Dragon Ball: After the End

[LeMat]

[X] No. The moment isn't right just yet.
-[X] This is your last chance to inform Maya of what's going on. At least let her know to stay away from any of your people today.

Waiting for a better moment seems wise. Making sure Maya doesn't rush in if any trouble starts is also probably a good idea. And I think I'd rather save multiform for future emergencies or opportunities. We have most of the day to work with, and no reason to suspect enemy awareness.

 

[PoptartProdigy]

[X] No. The moment isn't right just yet.
-[X] Let's have that vision now (Breaking and Entering).
-[X] Project to Jaffur and let him know that you're incoming. As Jaron will be present, ensure that he cooperates with your plan.
-[X] Prepare sorcery to prevent detection and ensure that Jaron remains asleep.
-[X] Proceed Cat-like Tread. Sneak past the sentries, remove Jaron from his bed, and depart with no one the wiser. Jaron sleeps in on weekends, so this will, in theory, give you the most time before anybody gets suspicious.

Guys, can we not give away the game before we've secured Jaron? Papata Fren is reasonably fine, (though I'm somewhat against this. What if she sees Jaffur or Jaron go crazy? ), but if our father doesn't agree with us we are screwed.

Also let's use the advantages available to us. Magic and the Sight. We're really unlikely to be caught that way.

Click to shrink...

Quest, I think we're having some miscommunication on the format for this vote. Could you tell me what about this:

*runs a quick tally*

Oh, dear.

Alright, folks, PSA.

This vote is necessarily a weighty one. It does not need to also be byzantine to make it even more intimidating. I presented the voting options in a give way to ensure that it would not get too bad. Thus, to clarify: the following is the structure expected of these votes. I did not construct this structure with even a flicker of intent to verisimilitude. The purpose is solely to make things easy on people hoping to determine what they want. This structure serves a very concrete game design purpose, and deliberately discards from consideration any such factors as, "but this takes so little time it might as well be a free action," or, "come on, surely that should take two slots."

Clarified Voting Options

If you are satisfied with current conditions, and want to go to get Jaron immediately:

[ ] Yes. Go now and extract Jaron to Hall Senzu.
-[ ] Smash and grab. Get in, remove him before anybody can notice or object, and get out.
-[ ] Stealth game. Before you move in to get Jaron, take down the sentries. It'll give you some time before anybody can raise the alarm, and keep them out of harm's way.
-[ ] With catlike tread. Sneak past the sentries, remove Jaron from his bed, and depart with no one the wiser. Jaron sleeps in on weekends, so this will, in theory, give you the most time before anybody gets suspicious.
-[ ] Write-in. Bear in mind that it's pre-dawn on a weekend, for any proposals.

If you are not satisfied with current conditions, and want to kill time waiting for conditions to be optimal, pick at most one sub-option of the following:

[ ] No. The moment isn't right just yet.
-[ ] This is your last chance to inform Maya of what's going on. At least let her know to stay away from any of your people today.
-[ ] Let's have that vision now (write in what).
-[ ] Project to Jaffur and let him know that you're incoming.
-[ ] Armor up. This shouldn't come to a fight, but if Dandeer gets sufficiently desperate or crazed, you want insurance.
-[ ] Send Miss Fren a message to get to the Hall. You want a media presence when you humble Dandeer and end this charade.
-[ ] Write-in. Bear in mind that you need to get this shit sorted by today, and the sooner the better.

If you are not satisfied with current conditions, and actually want to quickly cover a lot of the above things, do this:

[ ] Multiform. Bear in mind your limits on this skill; today in particular, they will be important.
-[ ] Write in a plan
-[ ] composed of up to three
-[ ] compatible items from, "No. The moment isn't right just yet."

Do not mix-and-match between categories.

---

This vote is now open.

Click to shrink...

-is unclear?

I'd like to vote against building into the "No, the moment isn't right just yet" a provision that tells us how to proceed after we carry out the other options. The whole point of having a vision is that we can change our plans in response to it. Obviously we cannot do that if we vote for a plan that has, built-in, what we're going to do in the aftermath of the vote to actually go in and get Jaron.

Also, you're making some assumptions you're not checking...

@PoptartProdigy , how do you feel about the kind of vote Quest is doing, that features write-in options referencing things that we haven't specifically talked about having available to us like 'a body double' and 'sorcery to prevent detection and ensure that Jaron remains asleep?'

Click to shrink...

"I will let them try anything," used to be my custom title. The body double thing has come up, actually, way back when you first made contact with the Senzus. ("Surprising Nobody, Dandelor Is Uncomfortable," if you're looking.) You later confirmed that plan during the conspiracy meeting in, "The Rush To The Bottom." The sorcerous stealth thing is a viable option; from Kakara's studies over the last month, she thinks Dandelor would be able to do it easily. Ensuring that Jaron remains asleep is possible in principle, although Kakara thinks that Dandelor would probably need to be present to do it on short notice.

