Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)

Coil is happy because when he asks Dinah, chances of Apeiron interfering with his operation are low. Plus, with him being a mercenary, he assumes that he can have Joe in his pocket instead.

He's also counting on the "fact" that Ape Monkey Iron never breaks a contract for any reason, a side effect of his Mad Tinker classification that everyone "knows" to be true. He's might be thinking he can subvert The Undersiders to somehow sneak something into a contract, and once Joe agrees, Coil can then swoop in and be like:

Coil: "Because you agreed to this contract, which includes convoluted and/or vague language, you've also agreed to help me, which you have to do because you never break your contracts!"
Joe: "Uh, no. I'm going to capture you now."
Coil: ".....Crap."
 
I'm just bummed out that I don't have any friends I can nerdgasm over the latest chapter with. I started to try to convince one of my friends, but then realized I would need him to have read Worm. And that takes months. And then maybe read Worm fanfiction so he can realize how cool this BCF is. And then get into jumpchain fiction to appreciate the CF. And it's just so much. But BCF is sooooo good. D:
 
He's also counting on the "fact" that Ape Monkey Iron never breaks a contract for any reason, a side effect of his Mad Tinker classification that everyone "knows" to be true. He's might be thinking he can subvert The Undersiders to somehow sneak something into a contract, and once Joe agrees, Coil can then swoop in and be like:

Coil: "Because you agreed to this contract, which includes convoluted and/or vague language, you've also agreed to help me, which you have to do because you never break your contracts!"
Joe: "Uh, no. I'm going to capture you now."
Coil: ".....Crap."
It will be truly horrific once people realize that the only reason Joe keeps to his contracts is because it's the one thing people have clung to like a safety blanket to shield them from Big Scary Monkey Steel. The contracts exist only as far as Apeiron is still willing to give them the illusion of a weakness.

Then again, there is Strong Spark... man, if Joe gets that in the meeting, woo.
 
I have been hearing a lot about "strong spark perk" can someone explain what a spark abilities are and how it would make Joe more of a power house than he is already, since I am not familiar with girl genius.
 
Then again, there is Strong Spark... man, if Joe gets that in the meeting, woo.

Oh, man. If that happens, and Coil tries the contract shenanigans, then that conversation will probably go a bit differently.

Coil: "Because you agreed to this contract, which includes convoluted and/or vague language, you've also agreed to he-...Wait, why are you looking at me like that?"
Joe: "Sorry, were you trying to make me do something I don't want to do? I was thinking about all these new inventions I can do that require biological materials!! And look, I just so happen to have some spare biological materials right here trying to give me grief!!"
Coil: "GET OUT OF MY WAY ALL THE TIMELINES ARE PAINFUL THAT ISN'T SUPPOSED TO BE BEND LIKE THAT!!!!!!"
 
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I wonder if people may think the 'strategy trances' are actually seizures if they happen in front of them? Especially the big ones where the rest of his team is going mother hen on him during one.
 
I started to try to convince one of my friends, but then realized I would need him to have read Worm.

Definitely not. I've never read Worm, don't plan on it either. Just tell your friend to read a few chapters of BCF and see if they like the style.


A wiki-walk when characters were introduced (I mostly focused on powers, not background/spoilers) helped me a ton. I did go off the deep end a few times to try and understand canon plot, and that led to a period where I was pissed that Joe hadn't connected Aisha to Grue, but these things are minor and infrequent.
 
I have been hearing a lot about "strong spark perk" can someone explain what a spark abilities are and how it would make Joe more of a power house than he is already, since I am not familiar with girl genius.
Strong Spark is basically the codified Mad Scientist that people think Apeiron is. Joe will be able to utterly make reality do his bidding with his inventions, even more so than what he can already do, with added power-induced confidence and charisma of a cheesy Golden Age supervillain... except it will literally drive him insane the deeper he goes into a fugue, and like Worm Tinkers, he will need to go into a fugue from time to time or risk snapping and truly blowing things up to epic proportions.

Yeeeeeah, not exactly a fan of that, no matter what LordRoustabout says on how Joe could just learn to manage his fugues. The guy has enough mental issues without Strong Spark making things worse. And really, at that point, the biggest threat to Joe's goals would be himself and that's not exactly fun to read.
 
