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Dragon Ball: After the End

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Simon_Jester said:
Point of order: That's not true.

At least two of these plans were STRONGLY discussed before the vote and the update in which we were KO'ed.

But precisely because Poptart doesn't want complex plans in their quests, and had been sticking to a paradigm of "vote for a simple action, carry it out, vote on next simple action" for the past several updates, you know what we did?

We stripped out all the complicated stuff about what to do after grabbing Dandeer, and narrowed it down to the one part of the plan we could all agree on- grab Dandeer. Because Poptart assured us there'd be a second vote on what to do after grabbing Dandeer.

This then did not happen, because Poptart ran the numbers after the vote and figured "you're screwed no matter what you do, no point holding a vote on what you do after you grab Dandeer, so let's just cut to the chase."

...

So basically, the reason "these great plans didn't win before we were KO'ed" isn't that people weren't talking or thinking about them. It's that they explicitly deferred discussion of such plans until the next vote, because that was the paradigm we were in, where we were supposed to do that. Then, well, what I just said happened.

Now, I understand why Poptart just fast-forwarded to the part where we lost, instead of holding a vote that (as far as they were concerned) would predictably lead to us losing no matter what we decided to try. I'm not making accusations about that.

But it isn't accurate or fair to say that we "didn't think of" or "wouldn't have tried" these various plans for what to do after grabbing Dandeer. We explicitly discussed such plans, and then resolved to table them in favor of sticking to a short-simple plan, with the expectation of carrying it out and then deciding what to do next.
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I'm not implying people didn't think of these plans. I may have misremembered how the votes went and I apologise if I implied that people weren't making plans. I still think it's fair that the qm did what they did. They rolled for what I presume to be all of the plans laid out and all of them failed. At some point I feel that would have just dragged on if we needed to vote for a thing where we would then be promptly knocked out like how the last update went. I want to keep the story going even if it goes in this direction while it seems you and others aren't interested in a game/story that goes down this way. It's a fair and valid view and we probably aren't going to change each other's mind here.
 
Simon_Jester said:
What I mean is that rapidly changing spatial orientation is apt to cause problems. I'm sure Kakara can cope with fighting upside-down, but whether she can cope with going from being upside down to on her left side to on her right side to right side up to leaning forward at a fifty degree angle to leaning back all in the space of a few seconds... less certain.
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Oh, you mean if we get in a spin-off with the enemy. There's two additional factors to consider there:
  1. Kakara will have practised spinning and the enemy will not.
  2. They won't always be spinning to "match" us.
In either scenario, the enemy will always be more penalised than we are, which in a zero-sum game means it's an advantage for us.

@PoptartProdigy how viable is this idea for a Hand-To-Hand skill? Quoting myself to make it easy:
Deathbybunnies said:
You know, flying isn't really used to its full potential. We should practice fighting upside-down relative to our opponent - they'd have no idea how to handle that (beyond flipping upside down, in which case they're wasting time or we're both constantly spinning, which is its own reward) and we would, having practised it before.
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...Theoretically, could the wards handle a Kakara-Shade in SSJ2? Or can Kakara-Shade not go super saiyan?

Also, do we have any way to hide our tail as a shade?
 
Simon_Jester said:
The big obstacle to this is that people's sense of proprioception and spatial orientation can only take so much abuse. We have a strong, lingering fondness for a stable definition of the word 'up.'
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So...it'd be an Oddball maneuver? I have no idea how we could get anyone in the thread to support that.

Cariyaga said:
...Theoretically, could the wards handle a Kakara-Shade in SSJ2? Or can Kakara-Shade not go super saiyan?

Also, do we have any way to hide our tail as a shade?
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You can't unlock new transformations as a shade, so we'd have to pop SSJ2 as a real person (and thus, the wards) before we could go SSJ2 as a shade. I believe Kakara-shade can do anything she can do while not a shade, just at a grossly reduced PL.
 
