Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)

(I'm seriously beginning to wonder if Joe is just Ace, because how else could a college student have an inner dialogue so completely devoid of the concept of romantic relationships?)
I think you're thinking Aro/Aromantic rather than Ace/Asexual. I think Joe's given some indication he has attraction, but honestly yeah him being aro kinda fits.
At this point, I really can't see why Lisa hasn't just asked Joe to shelter her in his workshop while he tracks down and kills Coil with what info she provides. Joe has rapid response across Brockton Bay with suits that could comfortably fight an endbringer at this point. He has a Survey. Coil is so outgunned he's pointing his finger and saying 'bang', and Lisa knows it.
I think she's leveraging her position to try to get data & control over Coil's org, not to mention wanting to figure out his power and shutting down his contingencies. I feel it's gonna happen soon, but the wait makes sense. Parahumans are not generally speaking mentally healthy. She wants to know, and to use her knowledge for something she sees as good.
I just wish Joe would realize he already outclasses every threat barring the Endbringers and Scion, step off the upgrade treadmill for a little while and get some proactive use out of that tech of his.
He kinda knows this, but he's still vulnerable to Ziz. The moment he gets OCP the gloves are off though.
 
Please keep in mind that two persons can remember a certain event and remember 2 things completely different, emotions, stress, hormones, past trauma, a lot of things can color an event and a memory causing totally different experiences and memories.- I always bring up The Dress because it's a perfect example in recent memory of people watching a thing at the same time, having the difference being extremely easily describable (the color) and still have people having totally different experiences, furthermore, arguing about it.

This is so true. Another ting about memory is that Every time you remember an event from the past, your brain networks change in ways that can alter the later recall of the event. Thus, the next time you remember it, you might recall not the original event but what you remembered the previous time.

So recalling a memory is like the telephone game where people take turns whispering a message into the ear of the next person in line? By the time the last person speaks it out loud, the message has radically changed. It's been altered with each retelling.

I don't know if I read this somewhere, if someone said it or if I'm remembering this wrong , but this can be summarized in this:
"There's four sides to a story: What he said, what she said, the truth and what everyone else is going to believe regardless of facts."
I think it fits.
Edit: Here's the true quote:
"There are always four sides to a story: your side, their side, the truth and what really happened." — Jean-Jacques Rousseau

There are several ways to interpret this situation. Personally, I believe that it is a communication issue, likely stemming from cultural differences. Sabah probably tried to tell Joe 'no', but in a way that made sense for her but not him. Joe likely didn't pick this up. Like LR said, it doesn't make it less damaging, but it does make it less damming. Both people could have been trying to act properly in this situation, but ended up causing issues.

Not sure if that will make sense for everyone.

Anyway, this topic has been discussed long enough, lets start a new one. What POV do you want to see other than Joe next?

For me, besides the PHO option and the obvious Chubster meme, I'd like to see a POV from Lisa or Rachel. They are the only undersiders we haven't had a POV from yet.
 
Was there actually any Word of God from LordRoustabout about whether Brockton's Celestial Forge is Canon Compliant or an Alternate Universe?

Because while Sabah apparently clearly stated no from her perspective, Joe is (or at least was shown to be in near every chapter) social competent enough to be able to recognize a somewhat clear No. Cultural differences do exist, but with something as important as this was Sabah would have given it some serious thought to 1. make the rejection clear even in Modern Western Culture (given that the language Barrier would have seriously hammered the existence of Difference in Cultures in) and 2. ensure that the fallout is minor enough that her studies would not suffer much.
Sabah's Reaccounting of the Situation makes it clearly seem like Joe was just a pushy asshole who had to be publicly rejected to finally stop only to then discredit her afterwards.
On the other Sides Joe's Reaccounting makes Sabah look like a lying Bitch who led him on to profit from him and publicly made a Scene when he finally spoke plainly. And maybe it is only my extreme Personal Distaste and near Hatred for lying Scum (at least when they lie about minor inconveniences), but I'd more likely trust Joe's Reaccounting considering his Environment, Personality and Therapy all encourage looking at past behavior (and thus his Reaccounting would me more accurate) and analyzing it even if the first one only encourages finding the eventual root of all problems solely at Joe's Feet. Yes Joe could have handled the situation better, but to compare a somewhat socially challenged Person with someone who isn't speaking either truthfully and or plainly and then blows up when they have to speak directly is just confusing to me.




