HoratioVonBecker
Imperfectly Aligned
Dangerous assumption. Humans don't have power caps.
Alright, collecting my plans. Gimme half an hour before the unlock, please?
Dragon Ball: After the End
Alright, collecting my plans. Gimme half an hour before the unlock, please?
- Location
- Italy
true, but it's rare for humans to go above the billion mark. Tien was certainly stronger than that by that point, his students? not likely.
by the way we posted nearly at the same time, there's a post of mine right before this one if you didn't see it
HoratioVonBecker
Imperfectly Aligned
...Oh, right. @PoptartProdigy, Spirit Saiyan Speedrun Interrupt is a pretty good plan, but I don't think we have the mechanical setup to implement it, unless it's an event vote at the end of the month. Supporting that with, say, doubled-up General Training is something I'd be quite interested in. Can we please have a ruling on that before the unlock?
KnightDisciple
Love God. Do Right. Fear No Man.
- Location
- Midwest, USA
I think trying to hell-crawl right now is a mistake. I'm not actually certain what value it would hold in the future, either?
I'm not against getting SSJ2 at all but I just don't want to see us mono-focus on 1-2 "shiny" power-ups (Perfect Multi-Form, SSJ2+, Spirit Saiyan) and disregard other options. We've seen repeatedly that the universe has a multitude of esoteric things out there, so broadening our abilities and skill set is 110% vital.
HoratioVonBecker
Imperfectly Aligned
[ ] Scouting Is Dangerous
[ ] Continue Your Training (Sight AP #1)
[ ] Looking Abroad: NCE Invasion (Sight AP #2)
[ ] Improve a Skill: Team Fighting (Cause AP)
-[ ] Should be done first. If this training period still isn't enough to make Combat tick over, reassign the Training AP until it is enough.
[ ] Go Beyond: Ki Sense (double down, Training AP #1 and #2)
[ ] Go Beyond: Multiform (Training AP #3)
[ ] Broken Precedent (Free AP #1 and #2)
[ ] General Training (Free AP #3 and #4)
[ ] Strange Sister (Free AP #5)
[ ] Potential Unlocking (Social AP #1)
[ ] Strengthen Host Bond (Social AP #2)
[ ] Instruction (double down, Outside World AP #1 and #2)
Summary: Lots and lots of training people. Has Potential Unlocking (@Deathbybunnies, please at least consider adding that if you still prefer your plan), has a social with Perika, has training Bassoon, has Perfect Multiform research and an attempt to get machine sense before we head out to do scouting, and so forth. It kind of assumes we'll be going with Bassoon, or at least that we'll wind up with him again, but even if we do the Hell Speedrun instead, he'll be safer for all the training we give him.
[ ] Last Chance Workshop
[ ] Looking Abroad: SS2 Training (Sight AP #1)
[ ] Looking Abroad: NCE Invasion (Sight AP #2)
[ ] Improve a Skill: Team Fighting (Training AP #1)
-[ ] Should be done first. If this training period still isn't enough to make Combat tick over, reassign the other Training AP until it is enough.
[ ] Go Beyond: Multiform (double down, Training AP #2 and #3)
[ ] Research Project: SS2 (Free AP #1 and #2)
[ ] Broken Precedent (Free AP #3 and #4)
[ ] Potential Unlocking (Free AP #5)
[ ] Strange Sister (Cause AP)
[ ] General Training (Social AP #1 and #2)
[ ] Instruction (double down, Outside World AP #1 and #2)
Summary: Assumes we're going to try the Hell Speedrun, and that it doesn't require an AP. Also presumes that some basic Spirit Bomb experimentation is trivial, so spending an AP on it would basically just mean training it. Uses the Cause AP in a way I quite like - "I will make time to listen to you; I will never be like Dandeer" - but that also needs a ruling from @PoptartProdigy.
[ ] Full Dojo
[ ] Looking Abroad: Tien Training (Sight AP #1)
[ ] Looking Abroad: NCE Invasion (Sight AP #2)
[ ] Improve a Skill: Team Fighting (Cause AP)
-[ ] Should be done first. If this training period still isn't enough to make Combat tick over, reassign the other Training AP until it is enough.
