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Suffice to say that "ki users" in general includes a set of beings that, more often than not, can't breathe in space and so need a spaceship to traverse long distances in space. The trick of holding air within one's aura seems to be enough to enable operations in planetary orbit, but that's not going to cut the mustard for interplanetary journeys.

There are specific ki-using races that could conceivably survive in deep space long enough to manage an interstellar flight under their own power, but that list reduces to beings so tough that they can ALSO survive being blown into little pieces.

Since we wouldn't generalize "ki users can survive being blown to bits," we shouldn't generalize "ki users can manage interstellar flight under their own power."
 
Since we wouldn't generalize "ki users can survive being blown to bits," we shouldn't generalize "ki users can manage interstellar flight under their own power."

I mean, if they didn't need to breathe and could survive long enough to get to the next system, I don't see why they couldn't.

Those two conditions are pretty big asks tho', since the light speed limit appears to be in effect for physical motion.
 
I mean, if they didn't need to breathe and could survive long enough to get to the next system, I don't see why they couldn't.

Those two conditions are pretty big asks tho', since the light speed limit appears to be in effect for physical motion.
Does it? I don't remember that, and it would certainly make a linear speed scaling work poorly, which gives problems with the whole f=ma deal. If a normal fit person is ~PL 5, then saiyans could kiss light speed with kaioken, and super saiyans would have no real speed advantage over them. At minimum, the speed limit has to be higher than it is irl, and by a significant proportions or things rapidly break down to an absurd degree, and I Have other reasons to suspect that the limit is non extant besides the general lack of relativity.
 
Does it? I don't remember that, and it would certainly make a linear speed scaling work poorly, which gives problems with the whole f=ma deal. If a normal fit person is ~PL 5, then saiyans could kiss light speed with kaioken, and super saiyans would have no real speed advantage over them. At minimum, the speed limit has to be higher than it is irl, and by a significant proportions or things rapidly break down to an absurd degree, and I Have other reasons to suspect that the limit is non extant besides the general lack of relativity.

There are a bunch of stuff in Super and Z that reference their speed being super awesome by saying it's as fast as light.

Of course, Vegeta and Nappa's pods traveled FTL through realspace. So maybe it's just Toriyama being Toriyama and deciding consistency is for people who aren't overworked mangaka.
 
There are a bunch of stuff in Super and Z that reference their speed being super awesome by saying it's as fast as light.

Of course, Vegeta and Nappa's pods traveled FTL through realspace. So maybe it's just Toriyama being Toriyama and deciding consistency is for people who aren't overworked mangaka.
Charitably, that could just be a brag / hyperbole. What we do know though is that it doesn't work exactly like irl, or every interstellar civilization, and most strong fighters, would be in a lot of trouble with the gods and the time patrol. At minimum, objects can travel at speeds in excess of RL!Light speed without violating causality, and confisidering photons have 0 mass they should be able to go faster than anything with mass (which means all fighters, or their punches would do jack all) can. The only way to get around this is to break F=MA symmetry, and hoo boy does that rabbit hole go on.
 
Maybe relativistic mass is linear rather than exponential in DBZ.
That immediately throws relativity as a self-consistent set of physical laws out the window, to the point where there's no compelling reason to stick to "relativity" as a concept.

For that matter, (math man hat on) relativistic mass isn't exponential, the equation has a square root sign and a 'squared' and a minus sign in it, but no exponential of the form "number to the power of x." It increases much more slowly than an exponential function for low speeds, and much faster than an exponential for speeds approaching c.

But I know you mean 'exponential' as a poetic metaphor for 'gets big fast,' not a literal statement, so:

...

Basically, relativity is specifically a mathematical concept of two underlying assumptions:

1) That the observed speed of light, c, is a universal concept everywhere. No only is it impossible for you to outrun a beam of light, you can't make a beam of light 'seem' to move faster by approaching it head-on, the way that traffic in the opposing lanes of a freeway seems to be moving at 200 km/h relative to you. Nor can you make it seem to slow down by moving in the same direction it does, the way that the car in front of you on the highway appears not to be moving at all. EVERYONE, no matter which way they are traveling or at what speed, observes light to move at the same constant velocity.

