Bakkasama
There is always a greater fool
- Location
- Buenos Aires, Argentina
- Pronouns
- He/his
I don't recall that ever been mentioned in the series. If you could point me where...
Dragon Ball: After the End
- Location
- Australia
I remember it was mentioned somewhere, just not where specifically. The wiki seems to agree with me and Super Android 13 supports the idea as Goku only went Super Saiyan after he'd formed the Spirit Bomb (his heart is impure with rage when in Super Saiyan).
Compliant Omake: Dossiers From the Desk of Emperor Frigid, Part 1
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
Dossiers from the Desk of Emperor Frigid
Pt 1
Pt 1
17 & 18
Age: Unknown, At least 150
Species: Homo Sapiens, Augmented
Sex: Male & Female Respectively
Gender: Male & Female Respectively
Battle Power Level: Unknown, Estimated 1.125 Billion and 1.13 Billion Respectively
Affiliation: Starries
Description:
17 is a black haired male of slightly below average height. 18 is a blond haired female of slightly below average height. They are siblings.
The first records that can be reliably found of 17 & 18 are an attack on a slaver ring in the Zelpak system in Age 1007. After that the record thins until Age 1062 when they are recorded as operating as mercenary bodyguards for President Zimpali of the Zamj Federation. See attached file (17&18 Operational History) for a full list of their recorded occupations up until their present contract with the Starries.
Beyond adhering to a certain professional and moral standards in their mission performance and selection (See Attached File "In Depth Psych Analysis of 17&18), they do not appear to have any discernible political stance. Attempting to hire them out of a contract they are engaged in is futile.
17 & 18 are uniquely suited to stealth missions because their Battle Power Level is not detectable by scouters. They show up as having a BPL of 0 no matter what they do (Actually it is equal to background BPL of a biosphere). Analysis of their statements indicates this is because of their cybernetic enhancements. Their estimated BPLs come from analysis of their combats with various other champions, most notably Lord Frozen, Lord Coolant, and Emperor Frigid.
Their cybernetic enhancements also grant them several other benefits that their species does not share. They do not require oxygen as is normal for their species, and are immune to all chemical weaponry known to have been used against them. They do not age, but do periodically require maintenance. Unfortunately they know how to maintain each other and thus attempts to acquire information on their cybernetic enhancements by inserting a spy into that position have been fruitless.
Standard operating procedure regarding interacting with Champions of known power level apply:
Absent orders otherwise, confront if you are stronger and feel you can win, call in backup if you aren't. If no backup of sufficient power is available then attempt to complete all objectives that can plausibly be completed in the face of the Champion's interference, and then withdraw. Garrisons and other troops in defensive roles should attempt to delay the Champion as long as possible, or prevent them from achieving their objectives without direct confrontation if those are known.
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- Location
- Australia
Aside from the picture (my personal preference would be anima/manga style), pretty good.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
*See's canon threadmark. See's he still only has 3 cookies in the jar. Lights @PoptartProdigy signal.*
Most of them illustrate the point that the height of grappling prowess in Dragonballverse is, "HUGZ!!!", and even that is opportunistic rather than systematically mastered. Nor are there generally effective precautions or counters developed, even by the character who doesn't have bones and can rip off and regrow limbs at will.
It appears as if the fighters of the franchise would be utterly helpless in the face of the legendary lost technique, "half nelson."
She seems to have the capacity to work up to it here, and Android 13 is the same movie which both shows that the energy can not only be collected, but internalized and used to fuel a Super-Saiyan while explicitly stating that the Super-Saiyan form isn't too inherently corrupting despite him displaying... well...
Pictured: "Pure"
Keep in mind that it would have had to have continued collecting after the transformation because it wasn't finished collecting at the time of the transformation, and the transformation certainly occurred before it was reformed and used in an even more intimate and apparently infuriating fashion.
Regarding the Buu example, that was described as vital lifeforce. As in, "organisms usually have more lifeforce whose loss will exhaust them, but this is the minimum amount you will die without." The clear implication was that the expendable amount which can be recovered from had already been collected, not that there was a qualitative difference in the nature of the energy which would have been further collected. Tien killed himself with his attack against Nappa but didn't do so other times using the same attack, so even if there are two types they are at the very least interchangeable for the purposes of his techniques.
