Voting is open
Can I just mention that I think this is a good example of how the thread consistently misjudges things? It gets paranoid over stuff that doesn't require it, and fails to do so over stuff that does need it.
We learn from experience, but if a few paranoid checks amount to nothing, we "learn" that they're a waste of time, if not actively harmful. It's why I try and push for extra contingencies and checks to be added to plans whenever it won't cost us anything, even if they're overkill. They probably won't find anything, but why not?

Of course, when it will cost something, it's much harder to judge.
 
Alright, vote closed!

Vote Tally : Dragon Ball: After the End - Sci-Fi | Page 1282 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 32031-32101]
##### NetTally 1.9.10

[X] Dart in close and take your time with this bastard. Let him feel how helpless he is. Don't go straight for the kill; just spend your time knocking him around. (Canon route, x2 vote weighting.)
No. of Votes: 9

[X] Get in there and kill him immediately. Your son is still here.
No. of Votes: 4

[X] You're not much one for blasts, but Freeza must know that too, by now. How furious would he be if blasting was all you decided to do right now? Make him dance. (x2 vote weighting.)
No. of Votes: 3

[X] Fire up a Kamehameha and erase him. Let him feel what Krillin felt.
No. of Votes: 2

Total No. of Voters: 18

As it turned out, canon didn't need the vote weighting.

[X] Dart in close and take your time with this bastard. Let him feel how helpless he is. Don't go straight for the kill; just spend your time knocking him around. (Canon route, x2 vote weighting.)
 
If Super Saiyan wasn't restricted, Dandeer would never have been able to accomplish anything, and Dazarel wouldn't even remotely have been a threat to Garenhuld.
On the other hand...

1) The odds of someone blowing up Garenhuld through carelessness would be increased.
2) The transformation is emotionally challenging, so the odds of someone blowing up or badly damaging Garenhuld in a fit of rage would be increased.
3) With thousands or even tens or hundreds of thousands of super-saiyans, the odds of one of them ascending to the second level, spontaneously or by intent, would be greatly increased. Then the Enemy shows up, planet-devouring magics or what have you fall, everyone dies.
4) It would be nearly impossible to govern an entire civilization of super-saiyans, especially if you can't use any of the higher forms for fear of "planet-devouring magics or what have you fall, everyone dies." The ability of organized bodies of outlaws to defy police means things basically devolve to anarchist super-saiyans, and it just falls apart.

The Super Saiyan restriction really does seem to primarily be about keeping the line of Lady Garla in power, and it might really not be necessary for political unity at this point, especially if there could be a reformation to some sort of democracy.
I don't think that'd last, you see. Too much potential for explosively ugly politics, especially with even hybrid saiyans having, on average, a considerable predilection for violence.

At the very least, I'd much rather have Super Saiyan be restricted to an elected body trusted by the Saiyans as a whole (possibly vetted by both Seers, Mind Delve and Sorcerers) than have Super Saiyans determined by nepotism.
Well, we already have the Seers doing vetting.

I mean, we can at the very least have Super Saiyan be legal for anyone, while FPSSJ is only legal for an elected body vetted by both Seers and Sorcery,. We don't need to hide FPSSJ to prevent people from obtaining it, we just need to stop anyone from illegally training it up (which would be damn near impossible, since not even Dandelor's wards could withstand the power of a Super Saiyan). While ordinary Super Saiyans aren't as strong as FPSSJs, they'd at least be useful in a fight and able to overwhelm FPSSJ-level foes by sheer numbers, especially if they had access to the form Vegeta used against Semi-Perfect Cell.
The thing is, training FPSS just takes practice. Like, it's just "Super-Saiyan plus endurance training." The only reason Vegeta didn't manage it during the Cell Saga, as far as I can tell, is because he focused too much of his effort on unlocking transformations of the form rather than just mastering it.

Notably, I don't think he ever attained Super Saiyan Three in canon as far as I know, but he DID manage to keep up, attain godhood in Super, and generally remain effective, which may have been an example of his learning his lesson about a mastered lower form being better than a flashy, power-hungry transformed form.

Also, Seers would likely be getting warnings about people possibly going SSJ2, which would allow the government to prevent that from happening.
If the Seers are having to constantly strain themselves to find all the many many ways this can happen with large numbers of super-saiyans in play, it's going to get out of hand. There's only so many of them, we've learned to our terrible cost that they're not tamper-proof, and they're capable of missing things.

Yeah, current saiyan society is not yet ready for free access to the transformation. We COULD try for limited access, but then we have the problem of "why him but not me!?"

Things might change once Kakara becomes Lady though. She and Jaffur would probably have a lot more support than Berra and (especially) Vegeta ever did.
Letting the heads of each individual house transform, and no one else, might work.

