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Wait a minute. How exactly does PL bonus scale? Bulma Kane was holding her own against someone five times stronger than her, which means she was either beating a +800, or directly neutralizing it somehow.
I don't remember this?
Okay, I'm apparently confusing two different events. I vaguely remember the ritual now that I'm remembering Old Kai as the guy who was locked in the sword, whereas I don't think the Guru did anything in the manga except die and use the Dragonballs. I was assuming the Guru's unlocking was some kind of anime or movie powerup, and I have no idea what it did but I assume it's worth 1AP.
Gury laid his massive hand on Gohan's head, Gohan had a glowy-aura-woosh effect I think, and his "potential was unlocked". I assumed this was the powerup you were after all along - I don't remember the Kai's version, unless you mean the Mystic Gohan thing?

Team Fighting is resolved as the currently-leading teammate's Team Fighting roll plus a teammate bonus. Each non-lead teammate adds 5+[half their Team Fighting skill] to the teammate bonus. Teammate bonus is capped at [lead teammate's Team Fighting modifier] x 2.
Resulting in-universe implications: Team Fighting is a viable way of assisting in combat way above your power level. 3-5 people is generally the optimal group size, without Talents or Traits, but it scales up with skill - a Legendary leader could effectively coordinate 20 Unlearned teammates, even if it isn't their specialty.
Implications for Multiform: Tenshinhan must have had a Trait or something, because you'd need Legendary Team Fighting for the teammate bonus to even possibly match a 50% PL drop against a peer-PL opponent. It's really good for supporting other people who are Team Fighting, though.
I don't think this is necessary? Team Fighting is just the Hand-to-Hand skill rolled when you are fighting in a team, and the obvious benefit of having two fighters punching every time the opponent has one fighter punching is trivial to scale up.
 
Not the Guru, an Unlocking specialist. The Old Kai rebuilt their magical tradition pretty much from the ground up, and there are now mages on Namek who practice it. It seems likely to me that whoever we find may be even better than the Old Kai, because magic seems to benefit quite a lot from institutional knowledge in this setting.

They explicitly have - remember Bassoon talking about Great Man history?
I don't know if I'd go as far as better than old kai, who brought Gohan from more or less basic ssj2 to PEAK ssj2 strenght/stronger than ssj3 goku.

I DO expect them to be better than the old Guru though.
Do we have any evidence of there being "unlocking specialists" on Namek who have a different magical Unlock than Guru of old?

Further, do you have any evidence of this:
That supposition seems entirely out of nowhere and disconnected from discussion of what the Namekians are capable of performing. The resources for a Kai, a literal god of creation, seem like they have potential to be just a bit higher than entirely-mortal regenerating lizard-slug-people.
I think they told us in a previous update, or maybe a poptart post. I'll see if i can find the quote. Namekian usually use three different schools of magic. "Creation", "unlocking" and i forgot the third one. Bassoon is a bit unusual in that he uses "movement".

Unlocking IS by far the less practiced of the three, but there are a few mages who use it.
Wait a minute. How exactly does PL bonus scale? Bulma Kane was holding her own against someone five times stronger than her, which means she was either beating a +800, or directly neutralizing it somehow.
one or more traits? a pseudo-ultra-instinct? special style bonuses? there are a few possibilities.

Okay, I'm apparently confusing two different events. I vaguely remember the ritual now that I'm remembering Old Kai as the guy who was locked in the sword, whereas I don't think the Guru did anything in the manga except die and use the Dragonballs. I was assuming the Guru's unlocking was some kind of anime or movie powerup, and I have no idea what it did but I assume it's worth 1AP.
both anime and manga Guru "unlocked the potential" of gohan and krillin. No idea by how much though.
 