You can't lie by implication. Furthermore Alena did not ask for personal Information on his friend and argued/patronized with arguments that ranged from "Joe are you sure you aren't being used" to "Joe you are highly likely being a bother to your Friend", this is not any sort of argumentation she is just trying to get him home or contact his Mother with any means necessary even if they contradict each other.
I'd also have to disagree with "Pretty much everything he is trying to imply by ... is not true".
He isn't available at his home (IIRC he is sitting in a disguised closet in Garment's Shop)
He isn't in any immediate Danger (he is potentially the most secure Person on the Planet bar Scion)
He has pressing concerns in the following hours and days (a near vital Therapy Session along with a City redefining Villain Meeting)
He has a friend to look after (this is more semantical by simply him using Singular while it is Plural, but ensuring Taylor's Safety along with the Undersiders can literally safe the world or of some moderate villainous Teenage criminals)
So every information that IS actually important for his family was correct.

Joe is the most powerful Parahuman in existence, has literally infinite Potential and could potentially fix every Problem on Earth Bet IF he just has the time to actually handle them. He simply does not have the time for something as trivial as the Validation of 3 (maybe 4 with his unknown father) somewhat blood-related humans and while I normally do not condone lying this is one of the few cases where the full truth would have simply heaped one problem after another (not to forget the near certainty of Joe's Family ratting him out to the PRT fOr HiS oWn SAfEtItY) on Joe.
So simply telling the Truth (as I mentioned above he did for the important Info), but simply NOT fully opening up about his entire Situation to his abusive Family is not only the practical Option it is also the right option.
In terms of Alternative Universe, the closest thing is the Knig of Arms, Joe's original shard, Lord has actually tries to make the story as cannon compliant as possible, though he has stated that years of Fannon may have come in just due to how it's hard to be removed from.

And the story even does a bit of a analysis of how fanon is compared to how the story was originally, as the passager and it's emotional responses are based of it.

On terms of how Sabah and Joe remember things, I am just going to use the Dream House as my example of a story that deals with people having differing memories.
 
Anyway, this topic has been discussed long enough, lets start a new one. What POV do you want to see other than Joe next?

For me, besides the PHO option and the obvious Chubster meme, I'd like to see a POV from Lisa or Rachel. They are the only undersiders we haven't had a POV from yet.
Ok this is crazy, and very unlikely, but I'd be interested in how Apeiron's actions are echoing out in Boston, through Alena. On a more likely note, seeing Crystal Pelham's perspective would be interesting. Triumph is her BF iirc, and he was at Ground Zero. Also would get onto how New Wave are doing, possibly also how Vicky and Amy are holding up. Also any communications the PRT are having with independent heroes on the Shenanigens.

Alternativley seeing Skidmark or Scrub's view of things before going into Somer's Rock would be pretty nice.
 
What POV do you want to see other than Joe next?
For me I want a pov from a dog, maybe the avid glove or garment.
(Author note: Would have liked to close out the workshop portion in this chapter, but it didn't work out. We'll be getting out to Brockton Bay next chapter, including dealing with the gym, Undersiders, and Flechette while heading into Joe's next therapy session. Still enjoying getting back to my old pace of writing and not stressing over inter-chapter pacing. Also thank to everyone who offered their support and encounagement after my last author's note.)

So the probable next chapter would be therapy time.
 
The only exceptions to that area are when the plot continues to be held back by a) People refusing to give him a level of trust that would be sensible for their relationship, and b) Joe's absolute, utter obliviousness to the existence of romantic attraction in anyone for anyone.

(I'm seriously beginning to wonder if Joe is just Ace, because how else could a college student have an inner dialogue so completely devoid of the concept of romantic relationships?)
Or perhaps his experience with Parian has basically traumatized him enough to not expect romantic affection in any case? Because Joe has no issues showing friendly or even familial affection, despite his experience with his family, but will absolutely not look at situation and think "That's romantic love" until somebody says it straight out for him.