PoptartProdigy said:
Shades are a twentieth of their normal power level. There are no action restrictions as a shade that should prevent you donning your Masque.
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I'm having trouble finding numbers on the various forms; to my knoweldge, the base power level of SSJ2 is twice the highest PL of SS1, right? (To whit: She would in fact be able to go SSJ2 in shade form within the wards)
 
Terrabrand said:
I'm writing it off as some weird meme based Ender's Game joke that I wouldn't find funny if I knew the reference, personally.

I suppose I could be mistaken, but pattern recognition suggests that's what I am looking at.
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While it is a running joke in Enders game, it's also potentially relevant. Most of Enders game focuses on a zero-gravity training room for combat strategists. While most armies kept the assumption of a top-down orientation even in the absence of gravity, Ender oriented his army so that the Enemies gate, the objective to capture, was down, up was their own gate, etc. This resulted in his army attacking from an orientation that severely confused his enemy, allowing his army to gain a critical advantage in fights.

As such, orienting in 3D space so that the enemies Ki signature was the frame of reference as opposed to the planet could help in keeping our enemies disoriented.
 
PoptartProdigy said:
More a thing for styles.
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Dang, I was pretty stoked I'd managed to think of a Skill that would fall under Hand-To-Hand. How does Tienshinhan-style significantly differ from Tienshinhan style-while-upside-down, except for the Hand-To-Hand parts? The ki attacks and maneuvering would all be roughly the same, right? Or would that be modelled as a mostly-complete style that needed more work on the Hand-To-Hand parts?

Well, I suppose it would affect how you could go into close combat and exit it...

Terrabrand said:
I'm writing it off as some weird meme based Ender's Game joke that I wouldn't find funny if I knew the reference, personally.

I suppose I could be mistaken, but pattern recognition suggests that's what I am looking at.
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Yes, "The enemy's gate is down" is a quote from Ender's Game, where the protagonist revolutionises the mock-battle system that takes place in a zero-gravity environment by having his team redefine how they consider the battlefield - there's no point in sticking to conventional spatial thinking, you're better off pointing your legs towards the enemy to give less of a target, etc.

KaintukeeBob said:
You can't unlock new transformations as a shade, so we'd have to pop SSJ2 as a real person (and thus, the wards) before we could go SSJ2 as a shade. I believe Kakara-shade can do anything she can do while not a shade, just at a grossly reduced PL.
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I think you specifically can't unlock new transformations as a shade specifically due to the reduced Power Level, as transformations usually have PL requirements. If we discovered a new transformation with no PL requirement or a PL requirement of 5% or less than Kakara's cap, we would probably be able to unlock it.
 
PoptartProdigy said:
More a thing for styles.
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that's something we'll have to add to our future "Spinning Seer Style"

Involved techniques: flying, combat precognition, ki sense, Instant transmission, Hand-to-Hand [Dueling], Kamehameha, Genkidama (Spirit Saiyan), Solar Flare, Non lethal takedown. Minor bonus to unconventional tactics (like the monkey ball)

Penalized technique: Hand-to-Hand [Team Fighting], Hand-to-Hand [Crowd Fighting], Combat on the ground, Ki Projection [All Save explicitly Involved Techniques, doubled for attacks likely to be lethal],fighting against enemy not perceivable by ki sense (androids or god ki users for example)

just an idea, there are probably too many involved techniques and not enough penalized ones. I might actually try to write something more coherent one of these days, with a bit of fluff thrown in.
 
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Cariyaga said:
I'm having trouble finding numbers on the various forms; to my knoweldge, the base power level of SSJ2 is twice the highest PL of SS1, right? (To whit: She would in fact be able to go SSJ2 in shade form within the wards)
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KDK, to borrow from Eaglejarl. ;)

OOC, my power level model is ripped from the fanfic Bringer of Death, wherein SSJ2's mechanical effect on initial acquisition is doubling the SSJ boost of 750 million.
Deathbybunnies said:
Dang, I was pretty stoked I'd managed to think of a Skill that would fall under Hand-To-Hand. How does Tienshinhan-style significantly differ from Tienshinhan style-while-upside-down, except for the Hand-To-Hand parts? The ki attacks and maneuvering would all be roughly the same, right? Or would that be modelled as a mostly-complete style that needed more work on the Hand-To-Hand parts?

