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The meter is not obviously based on lightspeed in any way. And using setting-inappropriate terminology can knock me out of the story. Worse, in this case, it can seem internally inconsistent; if I didn't trust Poptart an unusual amount as a writer, I'd assume that something really weird was going on with high-PL vision.
A meter is how far light can travel in 1/299792458 seconds; that is, in fact, definitionally the case. Despite this, I can still say that "Kakara should have no trouble sensing someone powering up 10 meters away" despite the fact that with an infinite speed of light that's infinitely far away, because we don't have to update terminology for fictional universes.
 
I forgot to mention, the Broly movie also had Piccolo make the claim that he could hear over interstellar distances. Which is just silly.
 
Do you want to say that Solar Flare speeds up light in the same way that high-level ki fighters speed up air, or do you want to rewrite this to use a different distance measurement?

Um. Without his ki, he wouldn't be alive in space, let alone that hit.

Missing a period.

That's an odd opinion for your narrator to have. Is it related to why it wasn't used?
...I do not want to do either of those things, actually.

Is there a point to mentioning that? Because while it's a factually-correct statement, it also prompts me to no particular action.

Thanks.

It's understatement.
 
Broly could casually destroy a Galaxy in a small amount time, but, completely unshackled by any restrains or morals, or needs couldn't blow up Comet Camori to save himself, there are only four galaxies in the Universe (yes, I know that's somewhat DBZ canon, but we're literally ignoring it in his quest)
No it's not? The fact that there's multiple galaxies has been a known fact for ages.

The whole thing came from a bit of confusion on account of the fact that japans word for galaxy is used both singularly and as a plural. So "South Galaxies" is identical to "South Galaxy".

Also, fun fact, it doesn't say it's destroyed in the original japanese, just that it's under attack.
 
...I do not want to do either of those things, actually.
I think you're right.

Thanks to this, now I have the mental image of the Kaio Shin filling a mountain of paperwork to increase the speed of light while cussing under their breath about troublesome saiyans breaking phisics again.
Oh no, it's simple. The explanation is MUCH simpler than that.

The Kaio Shin set up space and time in Universe 7 to run on the geometry of Euclid and the mathematics of Descartes. Space and time are universal invariants and do not 'dilate' or 'compress' when you move through them rapidly. The speed of light is infinite and always has been. Spacecraft speeds are limited by available fuel, by how much energy they can impart to their reaction mass or other means of propulsion, and (in extreme cases) by the 'astrodynamic/aerodynamic' friction caused by interstellar hydrogen atoms banging into the ship's hull and exerting a drag force that cancels out the forward thrust of the engines.

There is no such thing as relativity in Universe 7. Instead, there is an absolute privileged frame of reference and it is defined as "are you or are you not moving relative to the Sacred World of the Kai, which is the official center of the universe." Except when Zen-O is in Universe 7, in which case Zen-O abruptly becomes the privileged frame of reference. Zen-O himself does not travel from place to place, he just casually compels the universe to move in perfect synchrony, in such a way that objects he desires to approach are brought closer to him. The mountain will come to Muhammed. Any appearance of movement on his part is just him playing cute little childish games; he walks while the floor moves under his feet.

(EDIT: When two Zen-Os are present, they are both the official privileged frame of reference, even insofar as this is logically impossible, because Zen-O's beliefs are powerful enough to override both mathematics and basic common sense. The myriad of bitty little recording angels in the celestial bureaucracy that keep track of all the heavenly bodies' whereabouts and update their coordinates spend a lot of time crying as a result.)

How does that sound?

Hey @PoptartProdigy , do you like it?

Do you want to say that Solar Flare speeds up light in the same way that high-level ki fighters speed up air, or do you want to rewrite this to use a different distance measurement?
Light-years are not meaningful units of distance within the context of Universe 7 if I'm right; in-universe astronomers would use parsecs or very large multiples of the meter or other distance units.

But this does not matter at all, because Poptart is writing in English for an audience that lives in a world where Einsteinian physics applies, and we all know damn well what a light-year is and shouldn't pointlessly harass Poptart about it.

The meter is not obviously based on lightspeed in any way. And using setting-inappropriate terminology can knock me out of the story.
I think you're just going to have to get used to it, or learn to be polite about it?

Poptart isn't the type to go back and make constant petty adjustments to the science and technology portrayed in their quest updates because of individual people demanding that they 'admit' that they did it wrong the first time. I know this from experience, and in this case I'm quite firmly convinced that Poptart is making the correct call if they don't change that passage.