As for immunity: whatever makes her feel better. Really, that's what it comes down to. I honestly don't care if she uses it to nuke orphanages. The important thing is that she has a fig leaf for her conscience to get around the pacifism hobbles. The spirit bomb is at the very least easier in that regard since it requires noble intent and gives the target at least a hypothetical save if she is mistaken.
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- Location
- Australia
The Spirit Bomb isn't shown to get any bigger after he goes Super Saiyan (moving as he does, yes, but not growing) and he starts audibly struggling as soon as he transforms into a Super Saiyan. The stuff he does after he turns Super Saiyan isn't forming the Spirit Bomb, it's manipulating it, which has been shown to be a possible action that can be taken by the impure of heart.
Ki is at times called lifeforce and that's what was taken from people to fuel the Spirit Bomb. Having so little of it to begin with and having it taken away is why they were so tired afterwards. Since they're out of ki/non-vital lifeforce, they have to switch to the other type of lifeforce - the one that Tien uses to fuel the Tri Beam - which they also have so little of and would kill them if they lose it. So yes, there are two types of lifeforce, it's just that one of them (non-vital lifeforce) is simply ki while the other (vital lifeforce) will kill a person if they run out of it.
This doesn't seem like it would work at all and is really stretching. It's also a blatant way to "get around" pacifism which to me is rather unpalatable. It gives us penalties to learning combat stuff, yes, but in my opinion that's something we just have to take in stride rather than find tricks to make them irrelevant. It's part and parcel of taking the hard but righteous path.
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The antagonist states that he hasn't gathered enough yet before the transformation, and Krillin says flat out that it means that he is pure even as a Super-Saiyan despite him making... that face. That's before the potential translation issues which may be confusing things. "Noble," "Righteous," or, "Selfless," seem much more appropriate descriptions of the prerequisites than purity in the English sense. Either way, the nine-year-old who started out too kind to keep up with martial expectations due to her kind nature and then became an avowed pacifist seems perfectly capable of achieving it.
Tien was completely exhausted and fueled his extremely powerful attack on Nappa with his very life, yet in other cases fueled it by only incurring completely recoverable damage. If there are two types, it's pretty clear that he can use either. Their being the same is still a more parsimonious explanation than it suddenly and inexplicably being able to draw on a fundamentally different source, however. Ultimately, being completely drained of ki will kill someone. Androids 19 and 20 made that clear.
It's not as if restricting oneself to the Spirit Bomb is a total nullification of the downsides of pacifism. There are plenty of challenges a GM can give where a less-than-total-evil opponent can't motivate the formation. It still requires the work to develop. There are still limitations such as draw time or a desire not to give away the system's position. It can still require the prerequisites whose attainment were not free. That a limitation has been put on the character doesn't mean that you're not allowed to be clever about it.
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- Location
- Australia
You're saying that the antagonist's claim that it's not done charging is proof that it can be charged in Super Saiyan, despite Goku not being in Super Saiyan while he's charging it and when 13 says it's not done charging? How does that make even an iota of sense?Krillin says that way before he makes that face and that was after waking up and seeing a Super Saiyan Goku with a Spirit Bomb. It's entirely reasonable to suggest he was mistaken and thought incorrectly that he formed the Spirit Bomb while he was Super Saiyan. It also proves that, at least as far as the characters know, the Spirit Bomb can only be formed by those pure of heart.
Considering her hatred is very literally maximum when it comes to Dandeer, I think it's safe to say that Kakara's heart is at least tainted with rage. Furthermore, simply being kind and a pacifist doesn't make one pure of heart. She could still have a tiny amount of evil despite that and considering Kami's thing, it's very likely that she would.
Maybe instead of using some of his vital lifeforce like the other times he used the Tri Beam, this time he completely on purpose used all of his vital lifeforce to kill Nappa. The only difference is the quantity of vital lifeforce he put into his attacks.
Never said it was.
And? What's your point?