[ ] Improve A Style: Tien Style (Training AP #1)
[ ] Broken Precedent (Training AP #2 and #3)
[ ] Go Beyond: Multiform (Free AP #1)
[ ] General Training (double down, Free AP #2, #3, #4, and #5)
[ ] Strange Sister (Social AP #1)
[ ] Potential Unlocking (Social AP #2)
[ ] Instruction (double down, Outside World AP #1 and #2)
Summary: The only plan I've seen so far that doesn't have Broken Precedent, though it does have a Perika social, and a whole lot of training folks. So much training folks. I expect an awful lot of mechanical synergy from this - Kakara is spending almost every moment learning, teaching, or analyzing Tien Style and associated techniques. It also might be the best way to get buy-in for the Spirit Saiyan in the first place. Only worry is that Perika will have her breakthrough outside a training dome, which could get her killed by the Enemy. On the other hand, dragon balls!
EDIT: Oh, I forgot the Cause AP. I guess I'll trade the Tien Style doubling for Broken Precedent.
[ ] Continue Your Training (Sight AP #1)
[ ] Looking Abroad: NCE Invasion (Sight AP #2)
[ ] Improve a Skill: Team Fighting (Cause AP)
-[ ] Should be done first. If this training period still isn't enough to make Combat tick over, reassign the Training AP until it is enough.
[ ] Go Beyond: Ki Sense (double down, Training AP #1 and #2)
[ ] Go Beyond: Multiform (Training AP #3)
[ ] Broken Precedent (Free AP #1 and #2)
[ ] General Training (Free AP #3 and #4)
[ ] Strange Sister (Free AP #5)
[ ] Potential Unlocking (Social AP #1)
[ ] Strengthen Host Bond (Social AP #2)
[ ] Instruction (double down, Outside World AP #1 and #2)
Summary: Lots and lots of training people. Has Potential Unlocking (@Deathbybunnies, please at least consider adding that if you still prefer your plan), has a social with Perika, has training Bassoon, has Perfect Multiform research and an attempt to get machine sense before we head out to do scouting, and so forth. It kind of assumes we'll be going with Bassoon, or at least that we'll wind up with him again, but even if we do the Hell Speedrun instead, he'll be safer for all the training we give him.
[ ] Last Chance Workshop
[ ] Looking Abroad: SS2 Training (Sight AP #1)
[ ] Looking Abroad: NCE Invasion (Sight AP #2)
[ ] Improve a Skill: Team Fighting (Training AP #1)
-[ ] Should be done first. If this training period still isn't enough to make Combat tick over, reassign the other Training AP until it is enough.
[ ] Go Beyond: Multiform (double down, Training AP #2 and #3)
[ ] Research Project: SS2 (Free AP #1 and #2)
[ ] Broken Precedent (Free AP #3 and #4)
[ ] Potential Unlocking (Free AP #5)
[ ] Strange Sister (Cause AP)
[ ] General Training (Social AP #1 and #2)
[ ] Instruction (double down, Outside World AP #1 and #2)
Summary: Assumes we're going to try the Hell Speedrun, and that it doesn't require an AP. Also presumes that some basic Spirit Bomb experimentation is trivial, so spending an AP on it would basically just mean training it. Uses the Cause AP in a way I quite like - "I will make time to listen to you; I will never be like Dandeer" - but that also needs a ruling from @PoptartProdigy.
[ ] Full Dojo
[ ] Looking Abroad: Tien Training (Sight AP #1)
[ ] Looking Abroad: NCE Invasion (Sight AP #2)
[ ] Improve a Skill: Team Fighting (Cause AP)
-[ ] Should be done first. If this training period still isn't enough to make Combat tick over, reassign the other Training AP until it is enough.
[ ] Improve A Style: Tien Style (Training AP #1)
[ ] Broken Precedent (Training AP #2 and #3)
[ ] Go Beyond: Multiform (Free AP #1)
[ ] General Training (double down, Free AP #2, #3, #4, and #5)
[ ] Strange Sister (Social AP #1)
[ ] Potential Unlocking (Social AP #2)
[ ] Instruction (double down, Outside World AP #1 and #2)
Summary: The only plan I've seen so far that doesn't have Broken Precedent, though it does have a Perika social, and a whole lot of training folks. So much training folks. I expect an awful lot of mechanical synergy from this - Kakara is spending almost every moment learning, teaching, or analyzing Tien Style and associated techniques. It also might be the best way to get buy-in for the Spirit Saiyan in the first place. Only worry is that Perika will have her breakthrough outside a training dome, which could get her killed by the Enemy. On the other hand, dragon balls!
EDIT: Oh, I forgot the Cause AP. I guess I'll trade the Tien Style doubling for Broken Precedent.
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- Location
- Academy City
- Pronouns
- They
Can I get you to take a raincheck on this? I'm also pro going through hell, as I've advocated before, but I think this is premature for 3 reasons, 1 major and 2 minor.
