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Dragon Ball: After the End

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Hmmm.

[X] Accept his apology.
-[X] We see he meant well and bear no hard feelings for his misjudgement
-[X] ...and give him a punishment.
--[X] He shall retire from his position, choosing a worthy (possibly temporary) successor. He will spend a year living among the families of the faith that will accept him, seeing what they need firsthand, and do what he can to aid them. After the year is up, the faith itself will make a final decision to leave him stripped of his position or return him to it. It's not just us he has unintentionally wronged, after all.

Not liking the current write-ins. This is my initial idea from reading the post, pretty much.
 
[X] Don't accept or refuse his apology.
-[X] Help him to his feet.
-[X] Explain why.
--[X] He says he will accept punishment for reaching above his station but there is something else he must answer for first; taking advantage of the distress of his fellow saiyans in his search for power. Sincé he is willing to offer his life in penance, you will take it: he shall dedícate it to help others whenever he can until he makes amends for what he did. Then, on the day you become Lady, he will come to you and you shall pass judgement.
 
[X] Refuse his apology.
-[X] ...but offer no punishment.
-[X] I cannot accept your apology, for you have done nothing wrong. Instead, you should be commended, commended for being able to see the dark clouds on the horizon and knowing that fractured and apart the Saiyan race may indeed come undone by storm that is coming. You saw the darkness, and you saw our frailty, and acted to be the light in the darkness, the beacon of hope that would allow us to weather this storm. And that is no crime. Even if the way you went about your actions was wrong, the intent to help, the intent to strengthen us all - that is not, that cannot be wrong. Even as you say that you are not, and cannot be the light that keeps this approaching darkness at bay, Then I ask that you be the shutters of the lantern, to keep the heavy winds from blowing out the light, to be the oil that keeps the light going bright. We cannot stand alone and apart in these times... So instead I ask of you this -- will you help me to not only protect the faith, but to help protect and guide us all.
--[X] Help him to his feet

I need something more to this... but I don't know what. I kinda want to somehow imply that we knew about his plan already, but not sure how to say that.

...I also want to bring up Dandeer and her murder and replacement of her family, but I feel that this is not the time for it.

It is the right place however.
 
[X] Don't accept or refuse his apology.
-[X] Help him to his feet.
-[X] Explain why.
--[X] He says he will accept punishment for reaching above his station but there is something else he must answer for first; taking advantage of the distress of his fellow saiyans in his search for power. Sincé he is willing to offer his life in penance, you will take it: he shall dedícate it to help others whenever he can until he makes amends for what he did. Then, on the day you become Lady, he will come to you and you shall pass judgement.
 
[X] Don't accept or refuse his apology.
-[X] Help him to his feet.
-[X] Explain why.
--[X] He says he will accept punishment for reaching above his station but there is something else he must answer for first; taking advantage of the distress of his fellow saiyans in his search for power. Sincé he is willing to offer his life in penance, you will take it: he shall dedícate it to help others whenever he can until he makes amends for what he did. Then, on the day you become Lady, he will come to you and you shall pass judgement.

I like this.

Also, for everyone who is mixing in the House Peat stuff with this - this guy isn't (technically) House Peat any longer. The problem of only having an 11-year old's word is still a thing.

I suspect that we will shortly have the chance to converse with our Grandma quietly, and have her telepathically tell him that we (and, likely, she) think he needs to confess to Lord Goku for the secular matters.

I also think we should be just but merciful on the secular side - House Peat cannot die for this (and not just because our friend would suffer). This was a political maneuver that we stopped peacefully but firmly, and which COMPLETELY undercut the support on which it was based. We have defeated this rebellion far more completely than the Talt Rebellion was put down. We should do whatever we can to ensure they survive, to spread the tale.
 
Karaka just turned him. Forcing him to reduce his ability to serve her by stepping down is counterproductive.

Some sort of consequence is necessary to reinforce Kakara's position, especially if she wants to win over the Vegetans. Still, sincere repentance is a big deal for the faith, presumably especially among the Vegetans, Kakara the Holy reinforcing that among counterparts fits the themes, and as the driving force behind this mess he was trying to harness in the first place the Vegetans have to be careful how much blood they call for lest they damn themselves as well.

I kind of like the idea of deferred judgement. It may be severe enough to placate the Vegetans. It ties him strongly to being a Kakara ally without interfering with his ability to do so. It somehow manages to simultaneously publicly promote and humbly restrain Kakara's authority.

I like it a bit more than the other alternative, which would have been something along the lines of requiring him to endure a year entirely within his masque to earn back his full Saiyan status. It might still be combined, though, and sets a precedent for potentially satisfying compromise consequences for Lady Vegeta. She probably isn't nearly as capable a sorceress when in her masque, and it would greatly undermine her already fragile gravitas.