A meter is how far light can travel in 1/299792458 seconds; that is, in fact, definitionally the case. Despite this, I can still say that "Kakara should have no trouble sensing someone powering up 10 meters away" despite the fact that with an infinite speed of light that's infinitely far away, because we don't have to update terminology for fictional universes.
:D

The meter has an even better excuse; in a universe where light has infinite speed, it would simply remain defined in terms of a fixed hunk of metal somewhere. Of course, that hunk of metal was destroyed with the Earth, but I'm sure the Exiles have some way of improvising a substitute.
 
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No it's not? The fact that there's multiple galaxies has been a known fact for ages.

The whole thing came from a bit of confusion on account of the fact that japans word for galaxy is used both singularly and as a plural. So "South Galaxies" is identical to "South Galaxy".

Also, fun fact, it doesn't say it's destroyed in the original japanese, just that it's under attack.
My point was that the idea that there are only four galaxies in DBZ is ridiculous. As opposed to billions. As to the other points, well, I don't understand Japanese so I can only read subs.
 
Oh no, it's simple. The explanation is MUCH simpler than that.

The Kaio Shin set up space and time in Universe 7 to run on the geometry of Euclid and the mathematics of Descartes. Space and time are universal invariants and do not 'dilate' or 'compress' when you move through them rapidly. The speed of light is infinite and always has been. Spacecraft speeds are limited by available fuel, by how much energy they can impart to their reaction mass or other means of propulsion, and (in extreme cases) by the 'astrodynamic/aerodynamic' friction caused by interstellar hydrogen atoms banging into the ship's hull and exerting a drag force that cancels out the forward thrust of the engines.

There is no such thing as relativity in Universe 7. Instead, there is an absolute privileged frame of reference and it is defined as "are you or are you not moving relative to the Sacred World of the Kai, which is the official center of the universe." Except when Zen-O is in Universe 7, in which case Zen-O abruptly becomes the privileged frame of reference. Zen-O himself does not travel from place to place, he just casually compels the universe to move in perfect synchrony, in such a way that objects he desires to approach are brought closer to him. The mountain will come to Muhammed. Any appearance of movement on his part is just him playing cute little childish games; he walks while the floor moves under his feet.

(EDIT: When two Zen-Os are present, they are both the official privileged frame of reference, even insofar as this is logically impossible, because Zen-O's beliefs are powerful enough to override both mathematics and basic common sense. The myriad of bitty little recording angels in the celestial bureaucracy that keep track of all the heavenly bodies' whereabouts and update their coordinates spend a lot of time crying as a result.)

How does that sound?

Hey @PoptartProdigy , do you like it?
That sounds delightful and hilarious, but also like something I would first need to check with @The Fourth Monado, whose apathy for this topic eclipses even my own formidable supply. :lol
:D

The meter has an even better excuse; in a universe where light has infinite speed, it would simply remain defined in terms of a fixed hunk of metal somewhere. Of course, that hunk of metal was destroyed with the Earth, but I'm sure the Exiles have some way of improvising a substitute.
Twist ending: the new reference is actually known to be at least 5% off from the original, but the exact amount and in what direction is unknown, everybody has gotten used to the new way of doing things, and so nobody is motivated to find out except for scientists, who can't pay a Seer enough money to waste vision juice on that and are absolutely furious about the whole ordeal. :rofl:
 
Oh no, it's simple. The explanation is MUCH simpler than that.

The Kaio Shin set up space and time in Universe 7 to run on the geometry of Euclid and the mathematics of Descartes. Space and time are universal invariants and do not 'dilate' or 'compress' when you move through them rapidly. The speed of light is infinite and always has been. Spacecraft speeds are limited by available fuel, by how much energy they can impart to their reaction mass or other means of propulsion, and (in extreme cases) by the 'astrodynamic/aerodynamic' friction caused by interstellar hydrogen atoms banging into the ship's hull and exerting a drag force that cancels out the forward thrust of the engines.

There is no such thing as relativity in Universe 7. Instead, there is an absolute privileged frame of reference and it is defined as "are you or are you not moving relative to the Sacred World of the Kai, which is the official center of the universe." Except when Zen-O is in Universe 7, in which case Zen-O abruptly becomes the privileged frame of reference. Zen-O himself does not travel from place to place, he just casually compels the universe to move in perfect synchrony, in such a way that objects he desires to approach are brought closer to him. The mountain will come to Muhammed. Any appearance of movement on his part is just him playing cute little childish games; he walks while the floor moves under his feet.