If it were just any limitation you'd be right, but this is a limitation we chose to place on ourselves to encourage us to take the route of non-violence. That is its purpose. Circumventing this limitation for the purpose of allowing us to be better at violence goes against the point of the limitation. If we want to increase our capacity for violence, we should take it square on with the penalty in tow, otherwise it provides no disincentive for violence.
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Krillin says that way before he makes that face and that was after waking up and seeing a Super Saiyan Goku with a Spirit Bomb. It's entirely reasonable to suggest he was mistaken and thought incorrectly that he formed the Spirit Bomb while he was Super Saiyan. It also proves that, at least as far as the characters know, the Spirit Bomb can only be formed by those pure of heart.
Considering her hatred is very literally maximum when it comes to Dandeer, I think it's safe to say that Kakara's heart is at least tainted with rage. Furthermore, simply being kind and a pacifist doesn't make one pure of heart. She could still have a tiny amount of evil despite that and considering Kami's thing, it's very likely that she would.
Maybe instead of using some of his vital lifeforce like the other times he used the Tri Beams, this time he completely on purpose used all of his vital lifeforce to kill Nappa. The only difference is the quantity of vital lifeforce he put into his attacks.
Never said it was.
And? What's your point?
If it were just any limitation you'd be right, but this is a limitation we chose to place on ourselves to encourage us to take the route of non-violence. That is its purpose. Circumventing this limitation for the purpose of allowing us to be better at violence goes against the point of the limitation in the first place. If we want to increase our capacity for violence, we should take it square on with the penalty in tow, otherwise it provides no disincentive for violence.
If you're going to insist on spaghettifying this,
- If it isn't sufficient to be put to use, the user transforms, and then puts it to use, that suggests continued collection during and after the transformation.
- That is one interpretation. However, we still have the literal words of the person most familiar with the user and the only other person to ever wield the technique.
- -which suggests that she would be hampered in using it by her emotions when faced with Dandeer. Goku is capable of anger as well, but still capable of using the technique. There is a philosophical underpinning which suggests that the key is the state in the moment.
- You've still given us nothing to suggest that the vital lifeforce is somehow distinct from what was drawn earlier in any sense but quantity. The sheer exhaustion and real physiological effects displayed by everybody after the drawing suggest that a safety limit had been hit rather than a crossover into a fundamentally new source.
- -7. "This doesn't seem like it would work at all and is really stretching. It's also a blatant way to "get around" pacifism which to me is rather unpalatable. It gives us penalties to learning combat stuff, yes, but in my opinion that's something we just have to take in stride rather than find tricks to make them irrelevant. It's part and parcel of taking the hard but righteous path." Generic metagame complaint about munchkining. The fact is that the series itself has an outright divinely benevolent and harmonious technique manifesting the very will of existence and those being protected by it, which has with its own properties which can synergise with the approach. That an approach closes off one available avenue does not mean that anyone is or should be forbidden from exploiting ones which are not.
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- Location
- Australia
Could you reword this? It's difficult to make out what this is supposed to mean.
Simply being angry isn't enough to constitute a lack of purity. Rage and hate are related but ultimately different beasts. Besides that, Kakara's hatred remains even outside of occasions where they meet.
This too needs to be reworded. It's rather unclear what you're trying to say.
EDIT: What is "spaghettifying"?
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Bakkasama
There is always a greater fool
- Location
- Buenos Aires, Argentina
- Pronouns
- He/his
@Lailoken since I know close to nothing about grappling (and thus it seems like a reasonable assumption that you are more familiar with the subject) I feel I must ask: have you considered the implication of flight on the style? It feels like any technique that involves using leverage, pining onthe ground or even its presence to limit movement would be complicated, not to mention the one grabbed could fly into straight surfaces like Nappa did when Chiaotzu grabbed him or, if desperate, resort to an omnidirectional ki blast (or simply pointing palm or fingers toward their opponent since unlike traditional grappling they don't need to touch the grappler to counter attack).
- Location
- Australia
State of the Galaxy - 1155
It is Age 1155 and the galaxy is at war.