1. We are on a time limit. We could only spend so long continuously in Otherworld without leaving the Namekians to their own devices, which wouldn't normally be a huge issue, but is when combined with:
2. Our first run through hell will be the easiest. The first time through, nobody will have seen us coming, nobody will be sure what we are, and nobody will be sure what we can do. The second time through, anyone who wanted to take a swing at us the first time but couldn't is suddenly able to do so, and they'll know the details of any fights we got into on our first run. If we haven't improved correspondingly, we could well die the second time through even if we were fine the first, and when combined with #1 meaning that we only have so much time to train...
the third, and biggest reason, is as follows:
3. We could be safer. This always applies, yes, but I'm going to argue that it is especially true right now. We have a lot of low hanging fruit we can do to make this journey safer, such as:
3a. Research. Kid Buu was the strongest mortal the universe had ever seen, but has that remained true in the last couple hundred years? We have The Sight and Bassoon here; we are well situated to scout out all the potentially powerful or gimmicky mortals in hell, so we don't get surprised.
3b. Mental Protection. I think entering hell without first training our mental defenses is foolish.
3c. Power Jumps. We're close to Perfect Multiform, SSj2, and potentially multiform spirit bombs, any and all of which will vastly increase our ability to survive should, say, we run out of Namekian Spirit Bomb Power 2/3 of the way through or something. Unlike generically getting stronger we know time spent now will be highly efficient at improving our strength in a large jump.
3d. Training Spirit Bomb. I would really, really, rather not rely on Genki Dama [Unlearned] for a plan that involves maintaining spirit saiyan for unprecedented amounts of time.
The payoff isn't going away, and the risk can, so I think taking a short rain check on this is worthwhile.
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- Location
- Italy
trying right now might be the wrond decision. It's hard to be sure when we don't really know what's waiting for us in hell, not knowing if a speed-run is possible or if it will take months to go through it.
The value it holds should be obvious though. If we reach heaven we can be trained by the z-warriors, They could tell us how to achieve literally any super saiyan form from ssj2 to ssj god (and maybe they can even use the ritual on us directly), they could help us develop a style, teach us ancient lost techniques like the fusion dance or the mafuuba/evil containment wave, give us informations about the enemy's nature or possible allies we might find in the galaxy (the androids, frieza..)...the possibilities are endless.
i see your points. It's certainly true that we're close to at least 2 (ssj2 and multiform) major power boosts, possibly potential unlocking too, and if we trained genkidama a bit we might actually be able to hold onto that power for longer than the 1 hour we have right now.
Still, couldn't we try to contact Gohan and Yemma to ask 1)how long should it take us through hell and 2)a few tips about ssj2?* We can stay in Otherworld for a few minutes before the barrier sends us away after all.
@PoptartProdigy Can we try to contact Gohan/Yemma by traveling to the otherworld? how many AP would it take?
EDIT * 3) how strong do they think we should be before trying?
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- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Why did you quote me?
KnightDisciple
Love God. Do Right. Fear No Man.
- Location
- Midwest, USA
...Fudgemuffins.
I meant to say that I am fine changing the wording to be, like "the invasion force" or whatnot. The essence of the action should hold fairly true. I'm not sure how that got lost in the shuffle...
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
Two main problems: First, I suspect that this Guru, who is a different Guru who IIRC is much younger, and doesn't know all the stuff the old one did (something about them losing all their magical knowledge, I think?) won't know how to do this. Second, given that Gohan was nowhere near his 15 million cap when he did this, I don't believe that it will interact well with the cap. We have already unlocked our potential as far as it will go without a transformation, and this will not give us a transformation. (I believe if this was a possibility that was likely to bear fruit, Guru would already have brought it up.)
Having had some time to think about it:
[ ] Plan Crash Training
-[ ] Sight - 2 AP (2)
--[ ] Looking Abroad (1 AP) [The Invasion Fleet, especially the leader]
--[ ] Continue Your Training (1 AP)
-[ ] Training 3 AP (3+5)
--[ ] Improve a Skill (1 AP) [Team Fighting]
---[ ] Do this before anything else
--[ ] To Go Beyond (1 AP) [Perfect Multiform] x2
--[ ] Improve a Skill (1 AP) [Ki Refinement]
--[ ] Broken Precedent (2 AP)
--[ ] Style Training (1 AP) [Tien Style]
--[ ] Spirit Bomb Experimentation (1 AP)
-[ ] Social- 2 AP (2)
--[ ] Strange Sister (1 AP) x2
-[ ] The Outside World - 2 AP (2)
--[ ] Instruction (1 AP)
--[ ] Historical Insights (1 AP)
-[ ] A Cause - 1 AP (1)
--[ ] Improve a Skill (1 AP) [Ki Refinement]
I'm dropping the Host Bond for Perfect Multiform, because I would like that done and out of the way, and I suspect we won't finish it in a single action more... and if we do, we can tweak/improve it for an action's worth of effort, given that we've already made progress on this through practice.
