Dragon Ball: After the End

Simon_Jester · Nov 9, 2018

Perhaps they fear the adverse consequences of using the dragonballs repeatedly in too short a span of time. Isn't that, like, much of the plot of GT?

Perhaps they have a pact with the dragon that predates the story canon agreeing not to spam the dragon with requests more than, say, ten times in a row without giving him a century to rest.

Perhaps the dragon actually gets tired out and cannot grant wishes at maximum rate if repeatedly summoned in a short span of time.

Jirachi47 said:
Also, this might all be completely pointless because we can pull off a Spirit Saiyan / Genki Dama, and completely blow them out of the sky without worrying too much. On the other hand, the ability to train a 'personal guard' that would let us form the spirit bomb without interference would probably be very helpful.

It has become traditional for saiyans fighting in defense of the Namekian world and race to ask the Namekians to guard them and hold off the enemy while they charge up their super attack... for five minutes.

KaintukeeBob · Nov 9, 2018

Simon_Jester said:
Isn't that, like, much of the plot of GT?

Didn't that like, not happen? I think we all agreed it didn't happen.

Please tell me it didn't happen.

Simon_Jester said:
It has become traditional for saiyans fighting in defense of the Namekian world and race to ask the Namekians to guard them and hold off the enemy while they charge up their super attack... for five minutes.

Only if they're holding a grudge.

Simon_Jester · Nov 9, 2018

KaintukeeBob said:
Didn't that like, not happen? I think we all agreed it didn't happen.

Please tell me it didn't happen.

I mean, maybe it didn't happen, but maybe it's a thing that could happen and the Namekians don't want it to happen. Or maybe there's something else about the dragonballs that keeps you from just spamming powerful wishes from them every year for centuries.

Jirachi47 · Nov 9, 2018

Simon_Jester said:
I mean, maybe it didn't happen, but maybe it's a thing that could happen and the Namekians don't want it to happen. Or maybe there's something else about the dragonballs that keeps you from just spamming powerful wishes from them every year for centuries.

Well... Canonically didn't Super happen, and Super is not compatible with GT happening?

Simon_Jester · Nov 9, 2018

Look. All I know is, from Dragonball canon the dragonballs are a very poorly understood MacGuffin that grants wishes. I can think of a LOT of reasons, hypothetically, why it might not be as simple to use them as "you get to use them once a year forever without consequence." Or for why that might be true of Earth's dragonballs but not Namek's. Or whatever.

Note that prior to the events of canon, the Namekians did NOT show any sign of having used their control of and access to their dragonballs to spam wishes at a rate of three per Namekian year. Note that they didn't have some elite cadre of warriors who'd been granted immortality by the dragon, for instance, which would be one obvious thing to do if you had lots of dragonball wishes. Like, why wasn't Nail immortal? It might not have enabled him to actually beat Frieza, but seriously, how does it make sense not to upgrade your planet's strongest defender if you have the means to do so?

We can come up with explanations and justifications for why the pre-Frieza Saga Namekians didn't wish for this or that thing in particular, but the point remains that in general they appear to have made very little use of their dragonballs except as an emergency measure. I don't see why that would have changed.

...

Anyway, practical upshot is, we shouldn't just assume that the Namekians have already used ~1000 dragonball wishes to bolster their defenses such that no further wishes could do them any good. Which is the original counterargument I was disputing.

QTesseract · Nov 9, 2018

Jirachi47 said:
Well... Canonically didn't Super happen, and Super is not compatible with GT happening?

That's not an rp spoiler. That's front page.

poptart said:
This takes takes as canon the full runs of Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, and Dragon Ball Super, any movies that contradict none of the above/are sufficiently cool for me not to care (except for the Hirudegarn movie, which is not canon in this continuity), and very carefully selected redeemable concepts from Dragon Ball GT.

Simon_Jester · Nov 9, 2018

Right.

Basically, if Poptart wants the idea that it's possible to overuse a set of dragonballs in one way or another, Poptart is well within their rights to extract that concept from GT.

CaesriusPolybius · Nov 9, 2018

Jirachi47 said:
Well... Canonically didn't Super happen, and Super is not compatible with GT happening?

IIRC Super is actually not incompatible with GT; it explicitly happens during the timeskip at the end of Z/prior to GT.

That said, the lack of the god forms appearing in GT *(for obvious watsonian reasons, but nevermind) does raise questions, so presumably any version of GT occuring following Super would be different in several ways.

*barring possibly SSj4 Gogeta, but that's just my wierd theory and has no backing beyond "but wait, why the fuck is his hair red"

QTesseract · Nov 9, 2018

Simon_Jester said:
Right.