The Cold Empire continues its advance across the stars, steadily battering away at the defences of the planets that lay before it. Its armies are met with the staunch resilience of the worlds they aim to add to their realm, Namekian freedom pirates, and the Galactic Patrol, with mercenaries acting on both sides of the conflicts. The linchpin of the Cold Empire's power lies in the strength of their lords. Cultured from the cells of the dread tyrant Frieza, they crush resistance wherever they set foot. They are slowed only by the undying, untiring remnants of legendary Earth, the enigmatic androids the only roadblock in the face of their power.
In the galactic north-west, Saibamen and their evil Saibamasters plague the Zenicron Expanse, their entrance into the inner galaxy halted at the Kornic Passage by planet Tech-Tech's technology and Saiyan warriors. Tensions have been rising between Tech-Tech and the planets behind them as their de-facto wards grow complacent and take their ally's power for granted. Secretly there are talks of removing their armies from Tech-Tech under the belief that the Tech-Techs can and will keep the Saibamen at bay without their help.
In the south, the race that spawned King Cold and his sons Frieza and Cooler are laid siege to by a genocidal alliance of vengeful planets, their minds gone mad from the losses inflicted by the twisted mutants that rose from their race. Above-average though their race may be in power, against such numbers, things do not look good.
Various warlords vie for control of the Sargon sector in the north-east of the galaxy, the balance of power ever-shifting, the only certainty being the cycle of war, rebellion, consolidation, and then back to war. The increasing influence of the Galactic Patrol in this area is helping to stabilise the region, but at the cost of earning the attention and ire of the warlords yet to have been ejected from their seats of power. Rumours of a temporary alliance between the warlords to eject the Galactic Patrol have begun circulating.
Most ominously of all, planets in the far east have been disappearing randomly and without warning, all evidence of their existence seemingly vanishing without a trace. Only time will tell if this is some freak occurrence or the prelude to something great and terrible...
It is Age 1155 and the galaxy is at war.
The Cold Empire continues its advance across the stars, steadily battering away at the defences of the planets that lay before it. Its armies are met with the staunch resilience of the worlds they aim to add to their realm, Namekian freedom pirates, and the Galactic Patrol, with mercenaries acting on both sides of the conflicts. The linchpin of the Cold Empire's power lies in the strength of their lords. Cultured from the cells of the dread tyrant Frieza, they crush resistance wherever they set foot. They are slowed only by the undying, untiring remnants of legendary Earth, the enigmatic androids the only roadblock in the face of their power.
In the galactic north-west, Saibamen and their evil Saibamasters plague the Zenicron Expanse, their entrance into the inner galaxy halted at the Kornic Passage by planet Tech-Tech's technology and Saiyan warriors. Tensions have been rising between Tech-Tech and the planets behind them as their de-facto wards grow complacent and take their ally's power for granted. Secretly there are talks of removing their armies from Tech-Tech under the belief that the Tech-Techs can and will keep the Saibamen at bay without their help.
In the south, the race that spawned King Cold and his sons Frieza and Cooler are laid siege to by a genocidal alliance of vengeful planets, their minds gone mad from the losses inflicted by the twisted mutants that rose from their race. Above-average though their race may be in power, against such numbers, things do not look good.
Various warlords vie for control of the Sargon sector in the north-east of the galaxy, the balance of power ever-shifting, the only certainty being the cycle of war, rebellion, consolidation, and then back to war. The increasing influence of the Galactic Patrol in this area is helping to stabilise the region, but at the cost of earning the attention and ire of the warlords yet to have been ejected from their seats of power. Rumours of a temporary alliance between the warlords to eject the Galactic Patrol have begun circulating.
Most ominously of all, planets in the far east have been disappearing randomly and without warning, all evidence of their existence seemingly vanishing without a trace. Only time will tell if this is some freak occurrence or the prelude to something great and terrible...
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Did you miss a few words?
- Location
- Australia
Fixed. Thanks.
No it's not. Krillin, who's at least as evil as Kakara could touch it just fine. It's only dangerous to people with major amounts of "evil ki".
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- Location
- Somewhere I shouldn't be
Sounds like the galaxy needs a dose of yellow monkey.