I don't remember this?
It was during the tournament; Cynthia's second-to-last fight. Bulma was at around one thousand when the tournament cap was five, but she was holding her own until Cynthia internalized the "listen to your instincts" lesson Bulma was simultaneously giving. It's a great scene, but apparently gives an insanely misleading idea of skill-versus-power in this system. Which is kind of a problem, since it's one of the most memorable fights in the Quest!
Gury laid his massive hand on Gohan's head, Gohan had a glowy-aura-woosh effect I think, and his "potential was unlocked". I assumed this was the powerup you were after all along - I don't remember the Kai's version, unless you mean the Mystic Gohan thing?
There was apparently some confusion, which I was trying to clear up.
I don't think this is necessary? Team Fighting is just the Hand-to-Hand skill rolled when you are fighting in a team, and the obvious benefit of having two fighters punching every time the opponent has one fighter punching is trivial to scale up.
The amount of benefit isn't obvious, which makes it hard to prioritize for training.
I don't want to go to Hell for a while.
Then please vote for Scout Camp? It's specifically prep for going scouting!
 
Bassoon clears his throat and falls into his historian voice. "Well, bear in mind that, as well as I believe we've recovered from it, the Namekian magical tradition very much did need to recover from the Cataclysm. Grand Elder Guru was the only survivor of the Dragon Clan, and while he is a beloved and well-remembered figure in our people's history, at the time he was, um..." He coughs. "...a complete and utter novice."

You blink. "Wait, really?"

"Yes," he says.

You shake yourself. "Really?!"

"Yes, really!" he replies, frowning at you. "Everybody starts somewhere!"

"I know," you reply, staring down at the ground in bafflement. "It's just...our legends-"

"Yeah, ours too," growls Bassoon. "But he wasn't born old and awesomely wise."

"I mean, I wasn't thinking about those, but yeah, that'll do."

quote 1: old guru was a novice
"Kidding, kidding," you chuckles, waving your outrage away. "Stereotypes. Anyway, I'd say that Namekian magic focuses on three main spheres." He starts counting off on his fingers. "Creation is the big one, with healing as a secondary focus. Then there's unlocking. That one's pretty much down to Guru." He smirks. "Great Man history is a lie unless you're less than three hundred years away from one guy completely rebuilding your magical traditions from scratch."

"So what sorts of things do you get up to?" you ask.

"Creation mages are in a lot of demand here at home," he says. "They make everything, so we keep them pretty busy. A fair few head out into the galaxy, though; there's always demand for people who can just make something. Healers, likewise, on both counts, although there are fewer of them. Unlockers...not so much. There genuinely aren't a lot of dedicated unlockers. It's more popular as a secondary school. They don't tend to map as easily; if somebody can do it, they do, but it doesn't generally indicate something about how their life will go."

quote 2: Guru is probably the best unlocker, though there are a few others. Very few specialize in it apparently.
 
[X] Plan: Last Month Rush
-[X] Sight (2 AP)
--[X] Continue Your Training (1 AP):
--[X] Looking Abroad (1 AP) [The Invasion Fleet, especially the leader]:
-[X] Training (3 AP)
--[X] Spirit Bomb Studies/Experimentation (1 Training AP)
--[X] To Go Beyond (1 Free AP) [Perfect Multiform]
--[X] To Go Beyond (1 Free AP) [Ki Sense]:
--[X] Broken Precedent (2 AP):
-[X] Social (2 AP)
--[X] Strange Sister (1 AP):
--[X] General Training (2 Free AP):
--[X] Unlock Potential (1 AP)
-[X] The Outside World (2 AP)
--[X] Adventures (2 AP):
--[X] Instruction (1 Free AP)
-[X] A Cause (1 AP)
--[X] Improve a Skill (1 AP) [Team Fighting]: Baring an unexpected decapitation strike against Dandeer, Kakara can expect to be fighting against Dandeer's mindslaves alongside the Senzus and whoever else escaped the spell.

I tried to choose stuff that we need to be on Namek for. We will be stuck with Bassoon for up to 10 months. We can spend some free time with him during that. In fact, I could be convinced to drop Instruction in order to add another AP to something else.

Otherwise, we improve Team Fighting while we still have a group to train alongside.
We give General Training, see about Unlocking our Potential, and prep Perika for our months long absence.
We train Perika (because we need her to be there obviously) and we train Genki Dama (because we need people willing to donate Ki) and Golden Oozaru (because we need the Katchin Dome).
Also, either could give Perika something to shoot for in our absense.​
I've also avoided Multi-Form and Style stuff because we can do both on Bassoon's ship.