2) There is no single vantage point to perceive the universe in which you get a metaphysically 'correct' view of the universe that is more 'accurate' than in any other view. There is no single place from which you can observe the cosmos where everything is inherently 'truly' right,

...

(1) requires that the laws of time and space be subject to distortion. If light moves at a constant speed, the perceived, observed speeds of everything else has to be negotiable; there can be no normal, fixed conception of distance or time. This is a seemingly absurd consequence, one with preposterous implications for the nature of reality. The only reason to believe such an intuitively ridiculous notion is because it is, experimentally, true.

(2) means that the laws of time and space must be symmetrical, in that we can't mandate that we start our calculations by saying something like "well, the observer who is REALLY at rest observes ABC, so that is what is "really" going on." This is where the 'relative' part of 'relativity' comes from, in that there is no objective difference between 'moving' and 'not moving.' Only 'objects move relative to one another.'

...

Both assumptions can potentially be false in Dragonball.

We have no compelling reason to believe that light in Dragonball is observed to travel at a fixed velocity by all observers. For all we know, the speed of light in Dragonball is "infinity," with light rays simply moving instantly from one place to another. Or it is merely "very very large," with light waves propagating so fast that they outpace even hellafast spacecraft, with the only way to outrun it being literal teleportation.

And we have every reason to assume that there is a metaphysically relevant privileged frame of reference in which all events can be observed to be "objectively" happening, because the universe was created by, and is sustained by, a small handful of beings who enjoy unique status that is relevant on some metaphysical level. Presumably, whatever location they like to camp out in, has special status that other places don't.
 
That immediately throws relativity as a self-consistent set of physical laws out the window, to the point where there's no compelling reason to stick to "relativity" as a concept.

For that matter, (math man hat on) relativistic mass isn't exponential, the equation has a square root sign and a 'squared' and a minus sign in it, but no exponential of the form "number to the power of x." It increases much more slowly than an exponential function for low speeds, and much faster than an exponential for speeds approaching c.

But I know you mean 'exponential' as a poetic metaphor for 'gets big fast,' not a literal statement, so:

...

Basically, relativity is specifically a mathematical concept of two underlying assumptions:

1) That the observed speed of light, c, is a universal concept everywhere. No only is it impossible for you to outrun a beam of light, you can't make a beam of light 'seem' to move faster by approaching it head-on, the way that traffic in the opposing lanes of a freeway seems to be moving at 200 km/h relative to you. Nor can you make it seem to slow down by moving in the same direction it does, the way that the car in front of you on the highway appears not to be moving at all. EVERYONE, no matter which way they are traveling or at what speed, observes light to move at the same constant velocity.

2) There is no single vantage point to perceive the universe in which you get a metaphysically 'correct' view of the universe that is more 'accurate' than in any other view. There is no single place from which you can observe the cosmos where everything is inherently 'truly' right,

...

(1) requires that the laws of time and space be subject to distortion. If light moves at a constant speed, the perceived, observed speeds of everything else has to be negotiable; there can be no normal, fixed conception of distance or time. This is a seemingly absurd consequence, one with preposterous implications for the nature of reality. The only reason to believe such an intuitively ridiculous notion is because it is, experimentally, true.

(2) means that the laws of time and space must be symmetrical, in that we can't mandate that we start our calculations by saying something like "well, the observer who is REALLY at rest observes ABC, so that is what is "really" going on." This is where the 'relative' part of 'relativity' comes from, in that there is no objective difference between 'moving' and 'not moving.' Only 'objects move relative to one another.'

...

Both assumptions can potentially be false in Dragonball.

We have no compelling reason to believe that light in Dragonball is observed to travel at a fixed velocity by all observers. For all we know, the speed of light in Dragonball is "infinity," with light rays simply moving instantly from one place to another. Or it is merely "very very large," with light waves propagating so fast that they outpace even hellafast spacecraft, with the only way to outrun it being literal teleportation.