Perhaps make a show of involving the Vegetans in the decision? They were the ones most exploited, but also share in the shame. Respecting their authority would likely do quite a bit to restore confidence and place Kakara as a suitable center for them.

@PoptartProdigy, how many house heads or similar leaders of the Vegetans are at the meeting?​

That said, he still hasn't made a full confession, and it might be worth pointing out the incompleteness here.
 
I'm just glad we aren't going with the Teachings of Goku post at this part, considering most of this problem is caused by the Vegetans being concerned/worried/annoyed at their lack of a leader.
 
Bakkasama said:
[X] Don't accept or refuse his apology.
-[X] Help him to his feet.
-[X] Explain why.
--[X] He says he will accept punishment for reaching above his station but there is something else he must answer for first; taking advantage of the distress of his fellow saiyans in his search for power. Sincé he is willing to offer his life in penance, you will take it: he shall dedícate it to help others whenever he can until he makes amends for what he did. Then, on the day you become Lady, he will come to you and you shall pass judgement.
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@Bakkasama, I like your thoughts on mercy and punishment but I don't like this write-in. You're saying he should dedicate his life for who knows how long helping people, even though his confession informed us that he did what he did to help people. A generic "you must help people" order is inappropriate here. We need something more specific than that. There's also the problem of delaying his secular punishment for who knows how many years until we become Lady. Not only are we undercutting Berra's authority by claiming that we should be the arbiter of his punishment and not him, we're delaying his punishment for who knows how many years while we grow up which is unacceptable.

EDIT: What if we call our grandmother in on this? She has authority both secular and religious. One of the problems is that people think that she as the Matriarch has been doing nothing. If we call on her to act now, it solves that problem and adds to our reputation for solving it, plus it ties into our words of getting help from our elders and acting as a mediator rather than a leader.
 
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[X] Accept his apology.
-[X] We see he meant well and bear no hard feelings for his misjudgement
-[X] ...and give him a punishment.
--[X] He shall retire from his position, choosing a worthy (possibly temporary) successor. He will spend a year living among the families of the faith that will accept him, seeing what they need firsthand, and do what he can to aid them. After the year is up, the faith itself will make a final decision to leave him stripped of his position or return him to it. It's not just us he has unintentionally wronged, after all.
 
Andres110 said:
@Bakkasama, I like your thoughts on mercy and punishment but I don't like this write-in. You're saying he should dedicate his life for who knows how long helping people, even though his confession informed us that he did what he did to help people. A generic "you must help people" order is inappropriate here. We need something more specific than that. There's also the problem of delaying his secular punishment for who knows how many years until we become Lady. Not only are we undercutting Berra's authority by claiming that we should be the arbiter of his punishment and not him, we're delaying his punishment for who knows how many years while we grow up which is unacceptable.

EDIT: What if we call our grandmother in on this? She has authority both secular and religious. One of the problems is that people think that she as the Matriarch has been doing nothing. If we call on her to act now, it solves that problem and adds to our reputation for solving it, plus it ties into our words of getting help from our elders and acting as a mediator rather than a leader.
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Not quite? This is the relevant part of the confession:
PoptartProdigy said:
"I made this happen," says Celeran, shame in his voice. "I conspired to raise myself up as a true authority above the people of the Faith. I saw the chaos of our people, and inaction of those meant to protect us from ourselves, and I concluded that I was the only one who could save us. In my hubris, I sought to set myself against those touched by the Mandate of Heaven[/b]. I forgot who you are. I forgot that for every evil, there is a good. To my shame, I forgot that the gods never leave us without somebody to protect us from those who fail. When our society crumbled around us, Lady Garla the First, Princess of All Saiyans, stepped forward to reform our society. When Lord Oni Goku's cruel reign threatened to consume all, there was Prince Carrick Vegeta to set himself against that monster. When I saw our only Lord and our Matriarch and Patriarch looking upon the chaos of our people and doing nothing, I thought I was the balance set against them. I was wrong. It was you."

