Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)

Your mental form is instantaneously destroyed and replaced. The perception of continuity is an illusion. The classification of identity is a social construct.

The rapidity, separation or force isn't important. What is important is the continuity of important values and personal characteristics. If aliens gradually alter your mind by tweaking individual neurons over the course of a decade so that at the end of it your brain is like a mental clone of Hitler then isn't that personality death no matter how long it takes? On the other hand if aliens rapidly rewire your brain so you like licorice more than vanilla (or vice versa) then is that really a death?

Here is another scenario.

Situation A: You get a magic nanobot pill that when consumed improves the physical health of the body to peak health.

Situation B: You get a magic nanobot pill that when consumed scans the entire body, painlessly turns the body into a kind of nanorobot controlled goo (including the brain). Then uses the goo to construct a new healthy body based on the saved data.

If the person at the end of Situation A and Situation B is physically and mentally identical then why would you need to declare B legally dead? They are the same person, B just spent some time unconscious, stored in memory.

As I have stated before this is a matter of the perspective of the subject.
The question should not be one of what everyone one else perceives, but of what the subject perceives assuming it is for their benefit. Imagine going in for a "Immortality procedure" that "rejuvenates" the body only to find that what they do is create a perfect copy of you except with a more youthful form that is essentially while you live an identical twin of yourself except with a younger healthier form and then after making said twin they just kill you so that for all practical AND EXTERNAL considerations it is as if you have been given a rejuvenation of health and a new lease on life.

As for continuity:

The personality may evolve and new memories may be gained, however there is a smoothness to this transition and it is built in the very realm of the mind on the foundation of all previous elements.
Is the mind not the sum of its parts all of which run together and yet on their own times and individually.
Does the death or change of a single neuron change the pattern of one's nature or determine the existence of the brain's dynamic nature and it's overarching patterns?
The mind is that dynamic process whereby experience, architecture, and adaptation bound by the former meet in a constant process to effect change upon the smaller preexisting elements of the aforementioned architecture.
The mind is no monolith whereby continuity is a binary aspect, but rather like a churning river which flows and changes and may tolerate to a point and even naturalize forced change from external factors using its own processes where they are compatible.

In addition please allow me to use the example of if time within a region could be paused and unpaused and arguments regarding whether or not that or even the very passing of time counts as death, replacement, a disruption of personal continuity, and/or creation/recreation.
Time stopping and starting back up has no bearing on continuity because it does not introduce any changes from the original's perspective in terms of experience noticeable for a time or not, the universe's, or anything within it. No events happen visible or hidden, real or practical, or internal to the universe. No internal interruptions or transitions take place except in the sense that it is paused and unpaused. Where is any difference between original and new introduced that is any more of a difference than the passing of a second. How is the passing of time not the smoothest possible transition for all things? To be frozen and unfrozen in time would introduce no internal change, split, or transition exceeding the nature of time. How is to be paused and unpaused at all as much an interruption of one's self self as to be copy pasted? Where is the divide between copy and original!?

And so continuity is not an illusion.
Because continuity is not an illusion your arguments regarding that are in this context invalid.

A mind is the sum of its parts: The line of perspective and continuity, personality and quirks of processing, and of course memories.

To destroy the flowing process of the mind which holds it's own viewpoint and perspective is to destroy the original. The event even if covered up perfectly still happened and the original perspective while in it's time fluid and dynamic still experienced cessation. The experience of the legacy does not carry over to the original, but rather to itself and the observer.

Nearly everyone assumes that mind 'uploading' needs to be a "simple" copy and paste process.
It seems most folks rarely consider that due to philosophical concerns one may opt for gradual replacement 'uploading' wherein dying tissue is replaced over time without changing the overall structure, how it actually functions, or even stopping and replacing separately the dynamic flowing instance and structure of the mind.
Eventually the organic body would no longer be needed.
It also seems that usually when people do notice they do their best to argue against the latter method in favor of the copy and paste method.
I suspect strongly that in today's society philosophy especially when at odds with any given scientifically or technologically derived process not yet taboo is largely seen as being at best of minor importance and at worst "unscientific" and therefore not of "rational" consideration.