And even then, he might question if the other person is messing with him.
At this point, I really can't see why Lisa hasn't just asked Joe to shelter her in his workshop while he tracks down and kills Coil with what info she provides. Joe has rapid response across Brockton Bay with suits that could comfortably fight an endbringer at this point. He has a Survey. Coil is so outgunned he's pointing his finger and saying 'bang', and Lisa knows it.
The issue is on Lisa's side, and the sad fact is? Lisa probably cannot trust Joe because she can't figure him out. When she thinks she finally has a grasp of his character and abilities, he keeps showing new sides and keeps throwing new superpowers. And you have to understand that Lisa is a bit of a control freak. This is a direct result of her trigger - of how her not knowing things has led to disaster for her and someone she cared for - and unlike Taylor, who had the dubious advantage of reminding Lisa of her brother, Joe has no such issues.

Despite his social and familial problems, Joe actually has things mostly figured out for himself and was already on the mend after moving out of his house and striking out for himself. With no tendencies to remind Lisa of her brother and a frustrating ability to make her look like an idiot every step of the way, Lisa just doesn't trust Joe. Sure, she knows that Joe is a good person, but she feels uncomfortable of the idea of how Joe might react if he finds out what she knows. (Remember how she practically begged Joe to not do anything, multiple times?) That is the entire point of why Lisa keeps hiding things from Joe - Lisa can't read him, so she will be very cautious of him.
 
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OCP specifically only counters precogs not named Coil. Thinkers like Lisa will still work on Joe, all of the other things that he does and has to mess with Thinkers notwithstanding.
The perk speficaly states, plot level precog, does that mean very precog, what about a precog that can see 4 seconds into the future, is that plot level? Diahan yes, hunch, maybe, the butchers danger sense?
 
The perk speficaly states, plot level precog, does that mean very precog, what about a precog that can see 4 seconds into the future, is that plot level? Diahan yes, hunch, maybe, the butchers danger sense?
Outside Context Problem (Worm) (Free)
It'd be boring if you were to just die right at the start so for free you'll have a selective immunity to the powers of a few rather nasty plot device level opponents that by all rights would probably want to kill you right out of the gate. Contessa, Ziz, and Zion's precog doesn't seem to be able to pick you up, instead returning a zero-sum error whenever they try to force the issue. They won't notice this until you garner enough attention for them to try and then they might take further measures to see what the problem is. But at the moment you'll be safe from being instantly killed due to the threat you pose to their plans. This works on all shard/entity derived precog. Your peculiar inter-dimensional nature just messes up their ability to predict you. Coil is an exception due to the weird nature of his power.


I have marked the relevant parts red. It should work on all precognitives.

But not all Thinkers are precogs. Most famously Tattletale isn't. She only extrapolates. Mostly well, but sometimes wrong.
 
But not all Thinkers are precogs. Most famously Tattletale isn't. She only extrapolates. Mostly well, but sometimes wrong.
Yep. For example, after Taylor figured out bug senses, she bacame, by definition, at least mid-tier Thinker, since she almost omniscient with a few blocks radius around herself. Enhanced/extra senses counts too, like improved eyesight of Legend, or Gallant's "emotion sight".
Basically, "Thinker" rating is "that cape can have info that normal person could've get". That doesn't really matter why they can notice assault teams before normal person could - precognition, clairvoyance or enhanced hearing. If you're after them, you have to assume you can't rely on surprise.
After all, that's a threat classification. People grabbed it and ran with it, tried to classify powers with these classes, but that doesn't always fit or even make sense.
 
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Or perhaps his experience with Parian has basically traumatized him enough to not expect romantic affection in any case? Because Joe has no issues showing friendly or even familial affection, despite his experience with his family, but will absolutely not look at situation and think "That's romantic love" until somebody says it straight out for him.

I'm not just talking about other people being attracted to Joe, though. He seems utterly unable to recognize romantic attraction period. The prime example is Flechette for Garment, but there have been others.
 