Well, I suppose it would affect how you could go into close combat and exit it...
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What you were describing was Tenshinhan style while rapidly spinning. Being upside-down does not, on its own, materially change anything when one can fly.
 
PoptartProdigy said:
What you were describing was Tenshinhan style while rapidly spinning. Being upside-down does not, on its own, materially change anything when one can fly.
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Oh goodness no, that was just a possibility brought up by Kakara wanting to be upside-down relative to her foe, and an enemy not wanting to be so - they'd both spin to try and get to where they want to be.

No, I do just mean upside-down relative to the enemy. Surely that would change how Hand-To-Hand clashes happened, if each side only had experience fighting foes the same-way-up, as they do in the anime? Fighting with fists and feet at roughly equivalent heights and ready to block as they'd practised to would be different to fighting when your opponent has rendered a great deal of your experience with regards to how to block incoming blows incorrect.

Or do Hand-To-Hand clashes in this quest regularly happen with your foe at oblique angles? I admit I'm basing this entirely off of the anime and manga, where two fighters punching each other will be the same way up every time.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
Dang, I was pretty stoked I'd managed to think of a Skill that would fall under Hand-To-Hand. How does Tienshinhan-style significantly differ from Tienshinhan style-while-upside-down, except for the Hand-To-Hand parts? The ki attacks and maneuvering would all be roughly the same, right? Or would that be modelled as a mostly-complete style that needed more work on the Hand-To-Hand parts?

Well, I suppose it would affect how you could go into close combat and exit it...


Yes, "The enemy's gate is down" is a quote from Ender's Game, where the protagonist revolutionises the mock-battle system that takes place in a zero-gravity environment by having his team redefine how they consider the battlefield - there's no point in sticking to conventional spatial thinking, you're better off pointing your legs towards the enemy to give less of a target, etc.


I think you specifically can't unlock new transformations as a shade specifically due to the reduced Power Level, as transformations usually have PL requirements. If we discovered a new transformation with no PL requirement or a PL requirement of 5% or less than Kakara's cap, we would probably be able to unlock it.
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I am not sure it is a power level requirement that stops you unlocking it as a shade. In the manga it was explicitly stated by the narrator that Goku was strong enough to unlock super saiyan by the time he arrived to Namek, when his power level was 90,000. Since a shade has a twentieth of your power level and max base before super saiyan one is 15 million then you could theoretically have 750,000 power level as a shade and thus meet the power level requirements to transform into super saiyan for the first time.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
Oh goodness no, that was just a possibility brought up by Kakara wanting to be upside-down relative to her foe, and an enemy not wanting to be so - they'd both spin to try and get to where they want to be.

No, I do just mean upside-down relative to the enemy. Surely that would change how Hand-To-Hand clashes happened, if each side only had experience fighting foes the same-way-up, as they do in the anime? Fighting with fists and feet at roughly equivalent heights and ready to block as they'd practised to would be different to fighting when your opponent has rendered a great deal of your experience with regards to how to block incoming blows incorrect.

Or do Hand-To-Hand clashes in this quest regularly happen with your foe at oblique angles? I admit I'm basing this entirely off of the anime and manga, where two fighters punching each other will be the same way up every time.
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I mean, in theory it would change things, but I don't have much interest in modelling fighters' spacial orientations.
 
Cariyaga said:
I feel like there's gotta be a trap there. You wouldn't just give away information :p
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Well, we have no idea what the upper bound of SSJ2 is in this quest. I think I looked at BOD once, and it doesn't have a number for the SSJ2 cap, assuming one exists. I'm not sure it's ever actually found in canon before they drop it in favour of SSG etc., though canon might give an idea of where it roughly hits diminishing returns?
 
Deathbybunnies said:
Well, we have no idea what the upper bound of SSJ2 is in this quest. I think I looked at BOD once, and it doesn't have a number for the SSJ2 cap, assuming one exists. I'm not sure it's ever actually found in canon before they drop it in favour of SSG etc., though canon might give an idea of where it roughly hits diminishing returns?
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[RP SPOILERS REDACTED]
 
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