And we have every reason to assume that there is a metaphysically relevant privileged frame of reference in which all events can be observed to be "objectively" happening, because the universe was created by, and is sustained by, a small handful of beings who enjoy unique status that is relevant on some metaphysical level. Presumably, whatever location they like to camp out in, has special status that other places don't.
Yeah, I just decided that given how we can effectively move FTL at FPSSJ and Poptart reasonably said they didn't want to have to deal with the implications of that, that "light in this quest moves arbitrarily faster than light in real life", with the galaxy/universe being equivalently more spread out to make FTL ships relevant, as opposed to just quickly flying between planets as an FPSSJ. I'm sure that breaks something in the physics somewhere, but it's sufficiently outside any reasonable look at the setting that even if I knew what did break it wouldn't bother me.
 
So, just assume that the galaxy is 100 million lightyears across with similarly spaced planets and a universe of similar size. Got it.
 
*sees FTL debate coming up again*

*goes back to writing about the magical adventures of a thirteen-year-old space ghost girl living in the head of a alien water drinker with antennae and magical powers*

*ignores topic completely*

*makes whooshing noises in lieu of relativistic theory*

*whoooooooooooooooooooosh*
 
So you know what's cool? We can throw ki blasts.

That's cool.

We should go into the ocean and blow shit up, it's fun and Bassoon totes said we could.

Maybe we should let him finish escaping first though...
 
I mean, sure it probably isn't normally possible without a space suit, a physiology that doesn't require air, speed enough that the 'bring oxygen with you' trick is sufficient for that, but Ki creation could probably manufacture air as you go, allowing even a Saiyan with a non-absurd power level to do it.
On a slightly meta side, Poptart said that we would be hopping around minds for a while before going back, so it might be worth using some of our Sight charge on seeing other possible destinations from the start. Personally, I recommend checking out new friends, old and new family and new enemies.
Relativity doesn't apply conventionally and *mumble mumble* ki use includes time travel or something? *mumble mumble*, *mumble mumble* vacuum constants *mumble mumble*.
 
Guys. You're all being silly. Solar Flare is a relevant combat technique.
Any fact that is casually entangled with another fact is meaningless, though, since that doesn't give you any metric for determining what is and isn't evidence.
Nonsense. Evidence is a relational quality, not an inherent one. Admittedly, I could have made that clearer in my last post.
There's also meaningful evidence that eating more cheese would improve our combat strength, but I don't plan to have Kakara do that either.
"They are both coherent concepts" is a very low bar in this context, although it is technically evidence. 'Meaningful' takes a bit more work, because it needs to hit kind-of-hazy thresholds for both reliability and specificity, which may or may not vary with context. That said, I'm curious to hear your argument for cheese-eating.
Again, assuming the wiki is reliable, here is an example of IT being used in a rather plot-relevant way in the manga.
Yeah, I sort of remember that. Why don't I remember him learning it?
 
Guys. You're all being silly. Solar Flare is a relevant combat technique.

Nonsense. Evidence is a relational quality, not an inherent one. Admittedly, I could have made that clearer in my last post.

"They are both coherent concepts" is a very low bar in this context, although it is technically evidence. 'Meaningful' takes a bit more work, because it needs to hit kind-of-hazy thresholds for both reliability and specificity, which may or may not vary with context. That said, I'm curious to hear your argument for cheese-eating.

Yeah, I sort of remember that. Why don't I remember him learning it?
"The fact that it's a comprehensible thought is technically evidence. Less pedantically, it seems weird to deliberately design a system where what food you eat leads absolutely nowhere."
Suffice to say, I don't think eating cheese is actually likely to buff our power level, I just don't consider "it's not impossible for it to be of use" at very relevant to "is it of use." Like, I sorta get the logc you're arguing, but I think that logic is kinda dumb because it's not useful for decisionmaking, and you can't use it to make predictions about the state of reality to a meaningful degree so it isn't a great prior to start from either.


