Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)

Koraan · Sep 4, 2021

Daym said:
Well yes, depends on how strong her "mastering" ability is on those who are not desperate and on someone who is actively trying their best to ignore other opinions.

She known as "Contessa-lite" for a reason. So, I think her "pseudo-mastering" ability is good enough to pull it. Well, maybe not against an enemy who don't want to listen to her at all. But against someone who relied on her to make a plan? I doubt that was too hard for her.

Daym said:
I think the last chapter has shown Surveys over preparedness in terms of threats.

Indeed. I had no doubts about their capabilities, only about their willingness. And latest chapter gave us answer about it.
That mean, they'll have at worst a couple of minutes of forewarning from "suspiciously high level of message exchange between suspected E88 members".

The Shallow · Sep 4, 2021

Koraan said:
Not to say that Joe was completely blameless. But I see that situation as result of Sabah's actions and decisions at least as much as Joe's.
First reason:
Aisha with one brief contact figured that Joe is harmless. She is exceptionally good at reading people, you may point. Yes, indeed she is. But Joe and Sabah knew each other for, iirk, almost two years to That Point. As @The Shallow said, that been only one year. Even if he remember things better than me, a year of almost everyday contacts should be enough time for not completely socially inept person to learn what exceptionally good "reader" gets from a brief not-really-even-conversation.
And I don't believe Joe have changed that much between these two points.
So. Either she was just as much socially inept as Joe believes he is or even more (and thus since you blames Joe for being unable to decipher hints, that's fair to blame her for same, we're lives in the society of gender equality, after all), or she knew he's a decent person, and still had her outburst (in that case, my guess that Joe's actions wasn't the only reason for her outburst, most likely correct).

I've dug into the matter; they basically didn't know each other at all.

Joe's Account - Chapter 1 Introduction said:
"Ok, there was this girl who had transferred from math to engineering in sophomore year."

"Really. What was her name?"

"Sabah." Doug raised an eyebrow. "She was Iraqi. Really good at math but her English wasn't perfect. That gave her some trouble with parts of the course work. I helped her out with that."

Sabah's Account - 21.y Interlude Parian said:
She'd taken math courses, focusing on engineering after her first year, because they had been the subjects she'd found easiest in her transition to an English high school. She'd been okay with it, not happy but not miserable, but still, she hadn't had a person to confide in. She'd stuck it out on her own, quietly uncomfortable with where she was in every sense of the word, unwilling to burden her family with her relatively minor issues.

Being a girl in a male-dominated field, she'd drawn attention from one student. A boy. He'd been nice, but he'd also been under the impression that being nice demanded reciprocation, as though every action deserved an equal and appropriate reaction from her.

So no, you can't blame Sabah for not knowing him to not be a complete ass.

Koraan said:
Second reason:
If his actions maked her "uncomfortable that they blow up like that", and there were no other reasons for it, she should've at least tried to do something about it earlier.
If she thought Joe is an asshole enough to held her academics hostage, there was zero reason to think he'll just stop suddenly without either her, or an outside force, acting to stop him. And any outside force had no reason to intervene with that unless she'd ask them.
Taylor, when bullying started, at least tried to talk with a staff about it. That didn't helped her, but we all know that she was in wastly different situation.

And once again I shall point to what Sabah said:

21.y Interlude Parian said:
He was always interested in talking to her, and her more demure rejections had had no effect.

She tried a clear 'no', and it didn't work. He'd gone away for a few days, then came back, making another casual hint about them maybe going out.

She tried a harsh no, laced with all the anger and frustration she'd been feeling, and she got labeled a 'bitch'. The other students, friends or acquaintances of her would-be-paramour, wound up hearing and turned on her. Her schoolwork started to suffer, because she didn't have the study groups, nobody willing to work with her on projects and presentations.

It wasn't like she didn't try to get him to leave her alone. What the fuck would getting the staff involved do if not just cause a similar push-back?
Big problem in this situation is power dynamics. Joe is on good terms with almost everyone in the program. Sabah is basically an outsider. That social power produced her not trying to piss him off, as to not piss off his friends/others in the study group, which failed because the situation ended up boiling over.

Koraan said:
Am I the only one who see the contradiction here?

Direct and Subtle are not synonyms. He wasn't quite saying "can you go out on a date with me?", he was going about it in a kinda roundabout way, not that his intention wasn't obvious to Sabah.

Koraan said:
I don't sure he actually have his ID:

Time Coil didn't have, because at first he was busy with preparations for kidnapping Dinah, and soon after that March happened. Also, Coil could've, at most, used an identikit, instead of a proper photo or video record, because his merc unmasked Apeiron in a timeline he dropped.
So, he may know the civilian identity of Apeiron, the Enigmatic Artificer. But that's a likely possibility, not certainty.

Thanks for the info.

Logos01 said:
These people cannot be cured; they are a poison that infests everything.

Yeah, it's basically impossible for a narcissist to accept that they have flaws, so good luck ever getting one to change, sadly.

Knaka · Sep 4, 2021

Hm, I was going to quote something here, but I can't find it.

Anyway, have an omake.

XXX

Interdimensional Television

As he put the finishing touches on his masterpiece, Joe couldn't help but smile. He stepped back and took in the large television in front of him. This, this would change everything.

