Dragon Ball: After the End
Sir LagsAlot
Yandere Dice Magnet
- Location
- In the fridge
Do you want to take the chance that he won't go do that though? Especially when it costs us almost nothing to just tell Dandelor who were already in conversation with that the Senzus should grab Jaffur?
Wiadi
Uncompromising Radical Leftist
- Location
- Something Clever
- Pronouns
- She/Her
*sigh*
You have the solution literally in your hands, just put your hand around her neck. Why the hell is this even a question ?
And why the hell am i still reading this ... thing?
...even disregarding moral concerns (which Kakara won't do & neither should the voters), you realize that Dandeer has built a failsafe into her mind control spell on Berra which (as far as we know) was there just in case he ever turned against her, yes? Do you honestly think she won't have contingencies built in for the event of her own demise? At best we'll still be stuck in the same fight we're already in, and I wouldn't be shocked if things somehow got worse.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Honestly, if Berra's out of the fight one way or the other, we are almost certainly okay-ish.
Lord Vegeta is going to be in great pain from the loss of his tail- remember that his namesake wasn't exactly fully fighting fit after losing it to Yajirobe, either. Even Kakara, who spent literally a year brutalizing her tail night after night to train herself how to function in the face of that agony, was temporarily disabled when Dazarel cut it off. Temporarily, but still for a brief time.
Unless Lord Vegeta is vastly more capable of functioning through pain than we have any compelling reason to expect, he won't be able to do anything optimally effective in the next combat round. He might be a problem, even a serious one, but not so great that we couldn't spare moments to try and stun Berra.
My real concern is that stunning Berra quickly will prove impossible due to oozaru durability, that he'll just be lurching around roaring and screaming in agony while we bounce flying kicks off his gigantic forehead or something.
Are you suggesting to kill her, or choke her out?*sigh*
You have the solution literally in your hands, just put your hand around her neck. Why the hell is this even a question ?
And why the hell am i still reading this ... thing?
If the former, well... we can go into this in more detail.
If the latter, that takes considerable time and wouldn't necessarily end the fight.
Also, this. I honestly think that the only way we can get anything close to a Good End out of this fight is to have Dandelor laboriously go over Dandeer's contingency magics like a bomb defusal technician before we do anything to her beyond temporarily incapacitating her.
Wiadi
Uncompromising Radical Leftist
- Location
- Something Clever
- Pronouns
- She/Her
My main concern is that if unengaged, he might just fire off a wide-angle blast in the general direction of the Senzus, which wouldn't need to be optimally effective to cause massive problems for them.
At the same time, I am worried about trying the Dandeer-flail trick against him, because his significantly more brutal mindset may lead him to (for example) try some sort of "shoot through the hostage" gambit. Though I suppose if we can take him out before he powers up fully, that wouldn't be as dangerous. @PoptartProdigy to clarify, if we go for "-[ ] Vegeta is getting back into base form, which puts him back in the fight. Wielding Dandeer against him like you did to Dad should work just as well, and you can't leave him unaddressed," will Kakara simply try to use Dandeer to stall Lord Vegeta or will she try & disable him directly?
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
The reason the "don't do it," version emphasizes a quick takedown is because in that version, it had better be quick.
Non-canon, of course, but I like it! Bonus to supporting magical allies.
She'll use Dandeer to catch him off-balance, opening up opportunities for her to attack him directly.
Cadis
Proud Capoeria Angola Quintal Capoerista
- Location
- United States
wait, isn't Barra supposed to be a giant ape? The way you wrote the update doesn't seem to indicate that.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
@PoptartProdigy , I had a thought.
... Is Kakara not carrying senzu beans herself, and if not, why not? The Senzus themselves have, you have informed us, more of the things than they know what to do with. It would be considerably easier for Kakara to heal Jaffur, or for that matter herself if she suffers any serious injury, if she had some on her person. It would seem a reasonable precaution even given how well the conspiracy expected this phase of the plan to go.
