Bakkasama
There is always a greater fool
- Location
- Buenos Aires, Argentina
- Pronouns
- He/his
It might be that she sealed it in case someone asked him or told him what he supposedly did before he was sealed but it is weird.
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Dragon Ball: After the End
It might be that she sealed it in case someone asked him or told him what he supposedly did before he was sealed but it is weird.
I'm still not getting your point.
Unless you're asserting that Jaron's creation wasn't an accident, but was deliberate. And even then I'm not following the chain of logic.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
My point is that there is something very strange going on, because none of our previous theories fit the situation as it stands. The facts/strongly supported assumptions are as follows:
- There is no reason for Dandeer to lock this memory away after the Sealing, as Jaffur is not supposed to exist as a separate entity to Jaron - none of these memories should be accessible at all.
- Therefore she almost certainly sealed this particular memory the night before the Sealing, as she told Berra.
- It makes no sense for Jaffur to lie as we will immediately discover the deception through his own request, so he must be telling the truth - nothing happened involving him the night before the Sealing.
- This means Dandeer lied to Berra about what happened that night.
- But if nothing happened that night, there was no reason for Dandeer to seal that specific memory in the first place - no other Sorcerer would inspect Jaffur's mind between that night and the Sealing.
- Thus, from the evidence we have available to us, the fact that this small memory seal exists at all is extremely strange.
- Berra would have no reason to order a sorcerer to inspect the mind of Jaffur to verify that Dandeer did seal his memory, as he had no reason to doubt this.
- The only person who would be looking at Jaffur's mind between the night in question and the Sealing is Dandeer.
- No one could have reasonably predicted the freak accident involving Jaffur's sorcery, and so whatever plan this seal serves could not have taken his continued existence into account.
- Thus, the only person who should have been in a position to see this seal was Dandeer.
- The seal is therefore there to affect Dandeer in some way.
- The only way it existing could feasibly affect her is the knowledge that it is there.
- Dandeer would have noticed if it was not there.
- LOGIC JUMP: The seal is there to avoid contradicting a narrative that requires it to be there.
- Dandeer thinks it's there because she put it there, after subduing Jaffur - this never happened.
- Someone mind-whammied Dandeer into thinking Jaffur attacked her and she sealed his memories of the event.
- Someone mind-whammied Dandeer, and now everything about her actions and memories/beliefs is suspect.
EDIT: In fact: Yo @Simon_Jester , you like theorising about things. Come help me out here!
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
I'm explicitly assuming he isn't lying to us. I'm not sure where your confusion stems from - I wrote this out as clearly as I could.
The Fourth Monado
S U B A R A S H I I
- Location
- Away
this.
The political ramifications of the Gokun and Vegetan Scions marrying are at this point currently unknown.
Bakkasama
There is always a greater fool
- Location
- Buenos Aires, Argentina
- Pronouns
- He/his
Well, Berra seems skilled in Mind Delve and we know that magic can protect people from it. If Dandeer knew that Berra was skilled in mind delve, which she might since they are childhood friends, she might have expected for him to use it in Jaffur to figure out why he attacked Dandeer the night she sealed Vegeta. If Jaffur didn't attack Dandeer and she was lying to Berra, she might have sealed the memory just in case that Berra decided to check Jaffur's memory of the fact to see why he attacked her and if it was worth sealing him over. By telling Berra she erased Jaffur's memory she stopped him from checking and if it was somehow mentioned before Jaffur was sealed, as in Berra mentioning to Jaffur they did this because he attacked his mother, then Jaffur wouldn't remember that he didn't and couldn't contradict him. So she might just have been throughout.
Wiadi
Uncompromising Radical Leftist
- Location
- Something Clever
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Possible explanation: had the events surrounding the Sealing gone differently, there might have been an opening for conversation with Jaffur - for instance, if he was successfully subdued in less frantic circumstances, or (improbable though it might be) decided to come quietly. In that case, if questioned about his actions the previous night, he would of course have denied doing anything to harm Dandeer. She could have argued that he was just lying, but a Mind Delve from Berra would have been able to ascertain the truth of the matter, so she needed an excuse for why the memory wouldn't show up at all.
EDIT: aaaaaaaand I go to the trouble of un-lurking just to have my theory ninja'd. Oh well.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
I don't think it was ever likely for Berra to do such a thing... but I suppose I could see Dandeer not wanting to take the risk.
Damn, I really thought I was onto something there. Though this does still leave the question of what we missed in the latest update that Poptart thought we'd be debating?
CaesriusPolybius
Worldgate Mechanic
- Location
- United States. Ish.
... part of me wants to argue with this, but then I remembered some of Jaffur's early rolls...
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Maybe that memory doesn't actually exist, and never formed for some reason? Maybe that memory was Sealed away from Jaffur's mind before the primary Sealing?
I suspect Jaffur sucks at lying, compared to Kakara's ability to pick up on a lie.
What Jaffur saw is what he remembers. He already told us in our first extended conversation that he isn't really sure what happened, doesn't remember, thinks there must have been something but doesn't know what it was, something like that.
It sounds like he didn't lie by saying "I slept through that night," it's that all he remembers is a normal bedtime. Which is clearly not what happened, Jaffur's not stupid and knows that, so he's asking us to fill in the blank for him.
Okay, let's go back to your initial premises.
"There is no reason for Dandeer to lock this memory away after the Sealing, as Jaffur is not supposed to exist as a separate entity to Jaron - none of these memories should be accessible at all. Therefore she almost certainly sealed this particular memory the night before the Sealing, as she told Berra."
-True.
"It makes no sense for Jaffur to lie as we will immediately discover the deception through his own request, so he must be telling the truth - nothing happened involving him the night before the Sealing."
-Ah-HA.