He raises his head -- not to look in your eyes, but enough to bring his forehead off the floor. "Where I sought to steal power like a thief in the night, you have stepped forward and with simple words undone my schemes. Where I thought to become great by stealth, you simply are. My Lady Scion, I am sorry. You are the one who will step forward to save us from this madness. I see that now. I will not shame myself again by daring to suppose when or even how -- but I have, in my arrogance, forgotten that every Scion is ordained by those with the touch of True Sight upon them. You have been set to some day lead fully half of our people for a reason. I see that reason now. Your words are clear and earnestly meant. They burn with conviction. You shame me, Scion. And you don't even mean to. You will some day be a better and worthier leader than I ever could be. I beg you for your forgiveness..." He lowers his head back to the stage and deliberately drops his power level to near-zero. "...but if you wish it, I freely accept your punishment."
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First, while he says he thought he could save the saiyans by leading them,that is not the same as helping them whenever he can. The first one puts him in a position of authority while the second does not and it helps tests whether he indeed did it to help or to take power. It also ties is with the crime, which I separated in two parts, trying to take power and taking advantage of the distress. The punishment is for him to make amends with the members of the faith for the second. I also said that Kakara would pass judgement on the first at a later date; if she will judge him for his hubris, it stands to reason that we are testing him in that when we tell him to help others. It is the way that he decides to do so that defines how he will be punished at a later date; it is vague so that in how he decides to meet that punishment it tests how sorry he is. That is implied in that we shall pass judgement.

Second, I am not sure about what his secular punishment would be but if father wants to judge him he will judge him regardless of what we say. He is asking for our personal forgiveness and it is obvious father's authority is above our own on this. Killing Celeran would be usurping Berra's power since it decides his fate but as is, to ask him to come to us when we are Lady is both because then we would have something resembling legal legitimacy to properly punish him and to give Berra the chance to judge him if he decides to since that later is to decide Kakara's forgiveness, not the law's. It is not a secular punishment which it is iffy if we can decide as Scion but a personal punishment he put into our hands, delayed until a time I believe we wouldn't get in trouble if we decide how to proceed regardless of how but giving the impression of us being just rather than us covering our bases. So we are not taking a shot at Berra's authority since we are not deciding on his place but our own. The chance to punish him is one freely given, the issue would not be whether we decide to do so or not but on how we go about it.

Involving Grandma does not sound like that good an idea from the political point of view since Celeran's speech is building us up as someone they can have hope in when others in our family fail; throwing the ball back to our grandma gives a conflicted message with that. Furthermore, he is apologising to us, not grandma. She is also the Matriarch, not the Lady, so she does not have secular power anymore. Anything that would mean we are undercutting Berra would also do it if she did it.

Finally, as to some of the punishments mentioned: anything to do with the masquerade is a no since it brings attention to the sealing again and making him live among the families of the faith that would accept him basically gives him the easy way out of staying with his family or his allies and say he helped them. It is a joke of a punishment because of how easily it turns into no punishment at all and because it is a single year, basically nothing.
 
[X] Don't accept or refuse his apology.
-[X] Help him to his feet.
-[X] Explain why.
--[X] He says he will accept punishment for reaching above his station but there is something else he must answer for first; taking advantage of the distress of his fellow saiyans in his search for power. Sincé he is willing to offer his life in penance, you will take it: he shall dedícate it to help others whenever he can until he makes amends for what he did. Then, on the day you become Lady, he will come to you and you shall pass judgement.

That confession took more balls than his attempted power grab. I may not be particularly religious myself, but I do respect honestly held beliefs. I think I may just like this guy.
 
Bakkasama said:
Second, I am not sure about what his secular punishment would be but if father wants to judge him he will judge him regardless of what we say. He is asking for our personal forgiveness and it is obvious father's authority is above our own on this.
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If our own judgement is merely whether we forgive him for his actions or not - and not whether we throw him in prison or revoke his title or something - then this is fine, but in that case the action needs to be reworded from saying "you shall pass judgement" to "you will decide whether or not to forgive him". But if it's about forgiveness rather than a secular punishment, why are we waiting until we become Lady?

If it's for secular punishment it should be made explicit that we will only judge him as Lady if Dad doesn't judge him himself before then, but that brings its own problem. If Berra doesn't judge him, it makes him look weak for delaying the punishment of a traitor and it makes us look bad to the Vegetans for getting Dad to delay the punishment of a traitor for us. The only other thing I can think of is Dad punishing him now and then expecting Celeran to appear before us years later to get punished again which doesn't really seem fair at all.
 
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Andres110 said:
If our own judgement is merely whether we forgive him for his actions or not - and not whether we throw him in prison or revoke his title or something - then this is fine, but in that case the action needs to be reworded from saying "you shall pass judgement" to "you will decide whether or not to forgive him". But if it's about forgiveness rather than a secular punishment, why are we waiting until we become Lady?