AAAND thinking about votes. Choices I actually approve of are mock-voted with a 'k.'
Hm. I think I'm in the "do it" crowd. This situation is far too dangerous, we're extremely dependent on allies who are squishy now that Jaffur's been one-shotted by Berra. I'd be willing to relieve him of having to experience this pain if I thought we could, but I don't think we can without risking disaster (e.g. Dandelor getting blown up).
And on some karmic level, I can't help but feel like this is the physical price Berra pays, for his own mistakes. He is not a bad man or even a stupid man, but he's a man whose fallibility has cost many people dearly. In a kinder, simpler world, he would have done very well indeed, and maybe some day he'll rise to greater heights than we now know- but for now, he's the tragic hero of his own story, and this is his tragedy.
Now, that leaves several vote options.
[ k ] ...you need to even the numbers. Sorry, Dad. "Dandelor, do it."
-[ k ] Vegeta is getting back into base form, which puts him back in the fight. Wielding Dandeer against him like you did to Dad should work just as well, and you can't leave him unaddressed.
As noted, IF for any reason we don't want to wield Dandeer against Vegeta...
Well, simply dropping Dandeer and knocking Lord Vegeta out might be a better plan. Dandeer has just been tail-crunched and swung around through the air at speeds sufficient to Doppler her voice, which given how time compression works for saiyans and how much less durable she is, is probably at best the equivalent of surviving a car accident "without a scratch." She's almost certainly in no shape to act effectively or decisively, and even if she is, the Senzus are in a position to counter her because UNLIKE us, she can't move at super-saiyan speeds.
So I suggest possibly inferior write-in:
[ ] ...you need to even the numbers. Sorry, Dad. "Dandelor, do it."
-[ ] Release Dandeer. If you flash over to Vegeta now to take him down after he reverts to base, but before he goes to super saiyan, you may be able to knock him out of the fight.
Given Poptart's recent clarification that if we bring Dandeer with us, we should be able to use that to attack Lord Vegeta more directly to greater effect than would otherwise be possible. I'm a bit vague on how that works physically but if Poptart says it can, then we can, and my write-in may well be strictly inferior to the stock option. Wanted to mention it anyway.
Another, closely related write-in that is basically just a slight variant of the first one. The only difference is that we apologize to Berra in advance, which seems like a Kakara thing to do.
[ k ] ...you need to even the numbers. Say "Sorry, Dad." to your father, then telepathically say "Do it." to Dandelor.
-[ k ] Vegeta is getting back into base form, which puts him back in the fight. Wielding Dandeer against him like you did to Dad should work just as well, and you can't leave him unaddressed.
[This write-in can be adapted to any other priority after Dad is down]
[ ] ...you need to even the numbers. Sorry, Dad. "Dandelor, do it."
-[ ] Yammar is pressuring your grandmother badly right now. If you come in hard and fast, and use Dandeer like you just did against Dad, you can give Grandma an opening to take down Yammar before Vegeta gets back into this.
This is a risky strategy because, as noted, it leaves Vegeta unengaged. He could potentially blast the Senzus even in base form with far more power than any of them except maybe Dandelor can handle barring on-the-spot super-saiyan transformations. Or in a fit of madness he might blast Jaffur and kill him.
On the other hand, it means we can probably maneuver Yammar into catching a Shin Kikohofuckyourself from Grandma. AND we don't have to release Dandeer. High risk, high reward.
I'm against it.
[ ] ...you need to even the numbers. Sorry, Dad. "Dandelor, do it."
-[ ] Knock out Dandeer now.
We're pretty sure Dandeer isn't actually telepathically controlling her subverted royal defenders, so knocking her out won't stop the fight and won't stop Yammar and Lord Vegeta from trying to rescue/revive her. Since Yammar appears to have the upper hand over Apra and it's fairly likely that an intact-ish Lord Vegeta will be able to outfight us, that's a bad thing.