I have been hearing a lot about "strong spark perk" can someone explain what a spark abilities are and how it would make Joe more of a power house than he is already, since I am not familiar with girl genius.
Strong Spark sort of turns you into a mad scientist but it's usually overhyped on the madness side. WOG on Strong Spark.
I get the concern over this perk. I want to clarify, it's not going to suddenly turn Joe into a different character. The primary aspect of being a spark is the intelligence increase. He would be able to take in and process information much faster and build and design things he could never achieve before. There will be impacts on him, but those will still play out through Joe being Joe. It will be things like it being easier to get caught up in a project, enjoying work and discovery more, excitement about showing off his creations. Joe already feels these things to some extent, Spark will just amplify them.

The Madness Place is a more delicate issue. Right from the start Joe has Sei Ki, so spark mania will never be as bad as in a normal spark. The Madness Place isn't something that just happens, it takes effort to build up that energy. Phase 1 is nothing more than showmanship and grandstanding, and even Phase 2 can be managed. If you get to Phase 3 it's usually because you're up against something that you need to be in Phase 3 to handle. For context, in the previous fight, if Joe had the Spark he would have spent most of the fight in Phase 1. His duplicate would probably have gotten to Phase 2 when attacking Bakuda's lab, and you might have seen the same level of intensity when rescuing Chen. To hit phase 3 you would need the ambush and it's aftereffects. Nothing else could possible bring Joe to that level. If he was fighting in Phase 3 Joe would have countered Lung with some spark built mega-project rather than an FTL strike, probably to the same level of public concern.

Also note that being a spark and even entering the Madness Place doesn't destroy your morality. Agatha never unleashed horrors of abused innocent people even in the worst of her fugues. In fact, considering Joe's mentality part of his mania is probably going to be "and I'll do it without hurting ANYBODY!".
 
Strong Spark sort of turns you into a mad scientist but it's usually overhyped on the madness side. WOG on Strong Spark.
It's still a significant shift to his behavior. Basically it'll still make Joe a lot more bombastic than his usual serious approach to things, and Joe himself will not appreciate the change. Remember Joe's problems early on with how the Forge changes the very way he thinks? It's still that, but this time Joe is aware that the slippery slope exists. Sure, he won't slide into it because he will hold himself back from it getting that far, but the fact that the possibility is there will not be missed.

Of course, there's also the possibility that Strong Spark itself will give Joe the confidence and self-esteem to overcome that. But... that feels like cheating, as far as character development goes. The biggest thing that holds Joe back is his mental hang-ups, it defines his character, but a single perk will solve that for him? No, at any way I look at it, Strong Spark really is not worth it.
 
He's also counting on the "fact" that Ape Monkey Iron never breaks a contract for any reason, a side effect of his Mad Tinker classification that everyone "knows" to be true. He's might be thinking he can subvert The Undersiders to somehow sneak something into a contract, and once Joe agrees, Coil can then swoop in and be like:

Coil: "Because you agreed to this contract, which includes convoluted and/or vague language, you've also agreed to help me, which you have to do because you never break your contracts!"
Joe: "Uh, no. I'm going to capture you now."
Coil: ".....Crap."

Don't forget that he thinks Joe is scared of him because he keeps running away whenever they get into a confrontation in the sims.
 
It's still a significant shift to his behavior. Basically it'll still make Joe a lot more bombastic than his usual serious approach to things, and Joe himself will not appreciate the change. Remember Joe's problems early on with how the Forge changes the very way he thinks? It's still that, but this time Joe is aware that the slippery slope exists. Sure, he won't slide into it because he will hold himself back from it getting that far, but the fact that the possibility is there will not be missed.

Of course, there's also the possibility that Strong Spark itself will give Joe the confidence and self-esteem to overcome that. But... that feels like cheating, as far as character development goes. The biggest thing that holds Joe back is his mental hang-ups, it defines his character, but a single perk will solve that for him? No, at any way I look at it, Strong Spark really is not worth it.
I don't know, every time he goes out as Apeiron he showboats and acts bombastic/edgy, supposedly that is his true self. If the Madness Place only acts up due to challenges, and most of Joe's challenges are as Apeiron, it shouldn't really matter, just speed up the development he is already going through (and he is getting better so his mental hang-ups are becoming less and less of a thing).

The only thing I really see him drastically changing is how he interacts with his family, and honestly I would welcome that change. It is painful to watch them try and, well, "interact" may be the wrong word, talk past each other and abuse Joe is more accurate.
 
Don't forget that he thinks Joe is scared of him because he keeps running away whenever they get into a confrontation in the sims.