God I can't wait for OCP or EE to be rolled cause everyone's just gonna hit the godzilla threshold reaaall quick. WoG says that C and PRT are not full defcon because Ape's still precogable, once that's outta way shit bricks will break fans and windows
 
On the Ace/Aro discussion, I want to put a vote on Joe being a mostly normal heterosexual male, except that he has been damaged so much by his family and by the Sabah situation that he ends in the depressing situation where "Don't bother thinking of X having desires or feelings for me because no one would ever love me because I'm a total failure of a person"

Think that the Sabah debacle basically confirmed everything his family always said about him.
(I was writing about how since he thinks of Garment as a friend and non-human person, he has troubles imagining someone having romantic feelings for her) BUT I think what Joe has is the absolute inverse of a Gay-dar, he knows on intellectual level someone can be homosexual or some other orientation, and he has no problems at all, but he will never realize by himself. We have 2 and a half instances, Sabah, Flechette and March in her civilian persona (she was so obviously Yuri for Flechette that it hurt).-

So I say that you have 2 situations, 1.- Joe thinks that he is not worthy of real loving attention of anyone .- 2.- He is completely oblivious to non-straight shipping.
 
I think you're thinking Aro/Aromantic rather than Ace/Asexual. I think Joe's given some indication he has attraction, but honestly yeah him being aro kinda fits.
as an Aroace: I Have thought that I was into someone before. I headcanon Joe's thing with Sabah as a comp-het thing. like "i think this girl is pretty, i have no reason to believe i could be anything other than straight, therefore i Must be in love with them"
 
Read: "If this story isn't perfectly canon compliant Sabah could be a liar, and I despise liars so I will trust the account of a dude who was wearing rose-tinted glasses who later acknowledged he fucked up in the situation, and declare that he did nothing wrong."
It's already kinda been stated, but I don't think you can really trust either recounting. Only when examining both perspectives can you try to piece together what exactly happened.

I don't know who you mean wears rose-tintend glasses.
If it's me then yeah obviously I read upwards to near 1 million words of Joe and People reacting to Joe which made his humility, desire for no confrontation and general desire to not inconvenience most people clear despite being literally godlike in some aspects, while I have not read the entirety of Worm (which IIRC does not even in its Entirety reach 1 Million Words) of which Sabah is quite the Small Part, so it is quite hard to distance myself and view it all with a neutral viewpoint when Joe's Current Action do not at all reflect the caustic behavior Sabah describes in Canon.
If it's Joe you mean then HOW? He was raised by an abusive female dominated household who treat him like a dog in all but name is an introvert and has been stated to view his past actions as worse than they actually were, so if anything Joe sees Sabah's Action with rose-tinted glasses and disproportionally blames himself for it all especially after Sabah made her Regret clear a few weeks later.

To the latter point I never stated that Joe did nothing wrong. He could have confronted her somewhere more private, explain his situation a bit clearer (as in explain that he was trying to be polite and subtle in asking out before but wants a clear yes or no before they can continue their relationship/friendship) and probably a number of things that I do not want to speculate on given the sparse information on the event itself. What I did note however was that comparing Joe's somewhat more social and impolite Mistakes in accounting for the general Desire for Privacy when People talk about their feelings and other minor inconveniences to the fact that Sabah near definitely Lied to his Face multiple Times and blows up on him when he wants a clear answer is not understandable to ME, those are 2 entirely different "classes" of Mistakes. Both could have handled the situation better but that's true in pretty much every Situation ever. Rarely do People make absolutely no mistakes.

Besides that this isn't a court case where you need to hear both sides to approach a somewhat truthful recounting of what happened. Yes people view the past, especially traumatic experiences, differently, but this IS in the End a very good written story, if the author given Information is false everything that was written has to be reevaluated for it's truthfulness and I don't think BCF is that kind of story.


Worth noting; This fic takes place several years after the event between Joe and Sabah, and Joe explicitly recognized that he did wrong there and has been working on improving himself in that time. We also know that Joe only went for the final attempt because a friend talked him into it.

Also: The idea that rejecting some pushy asshole is important enough to put 'serious thought' into for either of those things is a tall order, and the idea that "minimizing fallout" was something that Sabah intentionally thought out in the pushy-asshole-rejection is discredited by her later very public rejection.