Basically, if Poptart wants the idea that it's possible to overuse a set of dragonballs in one way or another, Poptart is well within their rights to extract that concept from GT.

Sure, but that was one of the dumber concepts from GT, so I really doubt it will resemble GT remotely even if it was included. Overuse penalties of that sort don't even make sense thematically, considering they already have the year long cooldown in any case.

CaesriusPolybius said:
IIRC Super is actually not incompatible with GT; it explicitly happens during the timeskip at the end of Z/prior to GT.

That said, the lack of the god forms appearing in GT *(for obvious watsonian reasons, but nevermind) does raise questions, so presumably any version of GT occuring following Super would be different in several ways.

*barring possibly SSj4 Gogeta, but that's just my wierd theory and has no backing beyond "but wait, why the fuck is his hair red"

super is wildly incomparable with GT. GT was only arguably compliant with DBZ, and super throws that way out the window. Basically everything shows this, honestly, from Kibito Kai being a thing to no one baby fights with using their powers to no Beerus, etc etc etc.

Simon_Jester · Nov 9, 2018

QTesseract said:
Sure, but that was one of the dumber concepts from GT, so I really doubt it will resemble GT remotely even if it was included. Overuse penalties of that sort don't even make sense thematically, considering they already have the year long cooldown in any case.

I don't know. To me it works thematically. A lot of tools, if used over and over as fast as they can be used many times longer than they were expected to NEED to be used, will eventually break.

QTesseract · Nov 9, 2018

Simon_Jester said:
I don't know. To me it works thematically. A lot of tools, if used over and over as fast as they can be used many times longer than they were expected to NEED to be used, will eventually break.

Sure, but the specific method of breaking was poor, they already had the cooldown (notably, a longer one than namek has), the wishes chosen were arbitrary, nobody knew about it; the list goes on. It wasn't helped by the fact that it came in the same series awful black star dragon ball arc, either, but that isn't entirely its fault.

Simon_Jester · Nov 9, 2018

Okay, I'll concede the bulk of that, but now we're getting down into the weeds at a point that isn't very helpful.

What meant to say is that in and of itself there's nothing wrong with the idea that the dragonballs, if used repeatedly in rapid succession at the limit permitted by their 'cooldown,' could eventually fail or in some way Go Wrong. Even if the entire arc from GT is justifiably retconned out of existence...

Well, that doesn't mean that the idea of 'it is possible to overuse dragonballs in some way' isn't automatically invalid. Especially if it gives us a reason why it's bad idea to just use the dragonballs nonstop for decades, thus closing a rather obnoxious loophole where we all congratulate ourselves on finding some brilliant Rational Fic 'obvious lifehack' by which the Namekians can win at everything forever.

Again, the pre-Frieza Saga Namekians weren't stupid, and they weren't using their dragonballs every six months as far as we can tell.

Aranfan · Nov 9, 2018

The dragon balls going to shit in GT was them deciding to make the old supreme kai's horror at how often the Z warriors used the dragonballs into forshadowing.

Goi · Nov 10, 2018

So apparently the dragon ball manga(I say apparently because haven't found it myself but where I got this has had manga chapter pages so grain of salt) has revealed more information on SSB.

SSGSS or SSB has three stages. The first sate or initial SSB has a regular white aura like an SS(aka the form as used against freza). The next stage is advanced SSB which is when small flames form around the aura(this was gained after years of training in the room of spirit and time). Last is Mastered SSB which is when the flames merge with the aura(this was gained in the Tournament of power).

Also for all forms the power of SSB is at its greatest in the frist few seconds after transforming but by sealing the power inside your body you can maintain that power and the aura will only appear when you are using your full power

On the topic of the whole evil dragon thing from GT the ideal was great personally but it was rather badly done

ilbgar123 · Nov 10, 2018

So, uh, here's a thought. What's the likelihood of The Enemy having accomplices a la Galactus? Basically he goes 'Help me kill the Saiyans, and I won't kill your town/civilization/planet.' and they follow him, like some kind of Organization XIII deal.

Simon_Jester · Nov 10, 2018

ilbgar123 said:
So, uh, here's a thought. What's the likelihood of The Enemy having accomplices a la Galactus? Basically he goes 'Help me kill the Saiyans, and I won't kill your town/civilization/planet.' and they follow him, like some kind of Organization XIII deal.

I mean, I'm pretty sure he can recruit people if he wants or cares to, yeah?