Man, all the different layers of what people think they know about Joe and what he will/can do. Is it wrong that I'm starting to think that I'm going to be disappointed if someone at Somer's isn't maimed/mentally scarred for the rest of their life? Aside from Tattletale, I mean :lol2:
 
It would be funny if a powerful spark combined with I Am Iron Man and made Joe closer to Tony Stark in terms of personality than to the villain of the Golden Age.
But there is also the main perk, experience and training of archmages and much more, as well as previous acquisitions. I wouldn't be surprised if Joe, at some point, sends everyone to hell and goes to meditate in the mountains.
 
I don't know, every time he goes out as Apeiron he showboats and acts bombastic/edgy, supposedly that is his true self. If the Madness Place only acts up due to challenges, and most of Joe's challenges are as Apeiron, it shouldn't really matter, just speed up the development he is already going through (and he is getting better so his mental hang-ups are becoming less and less of a thing).
That's the thing - it's the pathos that is lost. At this point we've literally seen Joe struggle with his self-confidence and self-expression, which makes all the few times he really lets loose that much more satisfying. When he finally learned to let loose and enjoy lava surfing, it was such a fun read because Joe really deserved that break. We've seen him slowly learn to be more happy with himself, even with all of the problems his powers and enemies bring to his doorstep.

And then there's Strong Spark. It's like reading someone's epic of conquering a labyrinth, and then suddenly he gets given a GPS. Where's the pathos in that, if he's suddenly a lot more confident and less restrained because his power literally just gave him the answer on a plate? Even if Strong Spark's fugues and Madness Place could be dealt with, it's still a big change.
 
Man, all the different layers of what people think they know about Joe and what he will/can do. Is it wrong that I'm starting to think that I'm going to be disappointed if someone at Somer's isn't maimed/mentally scarred for the rest of their life? Aside from Tattletale, I mean :lol2:

Worse, they will see Bonobo Tantalum act like a dad with the AIs (which will probably be miscrostrued as something else, maybe a cult leader), like a big bro for Tetra and Lethe, and like a Bro to Kataklyzm.

Just image of their reaction to Joe telling Aisha he will make her some gelatto if she cause no problem is amusing enough.

I mean, it worked for Taylor in canon, why wouldn't it work for Joe.
 
That's the thing - it's the pathos that is lost. At this point we've literally seen Joe struggle with his self-confidence and self-expression, which makes all the few times he really lets loose that much more satisfying. When he finally learned to let loose and enjoy lava surfing, it was such a fun read because Joe really deserved that break. We've seen him slowly learn to be more happy with himself, even with all of the problems his powers and enemies bring to his doorstep.

And then there's Strong Spark. It's like reading someone's epic of conquering a labyrinth, and then suddenly he gets given a GPS. Where's the pathos in that, if he's suddenly a lot more confident and less restrained because his power literally just gave him the answer on a plate? Even if Strong Spark's fugues and Madness Place could be dealt with, it's still a big change.
He has done all that stuff you said though? He has conquered the Labyrinth, and maybe I would agree if he was still inside, but he isn't. He has learned to relax. He has learned to accept self biotinkering. He has learned to accept using souls for tinkering. Etc.

To continue your analogy, he got lost in the Labyrinth, found his way out, is now in civilization, and you seem disappointed he still isn't in the Labyrinth? I would be disappointed if he never made progress or got out. Sure, this may all be a matter of opinion, but I believe there is value in the character growth shown and Joe has had enough growth that he can afford to be handed a GPS now that he is out of the Labyrinth.

A shame he never slew the Minotaur (his family problems) and just ran away from it, but I and many others found the Minotaur atrocious, and thus I find skipping it acceptable.

Looking back at my post, I believe this is ultimately a matter of opinion and that we are both correct in our own way. Then, if I have not convinced you, agree to disagree?
 
He has done all that stuff you said though? He has conquered the Labyrinth, and maybe I would agree if he was still inside, but he isn't. He has learned to relax. He has learned to accept self biotinkering. He has learned to accept using souls for tinkering. Etc.

To continue your analogy, he got lost in the Labyrinth, found his way out, is now in civilization, and you seem disappointed he still isn't in the Labyrinth? I would be disappointed if he never made progress or got out. Sure, this may all be a matter of opinion, but I believe there is value in the character growth shown and Joe has had enough growth that he can afford to be handed a GPS now that he is out of the Labyrinth.

A shame he never slew the Minotaur (his family problems) and just ran away from it, but I and many others found the Minotaur atrocious, and thus I find skipping it acceptable.