(EDIT: When two Zen-Os are present, they are both the official privileged frame of reference, even insofar as this is logically impossible, because Zen-O's beliefs are powerful enough to override both mathematics and basic common sense. The myriad of bitty little recording angels in the celestial bureaucracy that keep track of all the heavenly bodies' whereabouts and update their coordinates spend a lot of time crying as a result.)

How does that sound?
Counter argument in favor of Kai paperwork: Toriyama is originally gag manga author so simple and funny explanations should probably take priority.

The meter has an even better excuse; in a universe where light has infinite speed, it would simply remain defined in terms of a fixed hunk of metal somewhere. Of course, that hunk of metal was destroyed with the Earth, but I'm sure the Exiles have some way of improvising a substitute.
Presumably, the exiles has a meeting among their most reknown scientist in order to set the standard properly. Each of them brought a lump of metal which they claimed was one meter in length. They then proceded to beat each other with them and the last one standing with a straight metal bar was considered the one in the right and that bar was set as the standard.

It later turned out they had brought a measuring tape from Earth, which was left in the ship's glove compartment. The scientists laughed awkwardly at their gafe, measured a meter in a bar and made a super precise cut with Ki and they havee used that ever since.
 
Twist ending: the new reference is actually known to be at least 5% off from the original, but the exact amount and in what direction is unknown, everybody has gotten used to the new way of doing things, and so nobody is motivated to find out except for scientists, who can't pay a Seer enough money to waste vision juice on that and are absolutely furious about the whole ordeal. :rofl:
Given that to top it all off, the meter was originally defined relative to the circumference of a planet that is now exploded, I find this deeply entertaining.

Though seriously if I had a technical library from Old Earth and some basic instrumentation on Garenhuld, it wouldn't actually be that hard to solve the problem one way or another.

Counter argument in favor of Kai paperwork: Toriyama is originally gag manga author so simple and funny explanations should probably take priority.
Yes, but where you get gag manga humor from the Kais having to increase the speed of light whenever the saiyans achieve a new transformation, I get gag manga humor from the entire celestial bureaucracy having to redefine "position" every time Zen-O sets foot in the universe, and every time he moves within the universe, and having to fill out mutually exclusive sets of paperwork simultaneously when he brings his friend Zen-O along. :D

Presumably, the exiles has a meeting among their most reknown scientist in order to set the standard properly. Each of them brought a lump of metal which they claimed was one meter in length. They then proceded to beat each other with them and the last one standing with a straight metal bar was considered the one in the right and that bar was set as the standard.

It later turned out they had brought a measuring tape from Earth, which was left in the ship's glove compartment. The scientists laughed awkwardly at their gafe, measured a meter in a bar and made a super precise cut with Ki and they havee used that ever since.
Sounds right to me.
 
Quick pseudo-scientific explanation:
The more Ki power you wield, the more you locally distort space-time/relativity while expressing that power, allowing "bursts of speed" while not trivializing interstellar distances. But only during actual fights and spars.

Extremely high power levels (SSJ3+, any level of Divine Ki) start fuzzying even that.

Divine Ki takes precedence over general laws of reality.
 
Quick pseudo-scientific explanation:
The more Ki power you wield, the more you locally distort space-time/relativity while expressing that power, allowing "bursts of speed" while not trivializing interstellar distances. But only during actual fights and spars.

Extremely high power levels (SSJ3+, any level of Divine Ki) start fuzzying even that.

Divine Ki takes precedence over general laws of reality.

Therefore Zen'o take precedence over everything, including Zen'o, they just ignore that.
 
...I do not want to do either of those things, actually.
Fair enough! :rofl:
I would be very happy if you did, though.
Is there a point to mentioning that? Because while it's a factually-correct statement, it also prompts me to no particular action.
It was a weird way to emphasize, and knocked me out of the story a smidge. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
It's understatement.
I'm afraid I don't know what it's understating. As far as I know, SS3 was basically SS1 but with hair extensions and calmness. Then again, I've only seen it in the Z manga.
But this does not matter at all, because Poptart is writing in English for an audience that lives in a world where Einsteinian physics applies, and we all know damn well what a light-year is and shouldn't pointlessly harass Poptart about it.
It actually did knock me out of the story a bit, though. 'Light-year' is something I associate with more conventional sci-fi, whose assumptions really do not gel well with the delightful but very different ideas of Dragonball.
I think you're just going to have to get used to it, or learn to be polite about it?

Poptart isn't the type to go back and make constant petty adjustments to the science and technology portrayed in their quest updates because of individual people demanding that they 'admit' that they did it wrong the first time. I know this from experience, and in this case I'm quite firmly convinced that Poptart is making the correct call if they don't change that passage.
That is not at all the reading I intended. Seriously, is that a common enough goal in your experience to be plausible?
 