Happened off screen. Anime gives a bit of a flashback, and iirc the manga does too? It's not treated as important where he got it from, although it does get a small callback in super.
 
Like, I sorta get the logc you're arguing, but I think that logic is kinda dumb because it's not useful for decisionmaking, and you can't use it to make predictions about the state of reality to a meaningful degree so it isn't a great prior to start from either.
I'm not sure where you think the flaw is, so I suspect communication failure. Can you give me a puzzle it seems bad for solving?
Because he learned it off-screen after namek exploded (and he spent about a year on planet yardrat)
Ah. I think I assumed he'd just flown back. That sounds reasonably familiar, though.
 
I'm not sure where you think the flaw is, so I suspect communication failure. Can you give me a puzzle it seems bad for solving?
My problem is that you're use of evidence as a descriptor doesn't mean anything. Under that definition, saying "I have evidence that X is true" doesn't actually correlate much with "X is true." Fundamentally, in how I use it, evidence is something that's used to distinguish between possibilities and is a key part in decision making, and while I get that words don't have an intrinsic meaning and are just a tool for mapping the concept space territory below, I'm not sure what you would even use that kind of mapping for. Since all facts are interrelated, I'm not sure what saying "these two facts are related" matters for if it makes no judgment on the utility and effect of that connection.
 
Ah. I think I assumed he'd just flown back. That sounds reasonably familiar, though.
He flew to yardrat And to earth in a stolen ginyu airship.

If it wasn't for trunks though he would not have made it in time for frieza "normally".

I think it's implied that in Trunks' original timeline he used "IT" to arrive faster once he sensed Frieza on Earth.

After Trunks goes back to the futuretm​ he shows and explain Instant Transmission for the first time.

He doesn't really use it for anything until he's healed from the heart virus and goes to gohan/trunks/vegeta to tell them about the hyperbolic time chamber, then to save tien and piccolo from semi-perfect cell, and finally for the IT Kamehameha/ teleport exploding cell away.

EDIT also to bring Dende to earth to make new dragonballs
 
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Vote Tally : Dragon Ball: After the End - Sci-Fi | Page 1379 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 34467-34560]
##### NetTally 1.9.10

[x] Combat Precognition. While she's unpracticed in it, its very nature means that it is literally a matter of life or death, whenever it would come up.
No. of Votes: 25

[X] No Sight. In fact. Kakara has a better idea, one leveraging her more mundane skills.
-[X] Offer to take over 'piloting' until Bassoon gets to his ship -- Kakara is very good at ki control, and might be able to get past the blockade with them none the wiser.
-[X] Give Bassoon control and swap to combat precog if it comes to a fight; Kakara's obviously not versed in using his body.
No. of Votes: 1

[x] Try donating your ki to him once we get clear of the blockade. It should be a useful trick for the future.
No. of Votes: 1

Total No. of Voters: 26

*cracks fingers*

Let's start things back up, shall we?

[x] Combat Precognition. While she's unpracticed in it, its very nature means that it is literally a matter of life or death, whenever it would come up.

Your winner. Vote closed.
 
Acknowledging that this is being ignored...

So, just assume that the galaxy is 100 million lightyears across with similarly spaced planets and a universe of similar size. Got it.
Yeah, I just decided that given how we can effectively move FTL at FPSSJ and Poptart reasonably said they didn't want to have to deal with the implications of that, that "light in this quest moves arbitrarily faster than light in real life", with the galaxy/universe being equivalently more spread out to make FTL ships relevant, as opposed to just quickly flying between planets as an FPSSJ. I'm sure that breaks something in the physics somewhere, but it's sufficiently outside any reasonable look at the setting that even if I knew what did break it wouldn't bother me.
Honestly, even if FPSSJ speeds are a billion or so times faster than 'regular people' speeds, you really DON'T need the galaxy to be spread out any farther than it is. In our universe, the speed of light is about a million times higher than the speed of bullet. Our benchmark is that people with power levels in the 10-ish range are tough enough to merely be stung by bullets, but not fast enough to dodge them reliably, so the ability to literally move at (what we in real life would call) the speed of light probably requires a power level well up into the millions.