Dandeer groaning on the ground, debuffed by a combination of tail-crushing and constant telepathic screaming in her metaphysical ears, is probably going to have to be good enough for this round of actions. We note that it took Dandeer multiple rounds of casting time to prepare anything she expected to be really decisive, or she'd have gotten her first-worst shot off before we even reached her.
I'm against this plan.
[ k ] ...you need to even the numbers. Sorry, Dad. "Dandelor, do it."
-[ k ] The Senzus have a better shot at Jaffur now, but there are still three -- soon to be four -- super saiyans shooting up the place. Use Dandeer as a saiyan shield to cover you while you run to get Jaffur to the Senzus.
This plan has potential and I approve of it. It brings the numbers situation decisively into our favor, knocking out one opponent and healing one ally. Moreover, with Berra out of the picture we have ascendancy in the 'strong warrior' category because the competition for world's strongest fighter is firmly between Jaffur and Berra at this point. Even if Yammar overpowers Apra in this round (possible), we're still probably okay at this point.
It has occurred to me that we could probably drop Dandeer amid the Senzus, who could restrain her while Jaffur, Kakara, and Apra simply beat down Yammar and Lord Vegeta. I am very, very sure, sure as I am of almost NOTHING ELSE in this setting, that by now Jaffur's quite capable of handling Vegeta alone, given that Jaffur's had such a profoundly long time to focus on preparing to do so. And I'm pretty sure that Yammar won't be able to hold off the battling Tien-Style ladies of House Goku by himself.
At the same time, though, it's conceivable that dropping Dandeer off might allow one of the enemy super-saiyans to retrieve her and possibly kill a lot of the Senzus while he's at it. Keeping her with us, or even dropping her far away from everyone else on the field, would help I think. So while this write-in occurred to me, I don't think it's the best plan:
[] ...you need to even the numbers. Sorry, Dad. "Dandelor, do it."
-[] The Senzus have a better shot at Jaffur now, but there are still three -- soon to be four -- super saiyans shooting up the place. Use Dandeer as a saiyan shield to cover you while you run to get Jaffur to the Senzus.
-[] After you get Jaffur to the Senzus, drop Dandeer among them, where Dandelor and the others can restrain her.
While we're at it, here's a few 'stun Berra' options. I don't support these personally, mainly because I don't think we can physically knock out Berra with a couple of blows or blasts given how durable Golden Oozaru is. We'll risk leaving Vegeta unengaged for too long
[] ...you need to even the numbers. Sorry, Dad. "Dandelor, do it."
-[] Try to knock your father out quickly, to spare him further pain.
OR
[ ] ...you need to even the numbers. Say "Sorry, Dad." to your father, then telepathically say "Do it." to Dandelor.
-[ ] Try to knock your father out quickly, to spare him further pain.
... Is Kakara not carrying senzu beans herself, and if not, why not? The Senzus themselves have, you have informed us, more of the things than they know what to do with. It would be considerably easier for Kakara to heal Jaffur, or for that matter herself if she suffers any serious injury, if she had some on her person. It would seem a reasonable precaution even given how well the conspiracy expected this phase of the plan to go.
AAAND thinking about votes. Choices I actually approve of are mock-voted with a 'k.'
Hm. I think I'm in the "do it" crowd. This situation is far too dangerous, we're extremely dependent on allies who are squishy now that Jaffur's been one-shotted by Berra. I'd be willing to relieve him of having to experience this pain if I thought we could, but I don't think we can without risking disaster (e.g. Dandelor getting blown up).
And on some karmic level, I can't help but feel like this is the physical price Berra pays, for his own mistakes. He is not a bad man or even a stupid man, but he's a man whose fallibility has cost many people dearly. In a kinder, simpler world, he would have done very well indeed, and maybe some day he'll rise to greater heights than we now know- but for now, he's the tragic hero of his own story, and this is his tragedy.
Now, that leaves several vote options.