You're missing something here. Jaffur doesn't have to lie in order to tell us that nothing happened, he just has to be factually wrong. We point blank asked him what happened the night before the Sealing in our last conversation, and he told us he didn't remember. It may well be that he remembers something uneventful, but knows something must have happened. It would explain everything about Jaffur's behavior.
"This means Dandeer lied to Berra about what happened that night. But if nothing happened that night, there was no reason for Dandeer to seal that specific memory in the first place - no other Sorcerer would inspect Jaffur's mind between that night and the Sealing. Thus, from the evidence we have available to us, the fact that this small memory seal exists at all is extremely strange."
Dandeer may well have sealed a memory because something happened, in an attempt to pacify Jaffur or avoid some disastrous result for herself. Jaffur, with no precise or accurate recollection and only a false memory or a blank in his mind that said mind "filled in" with innocuous and normal events, would believe that nothing happened or that he didn't remember. Dandeer would indeed have lied to Berra, and the small memory seal is explained.
This would be one of several possible explanations for Dandeer's actions, yes.
I think it would be highly likely for Berra to use Mind Delve on Jaffur under the circumstances.
Remember, if Jaffur hadn't unloaded a ridiculous can of whupass onto Berra, Berra, who is both the pre-eminent duelist of his generation and a full-powered super-saiyan fighting a barely-ascended child, should have had little difficulty subduing Jaffur. He would have had plenty of freedom of action to read Jaffur's mind, and it would be a natural course of action for Berra's justice-loving personality to try to understand what had happened. Perhaps not inevitable, but natural enough; I imagine that he uses Mind Delve not infrequently in cases where some crime is involved, and it's certainly his prerogative to do so in his official capacity.
So Dandeer might well have specifically expected Berra to try to read Jaffur's mind and seen it as a likely contingency.
...
By doing as we did, we completely threw a monkey wrench in this. Berra had to subdue two troublesome super-saiyan eight-year-olds, not one, and had to do so while coping with the psychological shock and quasi-betrayal of knowing that his daughter was willing to fight him to prevent an obviously insane and dangerous boy from being brought back into line, a boy who had directly threatened her and knocked her out for... hours if not days. This disrupted what might otherwise have been a fairly orderly and responsible attempt by Berra to find the facts.
[Granted, Berra might not have done such a thing as I describe, but he easily could have]
Possibly this very thing? Or not. [shrugs]
Ridiculously Average Guy
I'm you, but stronger
- Location
-
Pretty sure he's asking us to confirm what happened because he doesn't want to believe what happened/what his memory showed him.
It was clearly incredibly fucking traumatic given his reaction, so obv. "nothing happened" is bullshit.
It's just that whatever happened is bad enough that he doesn't want it to be true.
It was clearly incredibly fucking traumatic given his reaction, so obv. "nothing happened" is bullshit.
It's just that whatever happened is bad enough that he doesn't want it to be true.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
That is also a distinct possibility, since the one way Jaffur could plausibly lie to Kakara successfully is by stonefacing and pretending nothing is wrong, a skill he has tremendous prior experience in from pre-Sealing.
He doesn't want to believe what he remembers? Or is simply panicked?
I don't really get the assertion that he wouldn't lie to us; we certainly lied to everyone of the Misfits, and are still witholding information we know will come out eventually.
This is my ongoing theory.
I'm generally pretty wary of any idea that means all the blame in this clusterfuck can be blamed mostly on one person; it doesn't fit the pattern of the GM's work, and is too convenient.
IC, people screw up, and have their screwups compounded by others.
The death of one loyalist led to one grudgebearer's rebellion, that led to Gold Man Genocide's overreaction, that broke Vegeta Snr, that disgusted Berra, whose disgust shattered Vegeta Snr, whose broken self abused his wife and son, which led to the situation we are in here.
I don't really see it all turning back to center on Dandeer alone.
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Yes, but speculation passes the time and prepares us for what to think in case some of the more likely contingencies of what we might learn arise.
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Welp. Just realized. I'm writing an update about Kakara scrying the night Dandeer took hideous, graphic injuries, with a specific eye towards how exactly that happened.
Yeah, this is going for mod review before posting. Unknown and frankly unknowable levels of delay, incoming. I'll have the update done and submitted tonight, but anybody's guess when a staff member will get around to it.
Yeah, this is going for mod review before posting. Unknown and frankly unknowable levels of delay, incoming. I'll have the update done and submitted tonight, but anybody's guess when a staff member will get around to it.
By escape, I meant before getting Sealed.
Also, another possibility occurred: Jaffur saw the memory, then immediately forgot it, as the memory seal is still active, but he remembers how he reacted. Hence why he wants Kakara to check. I consider this unlikely, but possible with the information known.
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- Location
- Actually pretty lost
But he just saw the memory this update - he now knows exactly what happened that night involving him, and apparently it was nothing.
I suppose that might fit. It wouldn't really accomplish anything, but it's not totally OOC for him...
We lied for very well thought out reasons to accomplish specific goals, so that's not really the same thing. Him panicking or acting illogically is possible though.
Oooh, that could fit.
- Location
- northern europe
your picture seems familiar... it's awesome!
wait, I think it's same dude that I have as my picture! Z!Goku!
High five!
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
When a rock in Jaffur's mindspace explodes, that memory may NOT be intact.
Can we just... not build complicated theories based on the supposition that Jaffur does know what happened on the night of the Sealing?
Because firstly, he's explicitly told us he doesn't, and secondly, Dandeer specifically told Berra that she'd tampered with his memory of that night.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
I don't understand your objection. It's been well-established that the rocks come back fully, given how every day Jaron destroys every single one of them and they grow back. And immediately after it came back, he went from saying he couldn't remember the night at all to saying he remembered nothing happening that night.