We might also be able to create a "royal guard" of designated super-saiyans whose personal loyalty is exemplary, whose fighting skill and valor are beyond question, and whose number is fixed and small. I nominate Tabe Stauber as head of the organization.
 
The point is that the FPSSJ should be an elected body, alongside or part of a similarly elected democratic government (Scions, Lords/Ladies and previous Lords/Ladies could still retain the same right in some sort of constiutional monarchy). "Why him and not" be could then be answered "because you bloody hell voted for him", which is a better explanation than "because nepotism".
The thing is, people accept nepotism as long as it's part of a closed social system and the monarchs don't disgrace themselves too badly over time.

It's not optimal but we can live with it, which under present conditions is very important.

In addition, due to the population boom under Berra/Vegeta/Yamma/Apra, the Clans are losing much their power and relevance, and Poptart's mentioned that Berra's having trouble controlling the current population, so we really do need a government reform (for instance, I'm not sure if there's any kind of civil service). Clan Heads probably aren't going to support a stronger central government that takes away their privileges, so we might as well go for democracy rather than absolute monarchy.
Again, I'm not sure that all the same forms of government that work well for normal humans will work well for a race of fighty, recklessness-prone individuals who can obtain the powers of Superman through moderately intense martial arts training.

There's really no reason the rulers would need to be able to personally overpower all their subjects at once to make society work, every government on Earth seems to be fine without.
The ruler doesn't need to be able to overpower all their subjects. They DO need to be able to arrange to have any given thousand of their subjects overpowered before they cause unacceptable collateral damage.

We have no viable means of doing that in the face of a thousand rebellious FPSSes... and a thousand FPSSes is a perfectly reasonable threat parameter for "weird revolutionary conspiracy/cult threat" in a population where everyone's a super-saiyan.

Right now the current system is necessary for hiding from the Enemy as well as from the Garenhulders, but it might not be the best system if we want to actually defeat the Enemy or any truly powerful enemies, and it's certainly wouldn't be necessary if the Enemy is defeated.
Okay, but we VERY much need to balance the ideal goal of defeating the Enemy against the need to survive long enough to do so.

Like, if Kakara dies peacefully in her old age, having left behind her a happy, successful lineage of royals on an only mildly reformed Garenhuld, without having made more than incremental progress towards Operation Kill the Enemy, I'm still going to count that as a win condition unless given reason to do otherwise.

The thing is that they wouldn't be able to show their true maximum anywhere, since there's no wards other than the hall strong enough for them to hide behind, so any attempt to gain FPSSJ would be noticed.
If there's one thing Dandeer's taught us, it's that sorcerors can do really freaking impressively powerful things without anyone noticing. I wouldn't bet on sorcerors NOT being able to secretly construct wards capable of hiding FPSS-level powers, at least on the scale of a small training chamber. The Hall is far, far larger than that, after all.

I suspect that one of the main reasons none of the Houses get to have super-saiyan-grade wards under the existing systems is that the royals can take that as a priori evidence of an intent to train super saiyan and stage a revolt, at which point they just penalize the House, confiscate its assets, and otherwise grind its face into the dirt.

In the absence of an official monopoly on the transformation, that doesn't work.

And the point of a more democratic form of government where everyone is a Super Saiyan (or even a FPSSJ, though I agree that's risky due to the risk of somebody accidentally going SSJ2 and alerting the Enemy) is that you can't just gather a small group of people to overthrow the government, since they'd be outnumbered by the just-as-individually-powerful loyal citizens.
No, but you can have small groups of people feud among themselves and blow holes in continents as collateral damage. You can have quite sizeable conspiracies develop in secret, which then strike in a coordinated fashion. You can have, in general, disruption.

That doesn't change the fact that, taking both personality and talents into account, he's probably just as suited for the role of strongest fighter than any current FPSSJ save Jaffur (Kakara's more talented than Tabe, but she doesn't really have a drive to train unless she has a specific goal). Heck, that lady who fought Cynthia in the tournament would probably absolutely wreck every single current FPSSJ at equal power levels.
Going by what I've seen and what I know about Mitsuba...

Mitsuba Roma would win handily against Kakara in a fight at equal power levels, by virtue of having Master rank in a style and a few actual combat traits. But that really isn't saying very much given how not-fighty-specced Kakara is.

I'm pretty sure at this point- not 100%, but pretty sure, she could take Apra. Though I may just be underwhelmed by her performance against Yammar. I mean JEEZ if she'd just held out long enough for us to senzu, we'd have won this one, I don't blame Grandma for having her heart in the right place but JEEZ. :(

I don't know about Lord Vegeta; we haven't really seen him fully cut loose. As of about eight years ago, she thought she could do it. Probably.