As I stated before given his home environment it is unlikely that Joe would view a possibly(?) older female in a worse than they actually are and more likely give himself less Credit than he deserves.

Also: Given the fact that Joe wasn't a pushy asshole but a nice guy who in her eyes connected being nice to something more and simultaneously was one of her if not the closest contact she had on campus which taught in a language she had severe problems with pushing him away from her would not be a light decision given the potential of becoming a social outcast (at least in that course) and even destroying her further options for studying. Secondly her very public rejection was 1. Joe's Choice of Location given that he confronted her and 2. given her later apology was not something she wanted to do and was simply an emotional outburst.

In terms of Alternative Universe, the closest thing is the Knig of Arms, Joe's original shard, Lord has actually tries to make the story as cannon compliant as possible, though he has stated that years of Fannon may have come in just due to how it's hard to be removed from.

And the story even does a bit of a analysis of how fanon is compared to how the story was originally, as the passager and it's emotional responses are based of it.

On terms of how Sabah and Joe remember things, I am just going to use the Dream House as my example of a story that deals with people having differing memories.

What does exactly constitute as canon compliant as possible? What motivates our Lord and Saviour enough to change it? How much did Fanon affect him (as far as I know Worm has a huge but subtle discrepancy between Fanon and Canon, for example the Dragon of Kyushu was never actually used as a Title for Lung in Canon)?
What is Dream House? That name does not remind me of anything.
 
as an Aroace: I Have thought that I was into someone before. I headcanon Joe's thing with Sabah as a comp-het thing. like "i think this girl is pretty, i have no reason to believe i could be anything other than straight, therefore i Must be in love with them"

I'd like to add that everything has degrees, he might have degrees of aro/ace, perhaps natural, or perhaps because of his upbringing.
 
Just chipping in on this debate, but I don't think Joe is romantic or asexual, I think his general obliviousness to romantic or sexual attraction most likely comes from a few places. Firstly, his major league fuck up with Sabah and secondly, his view of his self-worth. The first one is obvious, he doesn't want to screw up like that again, so if he was to ever get romantic/sexual feelings like that again he'd probably go through a rigorous, possibly insane, process trying to confirm if the other person feels the same way. The second one probably comes from his family, namely his mother and sisters thinking he's nothing but a chronic fuck up, thus imposing that view of himself onto Joe. Meaning that even if someone was to show interest in him, Joe'd still probably take the long way to confirm they weren't just messing with him. That's with stuff like the Dragon's Pulse, Divine Pyrokinesis, Telepathy and Empathic abilities from XCom Psionics (yes, they exist, Chimera Squad confirmed it) supporting their statement.

On the topic of Joe not seeing Flechette's attraction to Garment, I mainly think that it's a case of Joe wanting to avoid the entire arena of cape shipping, especially after he and Taylor were shipped together in the most convoluted love story to hit PHO. That, and I don't think he's altogether too comfortable with thinking about a possible romantic relationship between a pair of sentient gloves and a teenager.
 
He kinda knows this, but he's still vulnerable to Ziz. The moment he gets OCP the gloves are off though.
Can anyone tell me if it's fanon or canon that Ziz fucks with your brain by effecting it physically with micro-telekinesis? If it's canon than Joe's fashion power plus lathe metal might protect him. Not that he'd know it would protect him. And of course, the future sight would still be the main issue.

I think I've worked off this assumption before, but I'm all of a sudden getting the sense that that level of telekinesis might not make sense for the Simurgh to have given Wildbow talking about what would happen if the Endbringers went all out. Though I'll admit I've never read those posts directly.
 
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I'm not just talking about other people being attracted to Joe, though. He seems utterly unable to recognize romantic attraction period. The prime example is Flechette for Garment, but there have been others.
It still comes from the same source. For someone that came from a public fiasco involving assumptions of romance, will that someone be willing to assume for others as well, especially considering Joe's stance of not causing problems for others as much as possible?

Simply put, Joe doesn't even consider romance as a possible explanation anymore, because the last time he did that the thing with Sabah happened. Sure he knows that it is a possibility, but the thought is so far away from him that he doesn't even think of it.
 
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