Any questions?

*plan edited to replace golden oozeru with multiform per constructive criticism.*

Edited second time in attempt to get tally to count it a vote I saw made.
 
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Okay! I've been convinced about Potential unlocking.

I'll be back soon with a new plan that focuses on what we need to be on Namek to actually accomplish.
Could I get you to support Preparing for a Sea Change? It covers a lot of the same stuff, but has imo a much more reasonable time frame on when we want to go to the otherworld.

E: Saw your post.
 
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Why the double-down on Strange Sister? Looks acceptable otherwise, although I'd appreciate a point on Ki Sense training so we can go scouting with it.
 
It was during the tournament; Cynthia's second-to-last fight. Bulma was at around one thousand when the tournament cap was five, but she was holding her own until Cynthia internalized the "listen to your instincts" lesson Bulma was simultaneously giving. It's a great scene, but apparently gives an insanely misleading idea of skill-versus-power in this system. Which is kind of a problem, since it's one of the most memorable fights in the Quest!
Given that Endivan beat a Super Saiyan without ascending himself, I think the lesson to learn is that top-tier fighters who've dedicated their lives to training and fighting can rack up some massive bonuses through sheer skill. I expect Elite and Legendary Talents and Traits came into play, heavily.
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by KnightDisciple on Sep 25, 2019 at 3:55 PM, finished with 56 posts and 12 votes.

  • [X] Plan Crash Training
    -[X] Sight - 2 AP (2)
    --[X] Looking Abroad (1 AP) [The Invasion Fleet, especially the leader]
    --[X] Continue Your Training (1 AP)
    -[X] Training 3 AP (3+4)
    --[X] Improve a Skill (1 AP) [Team Fighting]
    ---[X] Do this before anything else
    --[X] To Go Beyond (1 AP) [Perfect Multiform]
    -[X] A Cause - 1 AP (1)
    [X] Plan Scout Camp
    [X] Plan Perika Smash
    [X] Plan Preparations and Foundations
    -[X] The Sight (2 AP automatically Assigned)
    --[X] Continue Your Training (1 AP)
    --[X] Looking Abroad (1 AP) The Invasion Fleet Plans and Composition]: Information on the movement and plans of the invasion force. Goal is to understand how they're attacking and with who/what, with secondary focus on as much exact "when" as possible.
    -[X]Training (3 AP automatically Assigned)
    --[X] To Go Beyond (1 AP) [Perfect Multiform]
    --[X] Style Training (1 AP) [Tien Style]
    --[X] Improve a Skill (1 AP) [Team Fighting]
    -[X] Social (2 AP automatically Assigned)
    --[X] Strange Sister x2 (2 AP)
    -[X] The Outside World (2 AP automatically Assigned)
    --[X] Instruction (1 AP)
    --[X] Historical Insights (1 AP)
    -[X] A Cause (1 AP)
    --[X] Use Sight (Past Sight) to view Tien, and other masters of Tien Style from Garenhuld, to get a better understanding of how the masters practice this style, to give ourselves more direction. Having our Style be stronger means we have a better chance of taking on Dandeer's thralls in a non-lethal manner, especially if we eventually unlock Perfect Multiform.
    -[X] Free AP (5 AP free to use anywhere)
    --[X] Broken Precedent (2 AP)
    --[X] General Training (2 AP)
    [x] PLAN BEST OF BOTH! (i hope)
    [x] PLAN BEST OF BOTH!
    [X] Plan Preparing for a Sea Change
    -[X] Sight - 2 AP (2)
    --[X] Looking Abroad (1 AP) The Invasion Fleet, especially the leader
    --[X] Continue Your Training (1 AP)
    -[X] Training 3 AP
    --[X] (Write in) Spirit Bomb Studies (1 AP)
    --[X] Broken Precedent (2 AP)
    -[X] Social- 2 AP
    --[X] Strange Sister (1 AP)
    --[X]Potential Unlocking (1 AP)
    -[X] The Outside World - 2 AP
    --[X] (Write in) Specific Historical Insights: Powerful Galactic figures since the days of the Z Fighters
    --[X] Instruction (1 AP)
    -[X] A Cause (1 AP)
    --[X] Improve a Skill (1 AP) [Team Fighting]
    -[X] Free AP - 5 AP
    --[X] To Go Beyond (2 AP): Multiform x2
    --[X] Improve A Skill (2 AP): Spirit Saiyan x2
    --[X] Improve a Skill (1 AP) Ki Refinement
    [X] Plan: Last Month Rush
    -[X] Sight (2 AP)
    --[X] Continue Your Training (1 AP)
    --[X] Looking Abroad (1 AP) [The Invasion Fleet, especially the leader]
    -[X] Training 3 AP
    --[X] Improve a Skill (1 AP) [Team Fighting]
    --[X] Improve a Skill (1 Free AP) [Golden Oozaru]:
    --[X] To Go Beyond (1 Free AP) [Ki Sense]:
    --[X] Broken Precedent (2 AP)
    -[X] Social- 2 AP
    --[X] Strange Sister (1 AP)
    --[X] General Training (2 Free AP):
    --[X] Unlock Potential (1 AP)
    -[X] The Outside World - 2 AP
    --[X] Adventures (2 AP):
    --[X] Instruction (1 Free AP)
    -[X] A Cause (1 AP)
    --[X] Improve a Skill (1 AP) [Team Fighting]: Baring an unexpected decapitation strike against Dandeer, Kakara can expect to be fighting against Dandeer's mindslaves alongside the Senzus and whoever else escaped the spell.
 