It's a bit unclear what his actual goals are.

ilbgar123 · Nov 10, 2018

I'm just saying we should beware getting suckerpunched by someone when The Enemy finally shows up. He'd probably go for people who have really esoteric stuff, like Guldo, so we shouldn't assume being strong enough to fight The Enemy on an even playing field (or at least not die quickly) means we're not vulnerable to such.

KaintukeeBob · Nov 10, 2018

Simon_Jester said:
It's a bit unclear what his actual goals are.

We know at least one of his current (or near-future) short-term goals is to complete his eradication of the Saiyan race.

This is also likely to be the most relevant goal the Enemy has, so far as we are concerned.

That said, knowing any other goals he has may be useful, too.

Goi · Nov 12, 2018

The best possible ideal for looking in to the Enemy would be its fight with Frieza since it caused it to go missing for a 100 years I think. So at worse we have a better ideal of what the Enemy can do but with luck we know why he Enemy fought with Frieza despite seeming to be focused on the Sayians

KaintukeeBob · Nov 12, 2018

Goi said:
The best possible ideal for looking in to the Enemy would be its fight with Frieza since it caused it to go missing for a 100 years I think. So at worse we have a better ideal of what the Enemy can do but with luck we know why he Enemy fought with Frieza despite seeming to be focused on the Sayians

This is actually a pretty good idea, TBH.

I just wonder if Seeing the Enemy is a good plan. If he has freaky powers, who's to say he can't detect when he is being Seen? This could give him info that Saiyans with Kanasan Sight (in other words, Goku's brood) still exist.

Goi · Nov 12, 2018

KaintukeeBob said:
This is actually a pretty good idea, TBH.

I just wonder if Seeing the Enemy is a good plan. If he has freaky powers, who's to say he can't detect when he is being Seen? This could give him info that Saiyans with Kanasan Sight (in other words, Goku's brood) still exist.

Well if he can then that is done since we saw him kill and I forgot the name. the cousin as well doesn't every seer see him as part of the first main test thing(which we did super early)

KaintukeeBob · Nov 12, 2018

Goi said:
Well if he can then that is done since we saw him kill and I forgot the name. the cousin as well doesn't every seer see him as part of the first main test thing(which we did super early)

To paraphrase Team Four Star's song about Mr. Popo,

"We're doomed, aren't we Dad?"

"We always were, Gohan, we always were."

Jirachi47 · Nov 14, 2018

...I just realized that we can start training Golden Oozaru now that we aren't on Garenhuld, to see if there's some sort of extra bonus in there, or maybe even go SSJ2.
I feel a bit silly.
I'm happy that we seem to have a lot of options in combating the fleet, and am not particularily worried about being able to defend the planet when required. Between our Sight, Jaffur's style effect, and Spirit Bomb, I think we are basically covered.

KaintukeeBob · Nov 14, 2018

I don't know what we can really train with regards to GO, given that we already control the form, and have reached FPSSJ. We can't increase the SSJ ki pool, we have reached the limit of PL training the monkey can take, and we have no real reason to think there's other things to find within that transformation.

Maybe if we need a certain PL to break SSJ2 and GO will get us there, it'd be useful. But (IC and OOC) I have no idea what the PL requirements for SSJ2 might be, excepting the 'epiphany' others have mentioned.

Our time is better spent training our Sight and gathering Intel. If our Sight shows us something that would be useful to learn (such as Seeing ourselves fighting as SSJ2 or using a technique we don't already know) we should make an effort towards it.

Pittauro · Nov 14, 2018

KaintukeeBob said:
I don't know what we can really train with regards to GO, given that we already control the form, and have reached FPSSJ. We can't increase the SSJ ki pool, we have reached the limit of PL training the monkey can take, and we have no real reason to think there's other things to find within that transformation.

Maybe if we need a certain PL to break SSJ2 and GO will get us there, it'd be useful. But (IC and OOC) I have no idea what the PL requirements for SSJ2 might be, excepting the 'epiphany' others have mentioned.

Our time is better spent training our Sight and gathering Intel. If our Sight shows us something that would be useful to learn (such as Seeing ourselves fighting as SSJ2 or using a technique we don't already know) we should make an effort towards it.

i suppose we might try to access all of our ki pools at once (base, oozaru and ssj).

base+oozaru at once would probably get something similar to ssj4, if working differently in this quest (if it's even possible). Add ssj boost for a blonde version.

It would take time though, and even if it's possible it might be harder/impossible to achieve as a shade.

Dragon Ball: After the End

Temp Banned

Temp Banned

Time Lady

Temp Banned

Biribiri

Temp Banned

Worldgate Mechanic

Biribiri

Temp Banned

Biribiri

Temp Banned

Team Plasma Grunt

Temp Banned

Time Lady