By the way, how and in what exact context is the classification of identity a social construct?
If classification of it is a social construct does that make identity and the differences used also social constructs?
The words and way we classify colour is a social construct however this does not nullify the differences we use labels to sort through any less real and independently true and so different wavelengths still act as they do.
We may sort things differently or use different labels however this does not determine or nullify the natural differences of what we consider.
 
man based on how bad tattle reacted just to avid glove you gotta imagine what would happen if you used a vortex grenade within her line of sight

like lord said that Joe's vortex grenades don't open to a warp with deamons in it, and/or they don't exist because of there was no war in heaven(which is totally plausible if the lore is anything to go by)

that said, the warp is still toxic to anything that relies on the laws of physics, and it's specifically known to cause total madness even in people with exposure so miniscule it can barely be said to exist

do you think thinkers would play a game of "how long can you stare into the warp without going mad"?
 
Source of nigh infinite energy, whats not to love? All at the low, low cost of some hosts sanity.

I'm pretty sure even the thinker herself would be like: "THE SPIDERS ARE MADE OUT OF EYE BALLS!!!!!"

...or something

not to mention aving to share headspace with a deamon

*imagines giant glass shard with cowboy outfit *

"listen here pall this head is two small for the two of us"
 
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Your mental form is instantaneously destroyed and replaced. The perception of continuity is an illusion. The classification of identity is a social construct.

The rapidity, separation or force isn't important. What is important is the continuity of important values and personal characteristics. If aliens gradually alter your mind by tweaking individual neurons over the course of a decade so that at the end of it your brain is like a mental clone of Hitler then isn't that personality death no matter how long it takes? On the other hand if aliens rapidly rewire your brain so you like licorice more than vanilla (or vice versa) then is that really a death?

Here is another scenario.

Situation A: You get a magic nanobot pill that when consumed improves the physical health of the body to peak health.

Situation B: You get a magic nanobot pill that when consumed scans the entire body, painlessly turns the body into a kind of nanorobot controlled goo (including the brain). Then uses the goo to construct a new healthy body based on the saved data.

If the person at the end of Situation A and Situation B is physically and mentally identical then why would you need to declare B legally dead? They are the same person, B just spent some time unconscious, stored in memory.
"Are you familiar with the thought experiment, 'The Ship of Theseus?' in the field of identity metaphysics?"

If Person B has been completely replaced, especially with a body not identical to the original, are they the same person? Person A was "healed" instead of being replaced.
 
Yeah … the bloodborne ones will be wild
Mostly because of this one
[Free/Mandatory] "Hunter" - Apparently, from what you can gather, you are now a Hunter. This means a number of things, including access to the Hunter's Dream. What that means is that instead of dying, you will wake up in the Hunter's Dream and be able to travel to and from it using Lanterns found around the world.

That sounds nice at first, until you realize one of your fellow hunters is a bit too good at this, the mysterious foreign one that is. This Hunter will end the nightmare soon, within a day or two, severing your connection to the dream.
There isn't much you can do about it, so enjoy it while it lasts. Another boon of being a Hunter besides being able to visit the dream is the admiration of Messengers, small infantile creatures that can prove useful in some scenarios. I'll explain about them later. Lastly, it seems your new body has some. . .hidden assets. You have an affliction, though one you can control on some level.
There's a beast inside you, trying to get out, trying to take you over. Though it takes a bit of concentration, you may temporarily unleash some of this beast's strength in the form of a "Visceral Attack".
This attack temporarily transforms your hand into a beastly claw which will slide through the flesh of a prone enemy like a hot knife through butter. Careful not to draw on this power too often though. . . This perk also comes with the Mandatory "Inner Beast" drawback, detailed in the drawback section
 
Yeah … the bloodborne ones will be wild
Mostly because of this one
[Free/Mandatory] "Hunter" - Apparently, from what you can gather, you are now a Hunter. This means a number of things, including access to the Hunter's Dream. What that means is that instead of dying, you will wake up in the Hunter's Dream and be able to travel to and from it using Lanterns found around the world.