But in a fight between her and Jaffur or Berra at equal baseline power levels?

Honestly, I'd place odds on Berra, though not easily, and he'd probably win by abusing the hell out of Instant Transmission, which she does not have, and which he's integrated into his Goku Style to a remarkable degree. They're both masters of a style, but he's inspired in the art of dueling on a level she can't quite match, and I'm sure he has some respectable combat traits. Plus, y'know, being an expert in the art of tactical teleportation, which makes Mitsuba's version of distance control rather harder to maintain.

I'd definitely bet on Jaffur being able to beat Mitsuba at equal power levels. Jaffur, as he was at quest start, was almost certainly more than a match for her. Remember that he was giving her a bit of a workout in Auger, even at five and a half or so with his style still in the nascent prototypical form and half his signature attacks unfinished.

And I'm inclined to add Yammar to the list of "royals who could probably beat Mitsuba in a fair fight at equal power level," too. In his case that's in large part due to extended training; Yammar is at least in his fifties and aging like fine wine as far as his martial skills are concerned. Whereas Mitsuba is, what, thirty-four? I don't remember exactly, but she's got about half his experience.

Jaffur, to be fair, has half her experience, but he's a combat prodigy on a level that she isn't, not that she'd let that discourage her permanently.

"...Yet." :D

EDIT: Just to be clear, I'm not saying Mitsuba is any better as a fighter than any of the other top-tier Cap Circuit contenders; the only reason she's that good is because, well, plot necessitated that she be a Cap Circuit contender.
 
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1) The odds of someone blowing up Garenhuld through carelessness would be increased.
Not really. Pretty much all Saiyans have the capability to do so. It's not hard.
2) The transformation is emotionally challenging, so the odds of someone blowing up or badly damaging Garenhuld in a fit of rage would be increased.
3) With thousands or even tens or hundreds of thousands of super-saiyans, the odds of one of them ascending to the second level, spontaneously or by intent, would be greatly increased. Then the Enemy shows up, planet-devouring magics or what have you fall, everyone dies.
4) It would be nearly impossible to govern an entire civilization of super-saiyans, especially if you can't use any of the higher forms for fear of "planet-devouring magics or what have you fall, everyone dies." The ability of organized bodies of outlaws to defy police means things basically devolve to anarchist super-saiyans, and it just falls apart.
All good points, though #4 can be compensated by various social methods, but expect fragmentation.
Letting the heads of each individual house transform, and no one else, might work.

We might also be able to create a "royal guard" of designated super-saiyans whose personal loyalty is exemplary, whose fighting skill and valor are beyond question, and whose number is fixed and small. I nominate Tabe Stauber as head of the organization.
Honestly, I would go with that. One of the issues is that any Saiyan is going to have connections/loyalty to their House. We'd either have to expand the Royal Houses and have the non-Scions serve(which is its own issue), or recruit outsiders. I nominate Maya.
That doesn't change the fact that, taking both personality and talents into account, he's probably just as suited for the role of strongest fighter than any current FPSSJ save Jaffur (Kakara's more talented than Tabe, but she doesn't really have a drive to train unless she has a specific goal). Heck, that lady who fought Cynthia in the tournament would probably absolutely wreck every single current FPSSJ at equal power levels.
Going by what I've seen and what I know about Mitsuba...

Mitsuba Roma would win handily against Kakara in a fight at equal power levels, by virtue of having Master rank in a style and a few actual combat traits. But that really isn't saying very much given how not-fighty-specced Kakara is.

I'm pretty sure at this point- not 100%, but pretty sure, she could take Apra. Though I may just be underwhelmed by her performance against Yammar. I mean JEEZ if she'd just held out long enough for us to senzu, we'd have won this one, I don't blame Grandma for having her heart in the right place but JEEZ. :(

I don't know about Lord Vegeta; we haven't really seen him fully cut loose. As of about eight years ago, she thought she could do it. Probably.

But in a fight between her and Jaffur or Berra at equal baseline power levels?

Honestly, I'd place odds on Berra, though not easily, and he'd probably win by abusing the hell out of Instant Transmission, which she does not have, and which he's integrated into his Goku Style to a remarkable degree. They're both masters of a style, but he's inspired in the art of dueling on a level she can't quite match, and I'm sure he has some respectable combat traits. Plus, y'know, being an expert in the art of tactical teleportation, which makes Mitsuba's version of distance control rather harder to maintain.

I'd definitely bet on Jaffur being able to beat Mitsuba at equal power levels. Jaffur, as he was at quest start, was almost certainly more than a match for her. Remember that he was giving her a bit of a workout in Auger, even at five and a half or so with his style still in the nascent prototypical form and half his signature attacks unfinished.