I remain against attempting to unlock SSJ2 at this point. I also think the Hell-run is a bit premature, especially if we're only going to be able to stay for a few months before having to leave again (having possibly compromised our ability to go through Hell unnoticed). If we were to go through Hell though, I'd note that we might be able to do so at effectively 0 PL, using entirely the undetectable donated PLs.
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- Location
- Italy
it's possible that the "potential" might not be, in this case, a raise in our power level but a rank-up in one or more of our skills. Also I don't remember the specific post but it has been stated that there ARE some namekians who practice this type of magic, though we can't be certain about how skilled they are at it.
No reason not to ask about it. At least we'll know for certain how it works and what are its limits.
Also Poptart said that it would take 1 ap "both to ask and to adapt to the changes". that kinda implies that there will BE some changes, minor as they might be.
If i remember right Poptart said we can only use Spirit Saiyan at our maximum power level, so we'd still be sensed as a FPSSJ slightly above 1 billion.
@PoptartProdigy is this correct?
Maybe that could change if we train the skill?
I can accept waiting until our return for ssj2, and I'm mostly fine with your plan, though I'd exchange 1 ap (maybe from historical insight?) to the potential unlocked attempt. It's a low hanging fruit, we might as well see how it works.
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
I will open this evening, which for those abroad (such as yourself) means in about four or five hours.
No, like I said, it's thin but you justified it enough for my satisfaction.
I'm not entirely clear on what you're asking. Could you be more specific?
I would say that fitting Strange Sister under A Cause would be too much of a stretch.
It would still take 1 AP to project away. You could ask while you were there, but that's a steep cost for some questions which may or may not pan out as you hope.
You must be at your max personal power level.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
That's a bit meta, but does allay my concerns somewhat. I rather like the "Historical Insights" action though, we don't know what incredible information might be had there. Still, I suppose it could wait for the trip...
[ ] Plan Crash Training
-[ ] Sight - 2 AP (2)
--[ ] Looking Abroad (1 AP) [The Invasion Fleet, especially the leader]
--[ ] Continue Your Training (1 AP)
-[ ] Training 3 AP (3+5)
--[ ] Improve a Skill (1 AP) [Team Fighting]
---[ ] Do this before anything else
--[ ] To Go Beyond (1 AP) [Perfect Multiform] x2
--[ ] Improve a Skill (1 AP) [Ki Refinement]
--[ ] Broken Precedent (2 AP)
--[ ] Style Training (1 AP) [Tien Style]
--[ ] Spirit Bomb Experimentation (1 AP)
-[ ] Social- 2 AP (2)
--[ ] Strange Sister (1 AP) x2
-[ ] The Outside World - 2 AP (2)
--[ ] Instruction (1 AP)
--[ ] Potential Unlocking (1 AP)
-[ ] A Cause - 1 AP (1)
--[ ] Improve a Skill (1 AP) [Ki Refinement]
[ ] Potential Unlocking (Social AP #2)
What!?
We can't do this! If we do this, then when we can never safely use Spirit Saiyan on Garenhuld again! We'd go from being a serious threat against foes with Power Levels in the hundreds of billions, to not being able to face foes that can deal with a Spirit Bomb! I must insist that we not pursue SSJ2 until such a time as this is resolved - it's no longer "we aren't ready for success", it's "success may be disastrous in the long term."
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- Location
- Italy
To be fair, that's the situation NOW. If we unlocked ssj2 i would expect that we'd need to be at our current max ssj power level, but not actually the ssj2 max. Otherwise controlling spirit saiyan as a NOT-mastered ssj2 would probably be a lot more difficult. We won't know for certain until we reach that point though
And if we want to feel weaker when we use it...well, there's a cheat for that. we could have a normal 1/4 strenght multiform use it instead. She would then "feel" weaker to ki sense
- Location
- United States
There's been some discussion of pushing for Super Saiyan 2, but one other option would be to work more on Golden Oozaru. Both Golden Oozaru and SSJ2 are basically double power of SSJ. For SSJ2, we need to learn a new transformation, while for Golden Oozaru we need to patch the speed problem (or maybe just learn some homing or AOE attacks?). Furthermore, while IIRC GT is non-canon here, we might wind up developing something like SSJ4.