That sounds nice at first, until you realize one of your fellow hunters is a bit too good at this, the mysterious foreign one that is. This Hunter will end the nightmare soon, within a day or two, severing your connection to the dream.
There isn't much you can do about it, so enjoy it while it lasts. Another boon of being a Hunter besides being able to visit the dream is the admiration of Messengers, small infantile creatures that can prove useful in some scenarios. I'll explain about them later. Lastly, it seems your new body has some. . .hidden assets. You have an affliction, though one you can control on some level.
There's a beast inside you, trying to get out, trying to take you over. Though it takes a bit of concentration, you may temporarily unleash some of this beast's strength in the form of a "Visceral Attack".
This attack temporarily transforms your hand into a beastly claw which will slide through the flesh of a prone enemy like a hot knife through butter. Careful not to draw on this power too often though. . . This perk also comes with the Mandatory "Inner Beast" drawback, detailed in the drawback section
Not familiar with Bloodborne or The World Ends With You, but if Joe somehow gets the Reaper power on top of Mental Fortress but in the way mentioned in the WoG where he'll need to manage his issues or else fall to Reaperdom, that works really well with the Inner Beast. It'd add an interesting dimension and mechanism of stakes to Joe's character growth and the issues he has to face.

While due to it being post-jump, there's "Your Inner Beast has been pacified, giving you access to their powers without possibility of losing yourself to them allowing you to more easily use visceral attacks.", I still think it's possible for Inner Beast to flavor Reaperdom such as bringing back up forgotten/pacified instincts or feelings from the Inner Beast that will always be brought back under control but will worsen the feeling of possibly slipping into Reaperdom.

Also, it seems like Lord probably is using the V1.1 Bloodborne doc.

On the freebie Revival or Reaper power from Fashion Nonvictim (TWEWY):
I'm still working out how to manage these effects. They are very powerful boosts to get with a 200 point perk, but then again, not that much more significant than Out of Context Problem. If I was taking a pure Forge stance then the right decision would be to go for the crafting perks, meaning reaper and pin creation. The thing is there's a interesting idea in tying the perk to how you manage a personal flaw that you need to work past. Joe getting the knowledge that he has to manage a aspect of his personality that's been a big detriment to him or he's going to turn into a reaper with abilities powered by death would be a big moment for him. The idea that the Revival perks could be tied to that progress would also be interesting. Knowing that if he slips back into Doormat or Downer behavior he could end up loosing access to a key power would be an interesting way to drive self reflection and improvement.

Haven't nailed down exactly how it will work in the story, but there's some interesting potential there.

On Reaperdom from the TWEWY Jump doc:
Reaperdom: Or, instead of pressing through the Reaper's Game, you can take the easy way out and make a bargain for power. Reaperdom comes with a number of benefits: First, you can now
attune yourself to the UG or the RG as you see fit. When you're attuned to the UG, black skeletal wings manifest from your back. Attuning yourself to the UG makes you invisible and intangible. Attuning yourself to the UG also amplifies the power of your Psychs. Secondly, you can now fight Noise (or Players) on your own using a shadowy projection. You will be able to o perate both bodies independently without confusion.

However, it comes with a big caveat: Your continued existence depends upon the erasure of Players. If you don't erase any Players, then you will fade from existence after a week - So you must kill at least one Player in order to keep yourself alive. Considering that Reaper's Games
might take place weeks or even months apart, it's generally a good idea to erase mulitple players to "bank up" your timer.
If you leave this world to go to another, then you will not need to kill people to sustain yourself, but you will need to kill people to access your Reaper powers. One kill will give you access to your powers for a week. These kills can be acheived directly or indirectly - So long as people died because of your actions, then it counts.

You also get access to exclusive Reaper perks, and 200 cp to spend on them.
 
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As I have stated before this is a matter of the perspective of the subject.
That is the scenario I just described. If you believe being cursed to turn into Hitler is preferable to being killed and replaced by an identical copy then I suspect our views are axiomatically irreconcilable and this has drifted far enough off topic that I'm going to bow out. If you want to continue the discussion you could revive Do Star Trek-esque Teleporters kill people? Discussion
"Are you familiar with the thought experiment, 'The Ship of Theseus?' in the field of identity metaphysics?"

If Person B has been completely replaced, especially with a body not identical to the original, are they the same person? Person A was "healed" instead of being replaced.
I have strong opinions on the notion of identity. Of course I've heard of 'The Ship of Theseus'. The label or identity of 'The Ship of Theseus' isn't something innate to the ship it is a quality of how people treat it. It is a social construction like a national border or a holiday season. Whether the Ship of Theseus is still the Ship of Theseus isn't a scientific question. It is a political/legal/cultural question with a subjective answer.
 