If it's for secular punishment it should be made explicit that we will only judge him as Lady if Dad doesn't judge him himself before then, but that brings its own problem. If Berra doesn't judge him, it makes him look weak for delaying the punishment of a traitor and it makes us look bad to the Vegetans for getting Dad to delay the punishment of a traitor for us. The only other thing I can think of is Dad punishing him now and then expecting Celeran to appear before us years later to get punished again which doesn't really seem fair at all.
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We are waiting until we become a Lady to give him a chance to redeem himself and because, even if he is offering us the chance of us killing him in punishment freely given right now, I am unsure as to the legality of it and whether he considered it or not. By being a Lady when we decide, we have the implicit threat of having the authority to decide it should he misbehave which would hopefully keep him in check. Furthermore, it gives a message of us being displeased with him that will diminish Peat influence among the faithful and that we can easily negate by showing favor should he prove loyal to us. It also puts at ease those that might think he got of lightly under the promise that this isn't over.
 
I'm not saying we should punish him now - it's not our place to do so. The problem is that punishing him when we become Lady is also not right because by then he would've already been punished by Berra.
 
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Andres110 said:
I'm not saying we should punish him now - it's not our place to do so. The problem is that punishing him when we become Lady is also not right because by then he would've already been punished by Berra.
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Then we don't. That's why we pass judgement when we are older. If we think he already atoned for this then no need to punish him.

Look, I get from where you are coming from but I think that the wording is fine. This is important for these people and from what Celeran implied, whether we forgive him or not is as good as judgement for him.

While I still don't trust him I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. If he believes what he says then a chance to atone will be good for his soul, better than just forgiving him, since it will let him earn it and properly make amends for whatever offense he believes he gave the gods. Judgement also implies a promise to our saiyans that there will be order in the future and it tells the Head of Peat that this isn't forgotten. But even without all that intent that I hoped was implicit in the wording of the vote, Poptart won't let Kakara go OoC. She knows better than us what is legal or not and Poptart has already showed that he takes player reasoning into account when writing her thought process so she will be aware of the consecuences and choose the wording as apropriate for her while keeping in mind what we mean.

Given how Kakara's speech and personality have developed so far I doubt he will use the word judgement when she phrases it but I still wrote it that way in order to condense as much meaning as I could into the votewithout making it cumbersome. Also, from what I have seen so far, he is not the kind of QM to screw his players over wording. Over idiotic choices, yes, but not over wording. It helps he participates a lot in the thread.
 
I can't say I'm entirely convinced but I guess I'm willing to go along with it. Hopefully everything will turn out well. Speaking of which, @Bakkasama, good work on writing up the previous plan. It paid off in a really big way in the update.

But christ, all this talking to people stuff and being their icon is really hard and is way complicated. Looking towards the unparalleled master of winning the hearts and minds of others should help here. @PoptartProdigy, if he were in this situation, what would Mr. Satan do?
 
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Gore17 said:
@PoptartProdigy, is our sight giving us any hints? *puppy dog eyes*
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Boldtext?

*shakes the wondrous magic 8-ball* "Reply hazy, try again."

That's about as helpful as I thought it would be. :lol

Andres110 said:
I can't say I'm entirely convinced but I guess I'm willing to go along with it. Hopefully everything will turn out well. Speaking of which, @Bakkasama, good work on writing up the previous plan. It paid off in a really big way in the update.

But christ, all this talking to people stuff and being their icon is really hard and is way complicated. Looking towards the unparalleled master of winning the hearts and minds of others should help here. @PoptartProdigy, if he were in this situation, what would Mr. Satan do?
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"GOOD PEOPLE!"

*everybody cheers and feels better for some reason*

I don't get it.

Neither do I.
 
Andres110 said:
But christ, all this talking to people stuff and being their icon is really hard and is way complicated. Looking towards the unparalleled master of winning the hearts and minds of others should help here. @PoptartProdigy, if he were in this situation, what would Mr. Satan do?
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The amount of time that question comes up in everyday life continues to astound me. Still, if anyone can do it, is Kakara; she is his descendant after all.

That said, he would probably boast about being the strongest in the world, laugh out loud while thrash talking pro-wrestler style. Once he realized how serious the situation really is, use the threat of violence and if that doesn't work try to defuse him while inwardly wondering when it was that everyone but him went insane. Also, tell people that he will save them and giving them hope while at the same scheming how to turn the situation to his favor and how to make it so that he looks as good as possible, taking insane risks to do it although he doesn't really understand the situation. Being doublé faced and coasting on previous reputation (whether it is true or not) to let people make assumptions that are in your favor is also a good strategy. Still, when it comes down to it and for all that he talks and schemes, when chips fall down he is willing to risk his life for what he thinks is right even against superior opponents and doesn't tolerate people hurting innocents so his deceiving is not really malicious.
 
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