all. If we can't get the Room of Spirit & Time or Katchin room, I would much rather wish for potara earrings, or a copy of Future!Bulma's book / Present!Bulma's blueprints (if we didn't expect to be able to ask in heaven / it ends up not being possible to bring notes out of otherworld), or Dr. Gero's stuff (especially the infinite energy reactor). I might even choose a direct combat ability like regeneration or the like, although by less of a margin if so.
 
QTesseract said:
It wouldn't be for me. I'm not really concerned with 2 and 3, so it would have to be done on the basis of #1, and I wasn't convinced that that was our best option for the wish when we couldn't manifest at all. If we can't get the Room of Spirit & Time or Katchin room, I would much rather wish for potara earrings, or a copy of Future!Bulma's book / Present!Bulma's blueprints (if we didn't expect to be able to ask in heaven / it ends up not being possible to bring notes out of otherworld), or Dr. Gero's stuff (especially the infinite energy reactor). I might even choose a direct combat ability like regeneration or the like, although by less of a margin if so.
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Gero has some really cool stuff, but I don't really know why you'd pick Potara - that seems like it'd tick off the kais, while not being especially useful. (It's only a one-time powerup, without giving much support base for more.)
I don't know what the Bulmas had that was on par with Gero, but I'm open to learning. Enlighten me?
 
HoratioVonBecker said:
Gero has some really cool stuff, but I don't really know why you'd pick Potara - that seems like it'd tick off the kais, while not being especially useful. (It's only a one-time powerup, without giving much support base for more.)
I don't know what the Bulmas had that was on par with Gero, but I'm open to learning. Enlighten me?
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Potara wear off unless you're a kaioshin, and Potara Fusion is hilariously strong. Reminder that Super Buuhan was completely humiliated by Vegito even without Vegito needing to transform.

Bulma did everything, and has plenty of stuff we would want even with the ban on timetravel, like the hilariously fast spaceship the Senzus have - we could make more of those. Or a gravity Chamber. Or the Armor she designed, which could keep up with SSjB Vegeta. Or the Super Dragon Radar, since iirc you wanted to grab those at some point. Potentially even the Metamo Ring (An artificial Fusion Device), if she ended up making that in this timeline, not to mention whatever she's come up with in the hundreds of years since she's been dead.
 
QTesseract said:
Potara wear off unless you're a kaioshin, and Potara Fusion is hilariously strong. Reminder that Super Buuhan was completely humiliated by Vegito even without Vegito needing to transform.

Bulma did everything, and has plenty of stuff we would want even with the ban on timetravel, like the hilariously fast spaceship the Senzus have - we could make more of those. Or a gravity Chamber. Or the Armor she designed, which could keep up with SSjB Vegeta. Or the Super Dragon Radar, since iirc you wanted to grab those at some point. Potentially even the Metamo Ring (An artificial Fusion Device), if she ended up making that in this timeline, not to mention whatever she's come up with in the hundreds of years since she's been dead.
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Hm, speaking of rings, how do you suppose a Time Ring would interact with visions? It explicitly prevents timeline changes from affecting you, but visions work via timeline shenanigans according to Poptart.
 
You know... we could go for the big one. To paraphrase Shenron from TFS, "nut up and ask for immortality".

QTesseract said:
You don't need to go to Chronoa to get a time ring. Gowasu has them.
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Oh, fair enough. I think it would be utterly useless to us, given that visions don't prevent us from being on the "main" timeline, but I suppose obtaining one is technically possible then.
 
QTesseract said:
Potara wear off unless you're a kaioshin, and Potara Fusion is hilariously strong. Reminder that Super Buuhan was completely humiliated by Vegito even without Vegito needing to transform.
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I thought that was more due to it being Goku and Vegeta than to being Potara - there was no real indication it was different from regular fusion dance aside from speed and not offending Vegeta's sensibilities.
QTesseract said:
Or the Armor she designed, which could keep up with SSjB Vegeta.
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Haven't seen it. Keep up with him how?
QTesseract said:
Or the Super Dragon Radar, since iirc you wanted to grab those at some point.
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Still need translation for the wish, and a way to access Universe 6.
QTesseract said:
Potentially even the Metamo Ring (An artificial Fusion Device), if she ended up making that in this timeline, not to mention whatever she's come up with in the hundreds of years since she's been dead.
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So probably better than Potara, at least.
 
HoratioVonBecker said:
I thought that was more due to it being Goku and Vegeta than to being Potara - there was no real indication it was different from regular fusion dance aside from speed and not offending Vegeta's sensibilities.

Haven't seen it. Keep up with him how?

Still need translation for the wish, and a way to access Universe 6.

So probably better than Potara, at least.
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Well, Yes, some of it is due to their power. But Super Buuhan was stronger than FP Gohan who was stronger than ssj3 Goku, so even if Vegito was only barely stronger than Super Buu without stransforming (unlikely) and we take the absolute least favorable references, that's at least a 5x boost that stacks with everything else we have as long as we have someone with equivalent power to us nearby. Potara is also stronger than fusion dance, both in allowing longer fusions and in the resulting fusion being stronger; this is confirmed multiple times in both anime and manga, btw.

Sure, but we're a seer. It would be annoying to get fluent but I bet we could figure out any given wish' wording. If nothing else, we could at least copy Zamasu's super immortality.
 
I'm not really a fan of the Potara wish because making use of it involves a significant amount of setup. And if we have time to set up a fusion worth doing, then we have time to go Spirit Saiyan.

I would much rather go for a more "immediate" powerup, or solve a problem. Ideally, solve a problem that we have no other viable solutions for (Ki Stealth, other ways of unlocking SSJ2 safely (and using it!), arguably Dandeer, though she can probably be beaten by getting past any traps on our body and getting strong enough to transport her to the Senzus.)
 
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