Just a thought we should consider before we go down SSJ2 training.
Just a thought we should consider before we go down SSJ2 training.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
Both of those claims are entirely unsubstantiated - we have no reason to believe that we won't need to be at full PL after we unlock SSJ2 at all, and we don't know that we can maintain a Multiform while using Spirit Saiyan. (Admittedly, the latter is something we will probably find out during this turn's experimentation.)
Until either we know we can Spirit Saiyan as a Multiform, or we can maintain Spirit Saiyan without being at full PL (possibly as part of having trained in the Genki Dama?) This is a risk we must not take.
...That's actually something I've been wanting to do for a long time, but accepted was impractical due to not having the PL and then only having a few minutes a day. Thanks for reminding me: we would be trying to unlock SSJ2 for less than 20 minutes each day. This is already an extremely difficult check under these conditions (nothing to have an "epiphany" about), but this frankly tips it over the edge to being "roll a nat 100 or fail". It's just not going to work.
(I had completely forgotten about the extreme time limit somehow.)
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- Location
- Italy
Golden Oozaru is a bit situational. We can't really use it that often, and while ssj2 also raises our base and ssj cap, GO doesn't.
Also GO doubles the base power, ssj2 doubles the ssj boost. And if we get ssj2 we also get GO grade 2.
I WOULD like to try to unlock something like ssj4, but to be fair we have no idea of how to go for it. Meditation while GO maybe? Try to combine a ssj multiform with a GO multiform without losing access to the different "wells" of ki? Thoughts for the future.
As you said we'll probably find out about the multiform during this turn's experimentation. If that works we're probably fine and more discussion about this is mostly pointless.
But even if it doesn't, we'll have to try ssj2 at some point. Maybe we can wait until we reach heaven and can hopefully get more efficient ssj training from our ancestors, where we'll be able to experiment with ssj2 and spirit saiyan more freely.
I disagree that it would be nearly impossiblefor one simple reason. when we're powered up we actually think faster. 20 minutes of meditation at full power would feel subjectively much longer, and what we need to transform is not physical training but a mental/emotional trigger.
It would likely be harder, but not "nat100" levels of hard.
Still, i can agree on waiting until Bassoon's next host level maybe. Or even until heaven if we find other avenues to explore in the meanwhile.
- Location
- Academy City
- Pronouns
- They
Don't we already know we can spirit saiyan while in multiform? Kakara went spirit saiyan the first time while in multiform, iirc.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
I would be totally on board with that, were it not for the Spirit Saiyan thing. But it might be that training Genki Dama relaxes that restriction as a side-effect as it levels up, in which case I'd be all for it.
Mechanically, Poptart is going to impose heavy penalties for the time limit. And OOC, we know that:
In order to reach SSJ2 we need to have an "epiphany", that changes our mind about how we see the world in some way. Gohan gave up on his unwillingness to fight, Vegeta accepted that he was in fact weaker than Goku and failing to catch up, and I forget Goku's reason. This is very unlikely to occur whilst meditating in a katchin box.
Nah, the Multiform dissolved as she absorbed the energy, so that she wouldn't have to take the risk. It'll come up in experimentation I imagine.
- Location
- Italy
We can hope. For all the power of the technique, we DO still have it at unlearned.
Worst case scenario, it might require an elite talent. I imagine other possible elite talents would be a way to charge it while fighting, and maybe a way to take the ki (or at least more ki than normal) without permission
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
Yeah, I was actually thinking of Jaffur's Ki Refinement - originally at "poor", we could only use it internally with great concentration. Now we can use it for energy attacks too, but the concentration requirement is still there, though perhaps decreased in severity. Worth keeping in mind that some/many skill improvements come with side-benefits, aside from "the main number associated with this skill gets bigger".
Yeah, and the other obvious options sound better, really.
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Strictly speaking, the sequence of events was:
Multiformed->Charging Genki Dama->Genki Dama charged and ready->Cancel multiform->Solicit donations->Spirit Saiyan
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
I don't think that can be right - how do you charge a Genki Dama before you solicit donations?
- Location
- Italy
you gather the "free" ki before asking for more from the people
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
But then it can't be finished charging? That makes sense, but that means the "finish charging" step is in the wrong place instead.