And I'm inclined to add Yammar to the list of "royals who could probably beat Mitsuba in a fair fight at equal power level," too. In his case that's in large part due to extended training; Yammar is at least in his fifties and aging like fine wine as far as his martial skills are concerned. Whereas Mitsuba is, what, thirty-four? I don't remember exactly, but she's got about half his experience.

Jaffur, to be fair, has half her experience, but he's a combat prodigy on a level that she isn't, not that she'd let that discourage her permanently.

"...Yet." :D

EDIT: Just to be clear, I'm not saying Mitsuba is any better as a fighter than any of the other top-tier Cap Circuit contenders; the only reason she's that good is because, well, plot necessitated that she be a Cap Circuit contender.
An interesting perspective, but not what I agree with it. It's mentioned that Lord Vegeta and Lord Goku are viewed as the "paragons" of Vegeta and Goku Style, suggesting they may be the best/most skilled practitioners of those styles, and we know that they are/were either equal, or close enough that a fight between them wasn't a certainty.

By all indications, considering he's a Master of multiple styles, Yammar is really skilled fighter. And I wouldn't call her performance underwhelming: she had Yammar on the backfoot until he managed to get in close. And considering that, according to the History section on the front page, she and Yammar managed to subdue Vegeta and Berra, I would definitely say that they're better.

So here's my guess:
Yammar > Apra > Jaffur > Berra > Vegeta (due to the Sealing) >>> Kakara

With all the ones above Kakara being at least the equal of any top-tier tournament fighter.
 
Hmm. Naively, I would expect the royals to get absolutely styled on by any professional saiyan fighter, given equal power levels. Yammar is strong and skilled, but he trains between his other duties; certainly, the time he spent ruling clan vegeta was time spent away from combat. Add in the fact that the pool of non SSjs>>>>royals and that the non royals do their training to fight people on equal power level...
 
Since it's seeming more and more likely we're going to come up with our own fighting style, anyone got loose themes/overall ideas? I'm think a focus on redirecting opponents attacks to fit with the pacifist theme.
 
Hmm. Naively, I would expect the royals to get absolutely styled on by any professional saiyan fighter, given equal power levels. Yammar is strong and skilled, but he trains between his other duties; certainly, the time he spent ruling clan vegeta was time spent away from combat. Add in the fact that the pool of non SSjs>>>>royals and that the non royals do their training to fight people on equal power level...
On the other hand, the Royals are selected, and one of their fundamental duties is protecting the Exiles by being their strongest fighters. Presumably, potential in combat is one of the criteria.

There's also the fact that the biggest risks for the Royals to face are:
a) a rogue royal.
b) super saiyan rebels.

Being highly skilled is thus likely to be viewed by most royals as absolutely required.
 
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On the other hand, the Royals are selected, and one of their fundamental duties is protecting the Exiles by being their strongest fighters. Presumably, potential in combat is one of the criteria.

There's also the fact that the biggest risks for the Royals to face are:
a) a rogue royal.
b) super saiyan rebels.

Being highly skilled is thus likely to be viewed by most royals as absolutely required.
Sure, that's definitely the case. I would classify just about every royal as being within the ranks of professional fighters, given that that's what they are. They probably also get more out of a given training session.

With that being said, though, I'm not sure it's anywhere near enough. Population size counts for a lot; even if Yammar is in the 99th percentile despite the other demands on his time and the lack of peer foes, that still means there are over a dozen saiyan a with better technical fighting skills. Add in the fact that those are true, and I'd be surprised if he rated even that highly.
 
And even discounting that, the current Exile culture is toxic, and wouldn't be able to support such things properly.

Yeah, but I think currently Exile culture is toxic partially because society is held together by the fact that the monarchs essentially rule by virtue of their might.
And the idea of giving FPSSJ to elected officials is just a horrible idea in general, for the simple fact that it's irreversible. Ex-US Presidents don't retain the ability to launch nuclear weapons after all.
We might also be able to create a "royal guard" of designated super-saiyans whose personal loyalty is exemplary, whose fighting skill and valor are beyond question, and whose number is fixed and small. I nominate Tabe Stauber as head of the organization.
Okay, yeah, I agree that having FPSSJs be the elected government is probably a bad idea, but some kind of Royal Guard really seems to be the best solution if we want relevant fighters (with some being selected by the Monarchs and others being chosen by the public).
The ruler doesn't need to be able to overpower all their subjects. They DO need to be able to arrange to have any given thousand of their subjects overpowered before they cause unacceptable collateral damage.