Fair enough! :rofl:
I would be very happy if you did, though.

It was a weird way to emphasize, and knocked me out of the story a smidge. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

I'm afraid I don't know what it's understating. As far as I know, SS3 was basically SS1 but with hair extensions and calmness. Then again, I've only seen it in the Z manga.

It actually did knock me out of the story a bit, though. 'Light-year' is something I associate with more conventional sci-fi, whose assumptions really do not gel well with the delightful but very different ideas of Dragonball.

That is not at all the reading I intended. Seriously, is that a common enough goal in your experience to be plausible?

Whether you intend it or not, you are doing a pushy, demanding thing, where you are pressing for changes you want because you think they would be more realistic.

Like, I don't think PoptartProdigy minds people asking questions, but persisting with things like 'it would make me very happy', even simply assuming that's meant as an honest statement, nothing more, makes it functionally attempted emotional blackmail. 'i would be very happy, so very happy you know, and only a jerk wouldn't invest the small effort to make me happier, yes?' is the typical subtext of persisting so consistently with such lines of logic.

Not stated openly, certainly, but it's demanding and emotionally manipulative in tone.
 
Ah, crap.

Well, I will need to drive my wife to work tomorrow. She gets up significantly earlier than me in the morning, being a teacher, so there goes my writing time this evening. Sorry, folks; we'll be another day!
 
Among one or two other things in that clip (it's time-stamped to the particular moment I had in mind).
Ah. That does seem like a justified response to that clip.
(The manga plays it quite differently. Goku acts like it's a big trumpcard, but Babidi is a little confused, because the hair-length is the only apparent change. It also doesn't look viscerally disgusting.)
Like, I don't think PoptartProdigy minds people asking questions, but persisting with things like 'it would make me very happy', even simply assuming that's meant as an honest statement, nothing more, makes it functionally attempted emotional blackmail. 'i would be very happy, so very happy you know, and only a jerk wouldn't invest the small effort to make me happier, yes?' is the typical subtext of persisting so consistently with such lines of logic.
Emotional blackmail is the wrong comparison, as it (like other forms of blackmail) relies on exploiting an existing shame or guilt to obtain concessions. It's taken a bit of time for me to figure out what actually happened, but I think I've got it:
  1. The conversation began with me telling Poptart, subtextually: "If you don't do me this favor I honestly believe to be small, or correct me about its size, I will feel you don't love me." (This is such a fundamental part of human interaction that it can be hard to notice or describe.)
  2. By my reading, Poptart then replied to the effect of: "I don't want to do that, so as a similarly small favor I ask that you not demand it of me".
  3. My response was intended as: "I understand and will not think less of you if you do not do it. Additionally, if you reconsider, my gratitude would be magnified by my revised knowledge of the favor's size."
  4. (An alternate response, equally valid but rarely employed, would be to ask it as a larger favor. I didn't do that, though.)
  5. What I think you and @Simon_Jester saw: "After the first two messages, Horatio goes off-script by demanding the favor anyway! This is clearly incompetence or malice!"
Keep in mind that all involved messages were associated with other, more-obvious-to-the-conscious-mind information as well - there was Poptart answering me literally, which I laughed at, there was the actual nature of the favor, and there were the multiple readings of why Poptart didn't want to do it.
Whether you intend it or not, you are doing a pushy, demanding thing, where you are pressing for changes you want because you think they would be more realistic.
Oh, and also the reason for why I wanted the favor in the first place.
(Point of order: It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude. The latter is for matters of internal consistency, rather than likeness-to-our-universe.)
 
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The Wheel Turns Over, Part 3
The Wheel Turns Over, Part 3
The portal fails.

Shin blinks, looking at Whis. "What happened?"

The angel peers at the head of his staff, tilting it back and forth. "The energies they were giving off destabilized the portal." He shrugs. "It would seem that the show is over."

"What? So just make another one!" snaps Beerus. "I want to see how it ends!"

Whis shrugs. "Very well, Lord Beerus, but I honestly don't see the point. It'll just happen again." He tilts his staff, and a portal springs into being.

Shin gasps, doubling over as the feeling of Goku and Vegeta's powers slams into his skull. He grabs at his head, trying to modulate his senses -- failing-

The portal fizzles out, and Whis sighs.

Beerus growls. "Damn. I wanted to watch."

"No," says one of the Zenos.

"It's better this way!" says the other.

Piccolo hums, nodding. "They wouldn't really care if we watched, but they wanted to do this for them, not for anybody else."