[ k ] ...you need to even the numbers. Sorry, Dad. "Dandelor, do it."
-[ k ] Vegeta is getting back into base form, which puts him back in the fight. Wielding Dandeer against him like you did to Dad should work just as well, and you can't leave him unaddressed.
As noted, IF for any reason we don't want to wield Dandeer against Vegeta...
Well, simply dropping Dandeer and knocking Lord Vegeta out might be a better plan. Dandeer has just been tail-crunched and swung around through the air at speeds sufficient to Doppler her voice, which given how time compression works for saiyans and how much less durable she is, is probably at best the equivalent of surviving a car accident "without a scratch." She's almost certainly in no shape to act effectively or decisively, and even if she is, the Senzus are in a position to counter her because UNLIKE us, she can't move at super-saiyan speeds.
So I suggest possibly inferior write-in:
[ ] ...you need to even the numbers. Sorry, Dad. "Dandelor, do it."
-[ ] Release Dandeer. If you flash over to Vegeta now to take him down after he reverts to base, but before he goes to super saiyan, you may be able to knock him out of the fight.
Given Poptart's recent clarification that if we bring Dandeer with us, we should be able to use that to attack Lord Vegeta more directly to greater effect than would otherwise be possible. I'm a bit vague on how that works physically but if Poptart says it can, then we can, and my write-in may well be strictly inferior to the stock option. Wanted to mention it anyway.
Another, closely related write-in that is basically just a slight variant of the first one. The only difference is that we apologize to Berra in advance, which seems like a Kakara thing to do.
[ k ] ...you need to even the numbers. Say "Sorry, Dad." to your father, then telepathically say "Do it." to Dandelor.
-[ k ] Vegeta is getting back into base form, which puts him back in the fight. Wielding Dandeer against him like you did to Dad should work just as well, and you can't leave him unaddressed.
[This write-in can be adapted to any other priority after Dad is down]
[ ] ...you need to even the numbers. Sorry, Dad. "Dandelor, do it."
-[ ] Yammar is pressuring your grandmother badly right now. If you come in hard and fast, and use Dandeer like you just did against Dad, you can give Grandma an opening to take down Yammar before Vegeta gets back into this.
This is a risky strategy because, as noted, it leaves Vegeta unengaged. He could potentially blast the Senzus even in base form with far more power than any of them except maybe Dandelor can handle barring on-the-spot super-saiyan transformations. Or in a fit of madness he might blast Jaffur and kill him.
On the other hand, it means we can probably maneuver Yammar into catching a Shin Kikohofuckyourself from Grandma. AND we don't have to release Dandeer. High risk, high reward.
I'm against it.
[ ] ...you need to even the numbers. Sorry, Dad. "Dandelor, do it."
-[ ] Knock out Dandeer now.
We're pretty sure Dandeer isn't actually telepathically controlling her subverted royal defenders, so knocking her out won't stop the fight and won't stop Yammar and Lord Vegeta from trying to rescue/revive her. Since Yammar appears to have the upper hand over Apra and it's fairly likely that an intact-ish Lord Vegeta will be able to outfight us, that's a bad thing.
Dandeer groaning on the ground, debuffed by a combination of tail-crushing and constant telepathic screaming in her metaphysical ears, is probably going to have to be good enough for this round of actions. We note that it took Dandeer multiple rounds of casting time to prepare anything she expected to be really decisive, or she'd have gotten her first-worst shot off before we even reached her.
I'm against this plan.
[ k ] ...you need to even the numbers. Sorry, Dad. "Dandelor, do it."
-[ k ] The Senzus have a better shot at Jaffur now, but there are still three -- soon to be four -- super saiyans shooting up the place. Use Dandeer as a saiyan shield to cover you while you run to get Jaffur to the Senzus.
This plan has potential and I approve of it. It brings the numbers situation decisively into our favor, knocking out one opponent and healing one ally. Moreover, with Berra out of the picture we have ascendancy in the 'strong warrior' category because the competition for world's strongest fighter is firmly between Jaffur and Berra at this point. Even if Yammar overpowers Apra in this round (possible), we're still probably okay at this point.