We have no viable means of doing that in the face of a thousand rebellious FPSSes... and a thousand FPSSes is a perfectly reasonable threat parameter for "weird revolutionary conspiracy/cult threat" in a population where everyone's a super-saiyan.
Actually, "Monopoly on Violence" is basically the fundamental underpinnings of a nation. The moment a state loses that, then it's quickly going to either shrink or go to shit.
Well, the point is that we'd reform the state so that we get an actual army, police force and civil service so we actually end up with a proper government. A thousand FPJSSes wouldn't be a threat if we had 10,000 directly on call and 290'000 were otherwise loyal.

As for collateral damage, 300'000 Super Saiyans (FPSSJ or not) would likely give us enough combined power to make some pretty powerful wards on Garenhuld to prevent collateral damage.

Note that currently I don't think we actually have that much ability to prevent any one Saiyan from blowing up the planet if the wanted to either, since they could just power down to a power level of 40,000 and then charge up a blast powerful enough to blow the planet without anyone noticing (Seers can prevent it, of course, but not any better than they'd be able to prevent conspiracies).
Except SSJ's aren't going to be doing shit against the Enemy. Not sure if the entire population of the Exiles going FPSSJ and donating everything to a Spirit Bomb would be enough.
I almost definitely don't think a Spirit Bomb with energy donated from 300,000 FPSSJes would be enough, because that'd really be too easy. The problem is that as long as we have the current system, we're limited to at most 6 relevant fighers, even when/if we find a way to achieve SSJ2 without the Enemy noticing. In practice, given that we can't give the Scions/Lords/Ladies epiphanies on demand, we'd be limited to even less.
If there's one thing Dandeer's taught us, it's that sorcerors can do really freaking impressively powerful things without anyone noticing. I wouldn't bet on sorcerors NOT being able to secretly construct wards capable of hiding FPSS-level powers, at least on the scale of a small training chamber. The Hall is far, far larger than that, after all.
Well, Dandelor couldn't, at least, I think. and even if being an SSJ is legal, we could still make it illegal to train as one anywhere but the hall, and then still throw people in jail if they construct one.
Letting the heads of each individual house transform, and no one else, might work.
I think that'd be a terrible idea, actually. What we eventually want is to make some kind of centralized state, one that has all Seers and Sorcerers working directly for it as part of government agencies rather than having them be decentralized loosely associated groups, and I don't think the Clan heads want that at all, because power to the central government will be taken from the Clans.

As far as I remember, most attempts to centralize the state involved rendering powerful nobles irrelevant, so giving our main potential political obstacles more power probably isn't a good idea.
EDIT: Just to be clear, I'm not saying Mitsuba is any better as a fighter than any of the other top-tier Cap Circuit contenders; the only reason she's that good is because, well, plot necessitated that she be a Cap Circuit contender.
I don't think Mitsuba is any better than the Lords, no, but I think the old lady (Bulma, I think) who faced Cynthia in the semi-finals was (pretty sure she only lost since she was busy giving her opponent advice, and she was only at half the maximum allowed power level too).
 
Not really. Pretty much all Saiyans have the capability to do so. It's not hard.
The stronger they are, the easier it is. There's a difference between being able to accidentally destroy the world with one one thousandth of your power, and being able to do it with one one hundredth thousand of your power.

An interesting perspective, but not what I agree with it. It's mentioned that Lord Vegeta and Lord Goku are viewed as the "paragons" of Vegeta and Goku Style, suggesting they may be the best/most skilled practitioners of those styles, and we know that they are/were either equal, or close enough that a fight between them wasn't a certainty.

By all indications, considering he's a Master of multiple styles, Yammar is really skilled fighter. And I wouldn't call her performance underwhelming: she had Yammar on the backfoot until he managed to get in close. And considering that, according to the History section on the front page, she and Yammar managed to subdue Vegeta and Berra, I would definitely say that they're better.

So here's my guess:
Yammar > Apra > Jaffur > Berra > Vegeta (due to the Sealing) >>> Kakara

With all the ones above Kakara being at least the equal of any top-tier tournament fighter.
I'm a bit unsure about things between Berra and Vegeta. And one important point to remember in the Sundering is that it's very unlikely that Berra and Vegeta actually squared off for an extended fight against their mother and father, respectively. I'm not at all confident that Apra is a better fighter than Berra, given that Berra actually has an outstanding reputation as a fighter and master of Goku Style.

Apra was able to keep Yammar tied up in combat by keeping the range open, and should be acknowledged for this. I still suspect that she's just not the master of warfare that Yammar is, not least because Yammar has a lot more trauma driving him to train and master as many combat skills as possible. Apra may well have, at some point in her life, hit "meh, good enough" and stopped significantly improving.