Let's pacify it!
Let's pacify it!
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
Let's not be warmongers, please? At least wait until PoptartProdigy has declared Andres' latest omake canon or not.
- Location
- Somewhere I shouldn't be
Fine. We can stay all peaceful and stuff, we'll just send our husbando out to 'save' the galaxy.
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
I FIXED THE NESTING PROBLEM.
Or, more accurately, now know how it needs to be fixed. While it means I've let myself in for a laborious time turning every spoiler tag in the Character Sheets into nested tabs, I also know how to nest those prettily, so that's better. Long solution, but a pretty one.
I'm afraid that this one will be non-canon. Not that the galaxy isn't going to shit in general, nor that this isn't great -- I particularly loved how you described 17 and 18 -- but I've actually largely worked out how the galaxy at large is and what the major players are, and at least three of the factions you listed above have...rather violently ceased to be. To be replaced by new ones, of course, but that's the way of the world.
Or, more accurately, now know how it needs to be fixed. While it means I've let myself in for a laborious time turning every spoiler tag in the Character Sheets into nested tabs, I also know how to nest those prettily, so that's better. Long solution, but a pretty one.
I'm afraid that this one will be non-canon. Not that the galaxy isn't going to shit in general, nor that this isn't great -- I particularly loved how you described 17 and 18 -- but I've actually largely worked out how the galaxy at large is and what the major players are, and at least three of the factions you listed above have...rather violently ceased to be. To be replaced by new ones, of course, but that's the way of the world.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
The antagonist, who is informed by close, methodical study of Goku throughout his entire life, states that Goku has not yet collected enough energy to do the job. Goku, exhausted, beaten to within an inch of his life, then transforms and absorbs enough energy to do the job. The likely reason is that he continued growing the spirit bomb during and after the transformation, especially with Krillin's explicit comment on the matter.
-then she has some personal growth ahead of her. Nevertheless, at this point, she doesn't even hate Vegita, and is showing cracks regarding Dandree. That's if it is a factor when using it against anyone other than Dandree, which is far from certain given the philosophical elements suggesting a current state of mind and Cell's assertion that he could use the Spirit Bomb as well.
Short answer: "It isn't munchkining."
In many ways this is actually better. It means that the forces involved are going to come down to the skill and power of the participants instead of neutral gravity. Kakara is the most powerful force around, and she has a special affinity for agile flight. On top of that, with proper training she can make the most proficient use of those natural talents because her three wells mean that she can simultaneously bring to bear a perfectly synchronized great ape, a baseline, and a Super-Saiyan form, each with four arms, two legs, and a prehensile tail.
It's a zero-G wrestling contest, except it's three-on-one, the one has no idea what they're doing, each of the three has three extra limbs to work with (most Saiyans don't train their tails and therefore have to treat them as a liability rather than an asset), and each of the three has more skill in using more powerful and sophisticated omnidirectional maneuvering suits. Oh, yeah, they're also really good at teleporting. Imagine going hand-to-tentacle in space against a hive-mind of teleporting octopodes with integrated jetpacks.
If she does encounter somebody who outclasses her to the degree Nappa did, that's when she either spirit-pumps or backs off and calls down a spirit cluster bomb barrage until he's weak enough to take down with grappling.
Chi blasts are always a concern, but omnidirectional or restricted forms are either weak or very wasteful in comparison to the trained forms. The Goku style emphasizes combat at similar distances and even greater vulnerability, yet doesn't appear to be impractical.
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- Location
- Australia
I'm glad to know you liked it. Now I'm wondering which of those three factions are gone. Nameks, Galactic Patrol, and Frieza's race, I'm guessing?
You might not've read the context, or maybe you have and you simply misunderstood, but that's not what I meant. Anyone can hold and throw the Spirit Bomb just fine, but only the pure of heart can form it and be undamaged by it if it's thrown at them. Think of it like a special purity gun. You need to be pure of heart to build it, you need to be pure of heart to survive getting shot by it, but you can hold it and shoot it even if you're not pure of heart.
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
Any answer Poptart gives that isn't a dodge would be a huge spoiler.