Given that Endivan beat a Super Saiyan without ascending himself, I think the lesson to learn is that top-tier fighters who've dedicated their lives to training and fighting can rack up some massive bonuses through sheer skill. I expect Elite and Legendary Talents and Traits came into play, heavily.
He was definitely a legendary warrior with multiple elite-legendary skills. He also had a pretty big willpower push.
 
[X] Plan Scout Camp
[X] Plan Preparing for a Sea Change
[X] Plan: Last Month Rush

With the latest update, @Indalecio, you might want to take a look at Last Month Rush. It's got a Gold Oozaru mastery attempt instead of Multiform, but it's otherwise pretty close to Scout Camp, and in fact I think I prefer it.
 
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I'm not sure we actually CAN improve golden oozaru right now.
I feel you and if @PoptartProdigy confirms, I will switch it out. For now, I'm basing it on this from the character sheet.

Golden Oozaru, Grade One. You have discovered the secret of the Oozaru form, and transformed into a Super Saiyan whilst in it. This form does the same things to your durability, speed, and strength as normal Oozaru does. You suspect that if the Masquerade ever falls and Scions are permitted to try and break through to higher transformations, you will be able to use them as an Oozaru as well. Currently you can't use this form to its fullest extent even in the Training Hall for fear of breaking the wards, but fortunately, you can still modulate how much of the Super Saiyan boost you access.

The first highlighted portion strongly implies Golden Oozaru can be improved upon. The second very strongly implies that Kakara has never fully tested the form. I figure the worst case scenario is Kakara figuring only out her limits. Which, while disapointing, wouldn't be a complete waste.
 
Well, according to what Poptart's said, it clearly isn't as effortless as basic Super Saiyan. I think this is just endurance-training it.
I'm not sure you can really endurance train a form in 20 minutes?

The first highlighted portion strongly implies Golden Oozaru can be improved upon. The second very strongly implies that Kakara has never fully tested the form. I figure the worst case scenario is Kakara figuring only out her limits. Which, while disapointing, wouldn't be a complete waste.
We fought as a Full-Power Golden Oozaru against Dazarel, so we've done it before.
 
the only thing we could possibly do about the golden oozaru is try to develop a fix for the speed, though we don't know if that's possible. In terms of power level it should be maxed, as it's basically adding the FPSSJ boost to the Oozaru base (which is double the normal base)
 
Do we actually know that what he did is not in any way, shape, form, or idea rooted in or connected to his very nature as a Kai, and indeed as one of the higher-order Kais (one responsible for a sector of a Universe)?
Yes. For one, none of the other kais can do it, for another, well, he says as much. The Manga is even more explicit iirc but I just dug through 18 episodes of buu arc looking for this so you're welcome for what you have :p.
 
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