 

[Gore17]

[X] Yes. Go now and extract Jaron to Hall Senzu.
-[X] With catlike tread. Sneak past the sentries, remove Jaron from his bed, and depart with no one the wiser. Jaron sleeps in on weekends, so this will, in theory, give you the most time before anybody gets suspicious.

Problem with Stealth Game: I don't trust that we can't quickly and stealthily disable to watchers, and I don't trust that the watchers being knocked unconscious won't trigger an alarm of some sort.

 

[Quest]

Quest, I think we're having some miscommunication on the format for this vote. Could you tell me what about this:

Click to shrink...

That was my bad. It's late here, and I must have skimmed. I put a single action just a few posts before yours.

Problem with Stealth Game: I don't trust that we can't quickly and stealthily disable to watchers, and I don't trust that the watchers being knocked unconscious won't trigger an alarm of some sort.

Click to shrink...

What do you think about having a vision of the action in order to ensure we don't tip any alarms?

 

[Simon_Jester]

Yes it is, however Jaron himself is asleep which means that he's present in the Seal with all of his memories. If we can convince him to cooperate with us, we won't have to worry about him going after Dandeer in order to kill her after we free him.

Click to shrink...

Uh, Jaron's mind gets wiped when he wakes up, doesn't it? That's a big part of why he feels like he's going crazy; the Seal is leaking information into his head, then scrubbing it back out, repeatedly, which causes him tremendous anguish when he wakes up every morning, and moments of befuddlement every day.

 

[Ridiculously Average Guy]

[X] Yes. Go now and extract Jaron to Hall Senzu.
-[X] Stealth game. Before you move in to get Jaron, take down the sentries. It'll give you some time before anybody can raise the alarm, and keep them out of harm's way.


Commencing Virtuous Mission.

 

[Gore17]

What do you think about having a vision of the action in order to ensure we don't tip any alarms?

Click to shrink...

Very not worth it/a good idea. That vision is for the really important things, such as if this goes FUBAR.

 

[Alanek]

[X] Yes. Go now and extract Jaron to Hall Senzu.
-[X] With catlike tread. Sneak past the sentries, remove Jaron from his bed, and depart with no one the wiser. Jaron sleeps in on weekends, so this will, in theory, give you the most time before anybody gets suspicious.

Originally, I voted to do the day as normal. Then I realised that having bs coincidences of multiple plans happening on the same day is something to expect in dragonball- I don't trust that nothing will happen if we wait for the normal training session. Because you know something will.

 

[Simon_Jester]

Problem with Stealth Game: I don't trust that we can't quickly and stealthily disable to watchers, and I don't trust that the watchers being knocked unconscious won't trigger an alarm of some sort.

Click to shrink...

High power level can probably take care of the first consideration (speedblitz for the win!). The second consideration is important. I think we're at more risk of running into problems getting Jaron to come with us than we are from the guards, but the reverse could be true.

 

[Gore17]

High power level can probably take care of the first consideration (speedblitz for the win!). The second consideration is important. I think we're at more risk of running into problems getting Jaron to come with us than we are from the guards, but the reverse could be true.

Click to shrink...

My concern with a speedblitz is it being detected by Berra. And whether we're skilled enough to do so properly.

 

[QTesseract]

[X] Yes. Go now and extract Jaron to Hall Senzu.
-[X] Smash and grab. Get in, remove him before anybody can notice or object, and get out.

[X] Yes. Go now and extract Jaron to Hall Senzu.
-[X] Stealth game. Before you move in to get Jaron, take down the sentries. It'll give you some time before anybody can raise the alarm, and keep them out of harm's way.

 

[fictionfan]

Why all these plans to go into the sorceress lair that she has been building up defenses for years? Furthermore doing so with our ki surpressed and therefore leaving Karaka at her most vunderable when she has no pertinent skills in stealth? It seems like a way to give up all our advantages well giving Dandeer as many advantages as we can manage.

 

[Blonddude42]

@PoptartProdigy can we have options to kill time until we can nab Jaron during training? That's probably the optimal time to get him, and the way the vote is structured right now it seems biased against that.

Granted, that bias might be a feature, not a bug. I have no way of telling one way or another.

 

[Sir LagsAlot]

Why all these plans to go into the sorceress lair that she has been building up defenses for years? Furthermore doing so with our ki surpressed and therefore leaving Karaka at her most vunderable when she has no pertinent skills in stealth? It seems like a way to give up all our advantages well giving Dandeer as many advantages as we can manage.

Click to shrink...

I mean it's not like we have some sort of bonus to all our communication checks that we can use to help us convince Jaron to come train with us on a weekend. I'm mean if this was the case of course it would only be logical to go with the path that has the highest likelihood of success now wouldn't it?