It has occurred to me that we could probably drop Dandeer amid the Senzus, who could restrain her while Jaffur, Kakara, and Apra simply beat down Yammar and Lord Vegeta. I am very, very sure, sure as I am of almost NOTHING ELSE in this setting, that by now Jaffur's quite capable of handling Vegeta alone, given that Jaffur's had such a profoundly long time to focus on preparing to do so. And I'm pretty sure that Yammar won't be able to hold off the battling Tien-Style ladies of House Goku by himself.
At the same time, though, it's conceivable that dropping Dandeer off might allow one of the enemy super-saiyans to retrieve her and possibly kill a lot of the Senzus while he's at it. Keeping her with us, or even dropping her far away from everyone else on the field, would help I think. So while this write-in occurred to me, I don't think it's the best plan:
[] ...you need to even the numbers. Sorry, Dad. "Dandelor, do it."
-[] The Senzus have a better shot at Jaffur now, but there are still three -- soon to be four -- super saiyans shooting up the place. Use Dandeer as a saiyan shield to cover you while you run to get Jaffur to the Senzus.
-[] After you get Jaffur to the Senzus, drop Dandeer among them, where Dandelor and the others can restrain her.
While we're at it, here's a few 'stun Berra' options. I don't support these personally, mainly because I don't think we can physically knock out Berra with a couple of blows or blasts given how durable Golden Oozaru is. We'll risk leaving Vegeta unengaged for too long
[] ...you need to even the numbers. Sorry, Dad. "Dandelor, do it."
-[] Try to knock your father out quickly, to spare him further pain.
OR
[ ] ...you need to even the numbers. Say "Sorry, Dad." to your father, then telepathically say "Do it." to Dandelor.
-[ ] Try to knock your father out quickly, to spare him further pain.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Actually that is another worry. What if the pain causes him to power up and destroy the hall wards?
WorthyAlchemist?
100% certifiably without-a-doubt mediocre
- Location
- That place...yeah that one
It doesn't matter whether he's brutal or not, his one purpose right now is keeping Dandeer safe. This can be done in several ways but in no universe is punching a hole through your charge safe for them.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Hmm. Conceivable but I don't think we can do anything about it. MAYBE Dandelor can reinforce the wards temporarily or something? We know they have at least SOME ability to absorb 'spikes' in power, given that Jaffur didn't instantly blow them up by going to Kaio-Ken x10 while a base super-saiyan (which would put his power level somewhere north of 1.6 billion, stronger than Golden Oozaru supposedly is).
It's a risk but again, I don't think we can do anything about it, because leaving Berra not only conscious but uninjured and free to act when we know he's already thinking of attacking the Senzus, AND while Lord Vegeta is recovering, AND while Jaffur is unconscious on the ground, is just too much risk to take. Ape mode slows him down, but not that much.
In keeping with his nature as a 'deconstructed shonen protagonist,' now that he's been taken over by the enemy he's just too goddamn strong for us to leave unengaged, or for us to have any real hope of winning the fight as long as he's still standing.
I think it's mostly just that by this point the royals are all so familiar with oozaru form that they don't really comment on it in their internal monologue that the person they're fighting is in fact a hundred-foot gorilla instead of a spiky-haired humanoid.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I suspect that relative levels of ki power matter a lot to the 'debuff via yelling' attack. A regular saiyan probably doesn't have the power to do that to a super-saiyan, just as a radio jammer that could blot out a cell phone's reception wouldn't necessarily do much good in overpowering a large military radio antenna.
Also, I don't think we should count on physical pain alone to disable Dandeer. This IS the woman who, as I recall, broke both her arms and collapsed a lung in order to convince Berra to help her seal Jaffur, remember?