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That is the scenario I just described. If you believe being cursed to turn into Hitler is preferable to being killed and replaced by an identical copy then I suspect our views are axiomatically irreconcilable and this has drifted far enough off topic that I'm going to bow out. If you want to continue the discussion you could revive Do Star Trek-esque Teleporters kill people? Discussion

I have strong opinions on the notion of identity. Of course I've heard of 'The Ship of Theseus'. The label or identity of 'The Ship of Theseus' isn't something innate to the ship it is quality of how people treat it. . It is a social construction like a national border or a holiday season. Whether the Ship of Theseus still the Ship of Theseus isn't a scientific question. It is a political/legal/cultural question with a subjective answer.
I don't see how this conversation relates to Joe bringing people back to life. LR has stated that Joe would need to capture souls before they disappeared to be capable of revival. Presumably, the soul leaves at the point of brain death. That is, IIRC, ten minutes after the heart stops. Plenty of time for an artificial afterlife machine to grab onto them, and this doesn't even mention the Lord of Light reincarnation tech. Your understanding of identity is irrelevant to the fact that Joe literally has a solid through-line through which the original can be maintained. The soul remains and can be brought back.
 
I don't see how this conversation relates to Joe bringing people back to life. LR has stated that Joe would need to capture souls before they disappeared to be capable of revival. Presumably, the soul leaves at the point of brain death. That is, IIRC, ten minutes after the heart stops. Plenty of time for an artificial afterlife machine to grab onto them, and this doesn't even mention the Lord of Light reincarnation tech. Your understanding of identity is irrelevant to the fact that Joe literally has a solid through-line through which the original can be maintained. The soul remains and can be brought back.
Is the soul the actual person though? Or is the spiritual echo the body creates? What happens to people that die with brain damage or abnormal neural function? I reiterate
this has drifted far enough off topic
 
Is the soul the actual person though? Or is the spiritual echo the body creates? What happens to people that die with brain damage or abnormal neural function? I reiterate
According to WOG, Joe has access to multiple soul models which the Forge equates for him, and I think with the Percy Jackson/Fate model of souls, you can say souls are the actual person, among being other things. Also, seeing as Joe was capable of thinking beyond his Life-Fibered brain, outright stating that most of his slow cognition was taking place in his soul, I don't think neurology is that big of a concern.
 
That's what was being discussed originally. It kinda mutated a bit

"Are you familiar with the thought experiment, 'The Ship of Theseus?' in the field of identity metaphysics?"

That's what I was originally trying to convey but I didn't know how to link it before now. It was meant to be a joke dig at discussing whether or not a person who has been physically replaced with a copy or other version of themselves is still qualifies as "themself".
 
That is the scenario I just described. If you believe being cursed to turn into Hitler is preferable to being killed and replaced by an identical copy then I suspect our views are axiomatically irreconcilable and this has drifted far enough off topic that I'm going to bow out. If you want to continue the discussion you could revive Do Star Trek-esque Teleporters kill people? Discussion

I have strong opinions on the notion of identity. Of course I've heard of 'The Ship of Theseus'. The label or identity of 'The Ship of Theseus' isn't something innate to the ship it is quality of how people treat it. . It is a social construction like a national border or a holiday season. Whether the Ship of Theseus still the Ship of Theseus isn't a scientific question. It is a political/legal/cultural question with a subjective answer.
There you go again ignoring what has already been stated and now worse putting words in my mouth.
I did not state that being cursed to turn into Hitler would be preferable, such a drastic change would be worse however that does not magically make being killed or replaced by a copy better except in comparison.
While organization may be constructed, logical relations and states of perspective do not possess this inherent limitation so as to in most cases fall under the classification of social construct.
 
You know, I think we should just drop the sense of self thing. At this point I don't think anyone is going to change their minds and this is becoming a derail.

edit: Change of topic, we have about 16 hours to kill until the next update (hopefully), so, what do you all think will happen?
 
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So, what do we think tonight's chapter is going to cover? I'm thinking the arrival of the remaining Somer's Rock parties and Joe beginning to use Survey to sneakily collect immense amounts of data and information on everyone there, in preparation for his "No more hiding" sentiment.
 
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