 

[Blonddude42]

[X] No. The moment isn't right just yet.
-[X] Do (something) to productively pass the time until you can take Jaron under the pretense of training

I don't totally like this vote, but I'd like to take him then. Dandeer isn't allowed to stop us from training him unless he doesn't want to go, and Kakara will crush any attempt of his to resist that.

 

[PoptartProdigy]

@PoptartProdigy can we have options to kill time until we can nab Jaron during training? That's probably the optimal time to get him, and the way the vote is structured right now it seems biased against that.

Granted, that bias might be a feature, not a bug. I have no way of telling one way or another.

Click to shrink...

[X] No. The moment isn't right just yet.
-[X] Do (something) to productively pass the time until you can take Jaron under the pretense of training

I don't totally like this vote, but I'd like to take him then. Dandeer isn't allowed to stop us from training him unless he doesn't want to go, and Kakara will crush any attempt of his to resist that.

Click to shrink...

T'would seem you've found one. Just bear in mind that you're handing me a block of time and saying, "Here, Poptart, do with this as you will!"

 

[Blonddude42]

T'would seem you've found one. Just bear in mind that you're handing me a block of time and saying, "Here, Poptart, do with this as you will!"

Click to shrink...

Yeah, but if we can't trust you to do something Kakara would find smart and productive to do during that time. We've given it to you before, and it turned out fairly well.

Hell, I think it tends to work out better for us when we don't have as tight a grip on the reigns since that gives room for us to add mistakes to Kakara's thought process.
that and the psychological factor of GMs being reluctant to screw over the players out of the blue for that kind of thing

 

[Cariyaga]

Besides, I want the QM to have fun too!
e:
[X] No. The moment isn't right just yet.
-[X] Do (something) to productively pass the time until you can take Jaron under the pretense of training

 

[PoptartProdigy]

Yeah, but if we can't trust you to do something Kakara would find smart and productive to do during that time. We've given it to you before, and it turned out fairly well.

Hell, I think it tends to work out better for us when we don't have as tight a grip on the reigns since that gives room for us to add mistakes to Kakara's thought process.
that and the psychological factor of GMs being reluctant to screw over the players out of the blue for that kind of thing

Click to shrink...

Now why'd you include that invisitext? Now I feel all tempted to screw you on this.

More seriously: including very broad directives leaves Kakara to interpret said directives. This works very well when the thread is attempting to talk to somebody, as Kakara is good at those things. In general, Kakara is smart and doesn't have to rely on an imperfect translator in order to navigate her context, giving her some advantages.

However, much as fine-grained player control has the downside of opening up player-side mistakes, broad directives which Kakara interprets have their own downside: she has her blind spots.

 

[Jrin]

[X] No. The moment isn't right just yet.
-[X] This is your last chance to inform Maya of what's going on. At least let her know to stay away from any of your people today.

 

[Akiri]

Taking Jaron now, by smash and grab or stealth, means that we start the "Dandeer gets alerted" timer instantly. We don't know how long that'll take, and we can probably get away with it, but if there is any failure mode, that's it. Taking Jaffur now with catlike tread is safer, but then we have to deal with Jaron, immediately, and either convince him or force him to come with us - which could also explode in our face and alert the sentries if things go badly. If it goes perfectly, that gives us a few hours until someone wonders why he's not getting out of bed.

I also really don't want to see what magic traps and alarms Dandeer has in her own house.

If we wait to grab him in a training session, that gives us more freedom. The sentries expect him to be with us for a while, and it's not too unreasonable to keep him for a few hours. That generally gives us the same timeframe as the best case for grabbing him now. We can also swap with our doubles, so that even if the sentries get worried and check on us, they can see "Karen" and "Jaron" still training. This gives us the best chance of getting everything done before Dandeer knows we've even started.

Waiting also gives us a chance to prepare... though I confess I'm not sure what exactly would be most productive way to do that. Approval voting to the rescue! I don't want to do literally nothing to get ready, but that would be preferable to rushing in now, I think.

[X] No The moment isn't right just yet.
-[X] Proceed with the day as normal, then grab Jaron during the normal training session.

[X] No. The moment isn't right just yet.
-[X] Send Miss Fren a message to get to the Hall. You want a media presence when you humble Dandeer and end this charade.

[X] No. The moment isn't right just yet.
-[X] This is your last chance to inform Maya of what's going on. At least let her know to stay away from any of your people today.

[X] No. The moment isn't right just yet.
-[X] Do (something) to productively pass the time until you can take Jaron under the pretense of training

(Giving the choice to the Lawful Evil QM. What could possibly go wrong?)