Looking back at my post, I believe this is ultimately a matter of opinion and that we are both correct in our own way. Then, if I have not convinced you, agree to disagree?

*stares into the air* ......Sorry, I read "labyrinth" so many times that it made me think Etrian Odyssey and wether or not Joe could make the version of the tree that is also a space ship.
 
Spidey_phd said:
Of course, Piggot would be freaking out that Apeiron had just provided all of the villainous capes of BB with free access to Protectorate ENE Headquarters
What? Why? I don't understand where this comes from.
I believe the thing Spidey_phd was referring to was a hypothetical anti-Leviathan item, some sort of thing that was either a rebreather or allowed breathing underwater. Thing is, the Protectorate/PRT HQ is an oil rig off the coast, so if the villains can breathe underwater due to Apeiron's anti-leviathan trinket, then they can sneak across the ocean floor to the Protectorate/PRT HQ.
AmberSlime is right about my train of thought. Ziggrrauglurr is correct in that such a perceived threat was only (possibly) implied and not explicitly discussed in the earlier chapters of the story.

I thought that the perceived threat to the PHQ was explicitly addressed in the chapters immediately following Weld's retrieval but I did not find the remembered discussion in a quick review of the chapters.

A long time ago (in a dimension far, far away), in the chapters immediately after Apeiron fished Weld out of the bay there were several addendums in which various members of the Protectorate, Wards, PRT, etc. were discussing the evil and diabolical new Tinker/Shaker/Thinker/Master Apeiron and his nefarious plans.

I believe it was in a discussion between Miss Militia and Piggot that it was suggested that Apeiron was the Timing Thinker (rather than Marche). It was suggested that Apeiron's planning and subtle manipulations had resulted in-
1) the dramatic implosion of New Wave (removing a large group of heroes at a critical time),
2) the quarantine of Panacea in an M/S tank (which left several of the bays most important capes disabled due to injuries),
3) conflict between Brockton's PRT and the national PRT organization as a whole (particularly neighboring Boston), and
4) dramatically impaired the local Protectorate and Wards (Dean and Carlos shipped out. Flechette and Weld shipped in but not trusting nor loyal to the local organization. Increased Youth Guard oversight and meddling.).

At the same time, Missy/Vista's mental "Fuck Mammon" rant included the complaint that Apeiron must have already created aquatic technology prior to the ABB attack on the Rig which dumped Weld into the water "because tinkers did not work that quickly".

The Protectorate ENE Headquarters, or PHQ, was a refitted oil rig which served as a floating base of operations. It was described as beautiful, a marvel of architectural design with futuristic towers and arches, accessible by a forcefield roadway, and protected by a forcefield bubble and a missile defense system. The PHQ was supposedly a powerful and comforting symbol of the squadron of Protectorate Capes which protected the bay, as well as a safe retreat/fortress for the heroes (If I recall canon correct, prior to Skitter destabilizing the city the PHQ had never been attacked or even seriously threated.).

I guess my faulty memory combined "Apeiron is attacking and undermining the Protectorate whose headquarters is floating in the bay" and "Damnit, Apeiron has created aquatic/submersible equipment" into a certain paranoid PRT leader believing that "Apeiron has equipped himself in order to attack PHQ".
 
IIRC it was in a Dauntless' POV where he mentions that there is no way Apeiron could have made a sub-aquatic so quickly, and that people where freaking out about why he made it, with attacking the PHQ being one of those.

EDIT: Vista's was more bitching about hating her costume while Flechette was given the go ahead to mod her's with Garment's cape (and that it admitedly looked pretty cool), about not being allowed to Cape as much as she wanted (coping mechanism), and then becoming friendlier with GG.
 
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IIRC it was in a Dauntless' POV where he mentions that there is no way Apeiron could have made a sub-aquatic so quickly, and that people where freaking out about why he made it, with attacking the PHQ being one of those.
I skimmed every scene with Dauntless since he found out Weld had been recovered, and didn't find any such statement.
 
I skimmed every scene with Dauntless since he found out Weld had been recovered, and didn't find any such statement.
I think Mesaprom just mixed scenes up. It was Joe himself who was concerned that the Protectorate might see the underwater tech he used to rescue Weld and go paranoid enough to devote already limited resources into defending from the water as opposed to fixing the problems in the bay. In the meantime, Dauntless' interlude had been more on how Dauntless felt that the Protectorate was overestimating Apeiron (false), putting too much attention on him (true), and underestimating March (true).
 
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