It really is very hard to place Lord Vegeta. We know he could fight Berra on comparable terms, but that doesn't mean he was equally skilled.

Furthermore, we know that Yammar ganged up on Jaffur with Lord Vegeta, and was still unable to defeat Jaffur without Vegeta getting knocked out. This suggests that he doesn't have such a great margin of tactical superiority as all that. I mean, he beat Apra by profiting from a distraction, but he beat Jaffur by having a whole 'nother fighter handy.

Hmm. Naively, I would expect the royals to get absolutely styled on by any professional saiyan fighter, given equal power levels. Yammar is strong and skilled, but he trains between his other duties; certainly, the time he spent ruling clan vegeta was time spent away from combat. Add in the fact that the pool of non SSjs>>>>royals and that the non royals do their training to fight people on equal power level...
Based on the way Jaffur was described at quest start, I'm pretty sure Jaffur was a match for regular saiyan Cap Circuit contenders. Like, if he'd entered a tournament he could have won it, and would at least have been a credible contender.

I don't think Mitsuba is any better than the Lords, no, but I think the old lady (Bulma, I think) who faced Cynthia in the semi-finals was (pretty sure she only lost since she was busy giving her opponent advice, and she was only at half the maximum allowed power level too).
One fifth.

I'm pretty sure Bulma Kane could wipe the walls with any of the royals at equal power levels, it's just that she's gotten so old and decrepit acquiring her Saiyan Grandma powers that she appears to no longer have a high enough power level to be relevant in battles anywhere near the saiyan power limit. Note that in her prime, and probably for a while after her prime, she was far and away the pre-eminent tournament fighter, winning sixteen times.

It's just that, well, she won all sixteen of those tournament titles at some point between, oh, twenty to seventy years ago. She was to saiyan sparring what the Williams sisters are to tennis, or something.

But now she is to saiyan sparring what, say, a more helpful version of Old Toph is to the setting of Avatar: she can show up and be incredibly awesome for like three minutes, then she throws out her back and has to stop. :(
 
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3) With thousands or even tens or hundreds of thousands of super-saiyans, the odds of one of them ascending to the second level, spontaneously or by intent, would be greatly increased. Then the Enemy shows up, planet-devouring magics or what have you fall, everyone dies.

The moment someone reaches ssj2 is the moment we go all in. It would be hard, but it's not a sure defeat.

Notably, I don't think he ever attained Super Saiyan Three in canon as far as I know, but he DID manage to keep up, attain godhood in Super, and generally remain effective, which may have been an example of his learning his lesson about a mastered lower form being better than a flashy, power-hungry transformed form.
In this system it might make sense for ssj2 to not have a power level cap (or to have it VERY HIGH), and have ssj3 as a multiplier to your ssj2 power in exchange for endurance, but NOT a new power level cap. Otherwise Vegeta keeping up with Goku when they're both ssj2 doesn't make much sense. Also Vegeta ssj2 vs Beerus being as strong or stronger than then ssj3 Goku.

Letting the heads of each individual house transform, and no one else, might work.

We might also be able to create a "royal guard" of designated super-saiyans whose personal loyalty is exemplary, whose fighting skill and valor are beyond question, and whose number is fixed and small. I nominate Tabe Stauber as head of the organization.
These are ideas i like. We could scout for them in the various tournaments, and if their loyalty is verified they can be considered.

Tabe would be perfect for it. Strong, loyal and not too ambitious.
No, but you can have small groups of people feud among themselves and blow holes in continents as collateral damage. You can have quite sizeable conspiracies develop in secret, which then strike in a coordinated fashion. You can have, in general, disruption.

Case in point, they had to masquerade the Berra vs Vegeta fight as a METEOR STRIKE!
Since it's seeming more and more likely we're going to come up with our own fighting style, anyone got loose themes/overall ideas? I'm think a focus on redirecting opponents attacks to fit with the pacifist theme.
focus on combat precognition, perfect multiform and non-lethal takedown (maybe with that ki sealing things seers can do). Also Spirit Saiyan (possibly being able to charge it in combat as elite+talent) and "IT". Maybe a secondary focus on unorthodox moves.
(i love oddball :p )

I think that'd be a terrible idea, actually. What we eventually want is to make some kind of centralized state, one that has all Seers and Sorcerers working directly for it as part of government agencies rather than having them be decentralized loosely associated groups, and I don't think the Clan heads want that at all, because power to the central government will be taken from the Clans.

As far as I remember, most attempts to centralize the state involved rendering powerful nobles irrelevant, so giving our main potential political obstacles more power probably isn't a good idea.

Thinking about it, Saiyans are not really suited to a normal democracy, and absolute monarchy is simply too inefficient.