Dandeer is, in terms of ki power, the only 'mere mortal' on the enemy side in this fight. Having the Senzus concentrate on keeping her out of the fight while we handle the remaining hostile royals seems like a much better division of labor than having the Senzus even try to contribute to the battle of the super-saiyans.
Also, I don't think we should count on physical pain alone to disable Dandeer. This IS the woman who, as I recall, broke both her arms and collapsed a lung in order to convince Berra to help her seal Jaffur, remember?
Dandeer is, in terms of ki power, the only 'mere mortal' on the enemy side in this fight. Having the Senzus concentrate on keeping her out of the fight while we handle the remaining hostile royals seems like a much better division of labor than having the Senzus even try to contribute to the battle of the super-saiyans.
It's hard to tell. There aren't any obvious WoG statements about the possibility, though my personal suspicion says that it might require at least some active defense which could help.
I am not particularily convinced that we need everyone we have available to incapacitate Dandeer though, so I suspect we might have at least some opportunity for trying something with a minimal opportunity cost.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
I'm fairly certain that Poptart has a handle on what's a Kakara thing to do.
Seems like a pointless breach of OPSEC when we really need to not.
The problem with this one is the same that you mentioned above; it leaves Vegeta free to blast the Senzu.
Conceptualist
Best Mega Sceptile
- Location
- I'm on the internet. Duh.
[] ...you need to even the numbers. Sorry, Dad. "Dandelor, do it."
-[] Knock out Dandeer now.
I think that pacifist would struggle with giving intense pain to a family member, but mostly in the long term. Short term, pragmatism wins.
-[] Knock out Dandeer now.
I think that pacifist would struggle with giving intense pain to a family member, but mostly in the long term. Short term, pragmatism wins.
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Wiadi
Uncompromising Radical Leftist
- Location
- Something Clever
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Depends on how survivable that hole is. Vegeta might reason (for example) "if I shoot a nonlethal hole through Dandeer to get her away from Kakara, then heal her with a Senzu Bean acquired from these convenient nearby Senzus later, she'll be safer than if I left her in enemy hands."
Well, presumably somewhat less so if he's unwilling to blast Dandeer, as we'll be headed in their direction while using her as a shield.
WorthyAlchemist?
100% certifiably without-a-doubt mediocre
- Location
- That place...yeah that one
I'm assuming you're talking about it going through her torso. If not correct me. In any case I'm pretty sure anything meant to go through Dandeer and hurt US is going to kill her.
Wiadi
Uncompromising Radical Leftist
- Location
- Something Clever
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Well, if Lord Vegeta has access to something along the lines of Jaffur's highly-concentrated ki beams, he could potentially put one through a non-critical part of Dandeer (like, I dunno, a shoulder or something) and hit Kakara at least hard enough to potentially make her drop Dandeer.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Could someone write an Omake that will give Barra a bonus to a willpower check for resistanting pain?
[ ] ...you need to even the numbers. Sorry, Dad. "Dandelor, do it."
Definitely this.
We cannot afford not to.
Taking out one of the most dangerous opponents before Vegeta can join is paramount.
The only question is what action to add here, and I agree that Dandeer most probably has a set of contingencies set up in case of her becoming unconscious, so I am against knocking her out.
Definitely this.
We cannot afford not to.
Taking out one of the most dangerous opponents before Vegeta can join is paramount.
The only question is what action to add here, and I agree that Dandeer most probably has a set of contingencies set up in case of her becoming unconscious, so I am against knocking her out.
- Location
- Academy City
- Pronouns
- They
If you can come up with a prompt that would fit that, I might be able to scrounge up some time to write that this weekend.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
This fight from Bara's perspective. Dandeer has sealed away all the reasons that he should not be on her side.
Carrnage
Human
- Location
- New Zealand
Well all his life sonce the talt rebelliom Berra has been either betrayed by those he trusted or unwittingly betrayed those who trusted him. So a bunch of flashbacks of various betrayals from his prospective and refusimg to let it happen again?