 

[Simon_Jester]

Why all these plans to go into the sorceress lair that she has been building up defenses for years? Furthermore doing so with our ki surpressed and therefore leaving Karaka at her most vunderable when she has no pertinent skills in stealth? It seems like a way to give up all our advantages well giving Dandeer as many advantages as we can manage.

Click to shrink...

On the other hand, we enter this residence routinely, on a regular basis, and we know that Dandeer herself is not present, giving us time to snap-shot power up before the mistress of the house arrives.

My concern with a speedblitz is it being detected by Berra. And whether we're skilled enough to do so properly.

Click to shrink...

Also a relevant concern, since Dandeer may have chosen guards whose resting power level is high, precisely to avoid this kind of problem.

@PoptartProdigy , given Kakara's ki sense I'm sure she knows the answer to this question: what's the guards' power level? Also, is Berra awake and if so, where is he?

I mean it's not like we have some sort of bonus to all our communication checks that we can use to help us convince Jaron to come train with us on a weekend. I'm mean if this was the case of course it would only be logical to go with the path that has the highest likelihood of success now wouldn't it?

Click to shrink...

The hard part isn't "can we succeed in convincing Jaron to come train with us on a weekend," it's that:
1) Convincing him to do so now will likely take time, since he's still in bed. Time in which the guards may be alerted, or for that matter their being out of the picture may be noticed.
2) Convincing him later risks Dandeer coming home which is arguably our worst-case scenario, especially since she may have noticed something amiss from all the behavior of Yammar's Vegetan conspirators.

It's a tradeoff.

 

[Blonddude42]

Now why'd you include that invisitext? Now I feel all tempted to screw you on this.

More seriously: including very broad directives leaves Kakara to interpret said directives. This works very well when the thread is attempting to talk to somebody, as Kakara is good at those things. In general, Kakara is smart and doesn't have to rely on an imperfect translator in order to navigate her context, giving her some advantages.

However, much as fine-grained player control has the downside of opening up player-side mistakes, broad directives which Kakara interprets have their own downside: she has her blind spots.

Click to shrink...

Some GMs take offense to the fact that some of their actions can be predicted by psychological tendencies. Like not wanting* to deal with the near guaranteed salt storm actively screwing the players over causes. Easier to choose something aggressively neutral where something is done that's helpful, but not "very clever write-in" helpful.


*when they don't need to do so, with 'need' typically defined as "players made a series of bad decisions and/or the dice are really out to get them"



As for the free reign you'd take with this, my gut is telling me Kakara would probably do something social to be productive. Maybe alert the doubles (wherever they are) and other allies that she's gonna be taking him during her training session.

[X] No The moment isn't right just yet.
-[X] Proceed with the day as normal, then grab Jaron during the normal training session.

[X] No. The moment isn't right just yet.
-[X] Send Miss Fren a message to get to the Hall. You want a media presence when you humble Dandeer and end this charade.

[X] No. The moment isn't right just yet.
-[X] This is your last chance to inform Maya of what's going on. At least let her know to stay away from any of your people today.

[X] No. The moment isn't right just yet.
-[X] Do (something) to productively pass the time until you can take Jaron under the pretense of training

 

[Pittauro]

[X] Multiform. Bear in mind your limits on this skill; today in particular, they will be important.
-[X] This is your last chance to inform Maya of what's going on. At least let her know to stay away from any of your people today.
-[X] Let's have that vision now (Breaking and Entering).
-[X] Send Miss Fren a message to get to the Hall. You want a media presence when you humble Dandeer and end this charade.

[X] No. The moment isn't right just yet.
-[X] Send Miss Fren a message to get to the Hall. You want a media presence when you humble Dandeer and end this charade.

[X] No. The moment isn't right just yet.
-[X] This is your last chance to inform Maya of what's going on. At least let her know to stay away from any of your people today.

i'm not sure if i want to use the first multiform right now, but if we didn't i'd prefer to inform Maya or Fren and then wait.

Usually i would agree with the "perfect is the enemy of good enough" and "better a good plan now than a perfect one never", but we're not deciding to wait days. Just a few hours. And i sorta remember reading that the good thieves do not steal in the night, but during the day, when nobody expects it. It's kinda like that for us, anything we do would be more suspect in the night/very early morning than during the day.

Dandeer has no reason to suspect TODAY will be different than any other day, and it would be better to act naturally and according to schedule until the right moment (Kakara is quite in love with her schedules ) than to do something as out of character and needlessly risky as going in the lair of the enemy when we don't need to.

For all we know the only reason wards did not attack us in the past when we entered the house was because we did not have hostile(to dandeer) intentions. And after we went over her head to train Jaron, she probably prepared something in case we ever became hostile inside her home.

 

[veekie]

[X] No The moment isn't right just yet.
-[X] Proceed with the day as normal, then grab Jaron during the normal training session.