We might want to go with some type of Olygarchy, with Lord/Lady Goku Vegeta as executive leaders and a council of all other lords as legislative power.

In that situation FPSSJ for all heads of houses (+ eventually that royal guard idea) might work.

I'm pretty sure Bulma Kane could wipe the walls with any of the royals at equal power levels, it's just that she's gotten so old and decrepit acquiring her Saiyan Grandma powers that she appears to no longer have a high enough power level to be relevant in battles anywhere near the saiyan power limit. Note that in her prime, and probably for a while after her prime, she was far and away the pre-eminent tournament fighter, winning sixteen times. She is to saiyan sparring what the Williams sisters are to tennis, or something.
new project: seal her old age, have her become super saiyan. SHE can be our royal guard captain!
(if she's still alive...)
 
Thinking about it, Saiyans are not really suited to a normal democracy, and absolute monarchy is simply too inefficient.
I still don't really see why Saiyans wouldn't be suited for democracy. Sure, they like fighting and violence, but that just makes them harder to govern with any system of government.

If anything an FPSSJ-oligarchy (based on clan structures) seems like it would be the worst form of government, given house heads would have no particular reason to listen to the monarch if they have the same power level (and the monarch has no army of Super Saiyans). Even if you try to bribe them with legislative powers, factions that are on the losing end politically could end up restarting the clan wars that were raging before Garla unified the Saiyans, thus completely destroying Exile society.

If we want to have any kind of Super Saiyans other than the monarchs, they definitely shouldn't be in the hands of the house heads but rather a centralized Saiyan government (personally I still think some sort of constitutional monarchy would be the best option).
 
I still don't really see why Saiyans wouldn't be suited for democracy. Sure, they like fighting and violence, but that just makes them harder to govern with any system of government.
mostly because democracy is probably the system with the weakest and less stable (in this situation) central power, and saiyans need a strong leader to follow.

If anything an FPSSJ-oligarchy (based on clan structures) seems like it would be the worst form of government, given house heads would have no particular reason to listen to the monarch if they have the same power level (and the monarch has no army of Super Saiyans). Even if you try to bribe them with legislative powers, factions that are on the losing end politically could end up restarting the clan wars that were raging before Garla unified the Saiyans, thus completely destroying Exile society.
if they're the majority, they don't need a civil war. If they're a minority, they're at a disadvantage in a war anyway.
It would depend on how many heads of houses we'd want involved though.
If we want to have any kind of Super Saiyans other than the monarchs, they definitely shouldn't be in the hands of the house heads but rather a centralized Saiyan government (personally I still think some sort of constitutional monarchy would be the best option).
constitutional monarchy could work as long as we leave strong executive powers to the Lord/Lady Goku/Vegeta (or possibly the single house that could result for an hypothetical marriage between Jaffur and Kakara).

Still, we need more super saiyans, and a loyal Royal guard is a good idea. We just need to find a good way to implement it (and to propose it to Berra if we're doing it before becoming the Lady)
 
Yeah, but I think currently Exile culture is toxic partially because society is held together by the fact that the monarchs essentially rule by virtue of their might.
Not really. Honestly, that might be the least toxic part.
Well, the point is that we'd reform the state so that we get an actual army, police force and civil service so we actually end up with a proper government. A thousand FPJSSes wouldn't be a threat if we had 10,000 directly on call and 290'000 were otherwise loyal.

As for collateral damage, 300'000 Super Saiyans (FPSSJ or not) would likely give us enough combined power to make some pretty powerful wards on Garenhuld to prevent collateral damage.
Yeah.... no. I don't see that working. At all.
I still don't really see why Saiyans wouldn't be suited for democracy. Sure, they like fighting and violence, but that just makes them harder to govern with any system of government.

If anything an FPSSJ-oligarchy (based on clan structures) seems like it would be the worst form of government, given house heads would have no particular reason to listen to the monarch if they have the same power level (and the monarch has no army of Super Saiyans). Even if you try to bribe them with legislative powers, factions that are on the losing end politically could end up restarting the clan wars that were raging before Garla unified the Saiyans, thus completely destroying Exile society.

If we want to have any kind of Super Saiyans other than the monarchs, they definitely shouldn't be in the hands of the house heads but rather a centralized Saiyan government (personally I still think some sort of constitutional monarchy would be the best option).
if they're the majority, they don't need a civil war. If they're a minority, they're at a disadvantage in a war anyway.
It would depend on how many heads of houses we'd want involved though.

constitutional monarchy could work as long as we leave strong executive powers to the Lord/Lady Goku/Vegeta (or possibly the single house that could result for an hypothetical marriage between Jaffur and Kakara).