Shin grimaces, staring at the air where the portal once hanged. "...still, I feel like we owed it to them to be there. I don't like just leaving them."

Beerus sighs. "Well, we'll just have to live with it. Frustrating as it is, we can't watch without being in the way. And I know they wouldn't thank us for that." He folds his arms. "I suppose that it doesn't matter. Either way...there's only one way it ends."

* * *
Goku and Vegeta clash a thousand times in a single heartbeat.

To the rare observer strong enough to actually somewhat vaguely track their movements, it would look like a spectacular, shifting light show. Streaks of blue rebound off of one another, describing mirrored half-circles over and over across a dozen arcs before repeating, shifting the pattern, repeating again, and on.

Those powerful enough to pick up a little more than that would see Goku and Vegeta circling, dashing back and forward, their limbs and bodies flickering as they close or throw blasts. They blur from place to place, only truly visible in still frames describing frozen moments of the fight -- Vegeta catching a strike here, Goku slapping away a blast there.

To Goku and Vegeta's eyes, it is actually very deliberate.

The two men drift at what feels like an almost lazy pace through the void they've made, trading shots and strikes. Powerful though they are, they are old, and fighting is always difficult. They both are sweating. Their breath comes quickly, inside the protective shell of their auras. It has been a long, brutal brawl. Vegeta's left leg is broken; Goku is missing a fair amount of skin down one side of his chest. They both are laboring. They both are exhausted.

At long last, Goku puts his fingers to his forehead and-

vip

-departs, leaving Vegeta stumbling in his rival's sudden absence.

Vegeta looks around, taking the moment to slump and regain some amount of energy. He pans around with his ki senses, searching-

His eyes widen, and he turns to the source as Goku begins to gather power for one last transformation. Vegeta nods once, and begins to mirror it without a word. As his ki begins to spike one last time, he half-turns and draws his hands back over his shoulder.

* * *
On the very edge of the universe, there are places which survived the cataclysm Vegeta and Goku wrought. On one such lonely planet, orbiting a massive star, Goku raises his hands overhead before drawing them down to his waist.

"Ka...me..."

* * *
Vegeta, surrounded by a storm of ki, takes a deep breath to bring himself under control. "Galick Gun..."

* * *
"Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa...meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee..."

Goku shakes under the strain of so much power, but he keeps it under control. As the planet begins to shake itself to pieces beneath him, he opens a line of telepathy to Vegeta. 'Just like old times, right Vegeta? We had a good run.'

* * *
Vegeta smiles, closing his eyes for a moment. 'The best. What we have done will never be forgotten. People will judge us as they like, but nothing will ever be the same again. I would have it no other way...Son Goku.'

His eyes open.

His hands snap out.

"FIRE!"

* * *
Goku's arms come up in a motion as natural to him as a breath. "HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!"



THE END

















































In a place where no light has ever shone, a being in a cloak made out of eye-twisting shadows opens his eyes.

"Finally."
 
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So I take it The Enemy would not have been a match for Goku and Vegeta then? Since they waited until they had died to start making their move. Also I just realized you retcon the story a bit:
Piccolo had, some years past, ascended to godhood through some means he shared with nobody. And a few minutes after the pair left Earth, he felt their energy spike.

Alone, entire light years away from any other living beings, the Prince of All Saiyans and the Hero of Earth fought each other in a last battle to the death. Of all the heroes of Earth, only Piccolo was able to sense the fight, and he paid vigil over the last moments of the two.

Modern astronomers have determined that the light of the last, cataclysmic blast of the duel reached Earth's solar system a little over two hundred years later, in Age 1057.
This no longer makes sense given that they fought in a separate universe.
 
So I take it The Enemy would not have been a match for Goku and Vegeta then? Since they waited until they had died to start making their move. Also I just realized you retcon the story a bit:

This no longer makes sense given that they fought in a separate universe.
This isn't what actually happened. Poptart was quite clear on that.

Rather, it's based on what the Exiles know/believe.
 
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...so exile tradition says that the Enemy was waiting for those two to die to show up?
They figured he would at least find it prudent to wait.
So I take it The Enemy would not have been a match for Goku and Vegeta then? Since they waited until they had died to start making their move. Also I just realized you retcon the story a bit:

This no longer makes sense given that they fought in a separate universe.
These snippets were never hard canon, remember? Think of this as a Dragon Ball movie. Where contradictions arise, rule in favor of the main series.
 
So was Shin's initial anxiousness just him knowing that Goku & Vegeta would basically be punished/sidelined once they were in the afterlife?
 
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