Which means that even an FPSSJ has a power level such that they're cruising at, oh, 1000 times our speed of light. Which in turn means that they're not covering any interstellar distance without AT LEAST days of air supply, plus realistically food and water, and that would just get them between neighboring star systems in short hops where they would often find 'dead systems' and be unable to replenish their supplies. And if an interesting world was, say, 5% of the width of the galaxy away, you'd take years to get there. It would be like trying to cross the Pacific Ocean in a foot-powered paddle boat designed for tourism.

So there is literally no need to deliberately space the star systems farther apart.

Space is BIG, and even FPSSJs need spaceships to travel it, if only so they have a place to put all their snacks.
 
Acknowledging that this is being ignored...



Honestly, even if FPSSJ speeds are a billion or so times faster than 'regular people' speeds, you really DON'T need the galaxy to be spread out any farther than it is. In our universe, the speed of light is about a million times higher than the speed of bullet. Our benchmark is that people with power levels in the 10-ish range are tough enough to merely be stung by bullets, but not fast enough to dodge them reliably, so the ability to literally move at (what we in real life would call) the speed of light probably requires a power level well up into the millions.

Which means that even an FPSSJ has a power level such that they're cruising at, oh, 1000 times our speed of light. Which in turn means that they're not covering any interstellar distance without AT LEAST days of air supply, plus realistically food and water, and that would just get them between neighboring star systems in short hops where they would often find 'dead systems' and be unable to replenish their supplies. And if an interesting world was, say, 5% of the width of the galaxy away, you'd take years to get there. It would be like trying to cross the Pacific Ocean in a foot-powered paddle boat designed for tourism.

So there is literally no need to deliberately space the star systems farther apart.

Space is BIG, and even FPSSJs need spaceships to travel it, if only so they have a place to put all their snacks.
I agree, and we also scale to normal relativistic at basic super Saiyan from the fission explosions when we unlocked basic super saiyan, meaning that from scaling from that assuming linear speed increases for power level that we can move at a single digit multiple of the normal speed of light, which hardly allows for practical interstellar travel.
I assume that the spread of scaling to this feat or that should give ranges hovering in the lower faster than light. A different calculation using the average human power level of 5 and googled average running speed and linear power scaling for speed gives me like 45 times the speed of light, but it isn't a exact science.
 
Hence why it was a big deal to get capsules! We can just carry capsules of air, water, and snacks!
I mean yes, but you'd still want some kind of enclosed space to put the air in, and so you can sleep.

Ultimately what it comes down to is that even if ships take single-digit years to cross the galaxy, there is no reason to think that FPSS natural flight abilities make either a faster or a more practical alternative for interplanetary travel.

I agree, and we also scale to normal relativistic at basic super Saiyan from the fission explosions when we unlocked basic super saiyan, meaning that from scaling from that assuming linear speed increases for power level that we can move at a single digit multiple of the normal speed of light, which hardly allows for practical interstellar travel.
I assume that the spread of scaling to this feat or that should give ranges hovering in the lower faster than light. A different calculation using the average human power level of 5 and googled average running speed and linear power scaling for speed gives me like 45 times the speed of light, but it isn't a exact science.
Let's not try to be super-precise here; these are at most order of magnitude estimations, not 'calculations' in a meaningful sense.
 
I mean yes, but you'd still want some kind of enclosed space to put the air in, and so you can sleep.

Ultimately what it comes down to is that even if ships take single-digit years to cross the galaxy, there is no reason to think that FPSS natural flight abilities make either a faster or a more practical alternative for interplanetary travel.

Let's not try to be super-precise here; these are at most order of magnitude estimations, not 'calculations' in a meaningful sense.
Yeah, I mostly came away with '10x the speed of light, plus or minus an order of magnitude' though the estimate was just an example, which I probably should have made clearer.
 
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