Still, we need more super saiyans, and a loyal Royal guard is a good idea. We just need to find a good way to implement it (and to propose it to Berra if we're doing it before becoming the Lady)
Personally, the only case the House Heads are getting SSJ is if the Lords are SSJ2 or higher.
A FPSSJ2 is somewhere in the 18.75 to 22.5 billion range, or 16.67 to 20 times more then a FPSSJ.

Less then the 75 times stronger of a FPSSJ to a standard saiyan, but with a smaller number of them they're more manageable. Though we'd have to revise the House system a bit.
 
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Yeah.... no. I don't see that working. At all.
I agree that we currently can't just legalize turning into a Super Saiyan without completely destabilizing society, but I don't think it's impossible to create a system of government that can handle everyone being equally powerful, especially if we get as many possible Seers and Sorcerers to work for said government.
 
I agree that we currently can't just legalize turning into a Super Saiyan without completely destabilizing society, but I don't think it's impossible to create a system of government that can handle everyone being equally powerful, especially if we get as many possible Seers and Sorcerers to work for said government.
I'm doubtful for humans managing it beyond the small scale for long periods of time, and we're fundamentally social creatures with group/herd instincts with comparatively minimal variation.
 
If we're considering creating a more formal military/police force, then we might consider limiting who's allowed access to the Oozaru form to it? (Or again, and I appreciate I may be starting to sound like a broken record here but it's relevant, if we do manage to combine Oozaru+Saiyan then that would be ideal for this - it would put a regular Exile at a cap of 45 million, which is enough to be overwhelming in a fight against someone capped at 15/30 but not enough to threaten an FPSSJ.)
 
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There is the slight issue that we have seen a period of war between SS before Garla. Before considering the idea you should probably consider what has meaningfully changed since then on a cultural level.
 
Maybe we could make it illegal to teach the Oozaru form to anyone not a member of the police? It would avoid the problem of what to do with people who know the form already, and within a few generations the only people with access to the form would be members of the police, or retired of the same.
 
There is the slight issue that we have seen a period of war between SS before Garla. Before considering the idea you should probably consider what has meaningfully changed since then on a cultural level.
According to the History section, the main cause of the fighting was that there was little cultural and societal unity between the Saiyans, since they hadn't really kept much contact with each other, and there was thus great cultural, political and ideological differences between the Houses (and likely plenty of plain old power-hungriness as well).

I agree that those factors are still mostly present, particularly in Clan Goku (Clan Vegeta might be more culturally and politically unified), but the reason for that is that it doesn't seem that Lady Garla designed a strong central government but merely a way to stop the fighting (again, Clan Vegeta might be different). Houses still have very different political beliefs as well as different cultures (some Houses don't really like the Masquerade, for example), and the House Head still seems to be the main authority figure for most Saiyans in their day-to-day life, whose decisions can pretty much only be challenged by going all the way up to the monarch (which probably rarely happens).

In order to properly unify the Saiyans, we really need some kind of structure other than the clans, at the very least starting with government-appointed judges and other officials taking over some of the House Heads' functions (which is part of the reason I want some kind of constitutional monarchy, since I doubt the House Heads will voluntarily hand over those powers, and I'd rather try to ally with republican forces than go full tyrant).
Maybe we could make it illegal to teach the Oozaru form to anyone not a member of the police? It would avoid the problem of what to do with people who know the form already, and within a few generations the only people with access to the form would be members of the police, or retired of the same.
I mean, if we want to create a police force, figuring out to teach Instant Transmission the way Goku was taught (no math) would really be far more useful than a stronger form, since it'd mean instand response time to calls for help.

Standard Oozaru form (not combined with base) doesn't really sound like it'd be all that useful for a police force, since criminals will easily be able to run away from an Oozaru.
 
I mean, if we want to create a police force, figuring out to teach Instant Transmission the way Goku was taught (no math) would really be far more useful than a stronger form, since it'd mean instand response time to calls for help.

Standard Oozaru form (not combined with base) doesn't really sound like it'd be all that useful for a police force, since criminals will easily be able to run away from an Oozaru.
There should be rapid-response squads knowing IT, but not every member necessarily needs to know it - they just need to be good enough at telepathy to call for help.

I'm not sure if non-Golden Oozaru has it's speed halved (and Jaffur theorised that endurance-training GO like we do to get FPSSJ would solve the speed issue.) If it does though, 30/2=15, so the Oozaru will be just as fast as a regular Saiyan, but overwhelmingly more strong.

Saiyans instinctively respect strength and defer to whoever's strongest - they will therefore be more likely to obey the commands of an Oozaru. It's also a matter of prestige. By linking getting stronger with loyal service intrinsically, it will help encourage said loyalty and service.
 
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