After learning about the source of his powers, Joe had tried to use media sources to help develop his abilities. Despite the awkwardness of copying TV shows and cartoons, he had made great strides in his skills. However, there was a problem. It seemed that most of the abilities didn't exactly line up with the shows he watched. For some reason, his abilities seemed to be slightly different. This proved a major obstacle until Joe realized he had a solution to this. The same solution that saved him from precog attempts.

Simple Scientific Solution was a fantastic power. Despite being limited to household applications, it was immensely powerful. As long as it involved a household issue, Simple Scientific Solution could handle it. And watching television was a household issue. With this television, Joe could watch any show that existed. He could even stretch things and use a filter that only gave him media that was relevant to his powers. With how vast the multiverse was, there had to be some show that matched up with his powers, infinite monkeys and all that.

Now for the moment of truth, Joe turned on the TV and started the first show. Surprisingly, it turned out to be a Bond movie, one he had already seen. Well, at least that confirms that the interdimensional TV worked. Skipping ahead to the next set of shows, Joe watched the title screen.

"Teen Titans, huh? Looks a little interesting, but not sure how this fits with my power."

Joe watched an episode of the show, but couldn't figure out how it related to his powers. Deciding to try again, he skipped to the next set of shows. The next one was a movie.

After finishing the movie 'Firefly' Joe was once again confused. It definitely had a lot of futuristic tech in it, but nothing that seemed to line up with his powers. At least it was interesting. Deciding to give the TV another try he started on the next set of shows. After watching a few episodes of that show, Joe grew frustrated.

"All right, what the hell is this? 'Death Clocks'? A 'What If Machine'? Frickin 'Finglongers'? Did the TV backfire without me realizing it?"

Holding back a sigh, Joe decided that this project would have to be shelved for now. It had potential, but would probably require a lot of work. Too much for his timeframe. Idly, Joe noticed his duplication potion had expired while he was watching TV. Joe called Survey through his implant and asked her to meet him with a fresh potion. As Joe left the room, he felt the Knowledge constellation approach him. A giant mote swung toward him and his power latched on to it. Joe stood completely still as the power washed over him. A moment later, he exclaimed in complete shock.

"Are you kidding me? The 'Finglonger' is actually a thing?"

Jumpchain abilities this omake:

Inventor (Futurama) 600:
You are a brilliant (if eccentric) Inventor. You can (within reason) create nearly anything you can imagine if you put in the time. You have a cabinet full of doomsday devices and would be more than capable of slapping together Reverse Scuba Suits for fish or Death Clocks.

Mourning Glory · Sep 4, 2021

Wog from Ao3

I never got the sense from readthroughs that Taylor's family was at all religious, and her father will probably be neck deep in reconstruction efforts, so any family dinner plans will be shelved. There might be some significance given to Joe making his first public appearance on Easter Sunday after being seriously injured and missing for three days (lol).

So, if Joe is now confirmed Jesus, does that make his parents God
If so
No wonder Worm is fucked.

RegiDelta · Sep 4, 2021

Mourning Glory said:
Wog from Ao3

So, if Joe is now confirmed Jesus, does that make his parents God
If so
No wonder Worm is fucked.

Oh my! Another ting Apeiron, The Enigmatic Artificer did accidentally. Joe did something with the souls of the dead didn't he the ones he got from hell another accidental connection.

Oh no, there's going to be a cult of Apeiron, The Enigmatic Artificer I can just see it. People are going to think that Apeiron, The Enigmatic Artificer is a god or trying to make a message with it.

Koraan said:
She known as "Contessa-lite" for a reason. So, I think her "pseudo-mastering" ability is good enough to pull it. Well, maybe not against an enemy who don't want to listen to her at all. But against someone who relied on her to make a plan? I doubt that was too hard for her.

So your saying that she has a speech of 100 and the charisma of 10

TitanFrost · Sep 4, 2021

RegiDelta said:
Oh my! Another ting Apeiron, The Enigmatic Artificer did accidentally. Joe did something with the souls of the dead didn't he the ones he got from hell another accidental connection.

Oh no, there's going to be a cult of Apeiron, The Enigmatic Artificer I can just see it. People are going to think that Apeiron, The Enigmatic Artificer is a god or trying to make a message with it.

I'd believe it, but only once he starts feeling more like an unstoppable force than a powerful human being to the outside world. Same logic as Endbringer cults, though hopefully less depressing.

Phyrexia Unbound · Sep 4, 2021

Man the synergy with "They call me 'Starlord' " is gonna be funny.

Koraan · Sep 4, 2021

The Shallow said:
I've dug into the matter; they basically didn't know each other at all.
...
So no, you can't blame Sabah for not knowing him to not be a complete ass.

I still think that finding out that Joe is a doormat doesn't take too long. And none of the quotes suggests that on the point of outburst she knew him for less than several months.
So no - I can and do blame her for not knowing he's not a complete ass.

The Shallow said:
And once again I shall point to what Sabah said:

21.y Interlude Parian said:

She tried a clear 'no', and it didn't work.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Canonically - maybe. And I said that canon "unnamed asshole" might be indeed an asshole who really just pretended that he don't understand hints and held her academic hostage. But that's not the case here, in BCF:

LordRoustabout said:
"And one thing led to another?"

"Not exactly. We spent a lot of time together but it never really went further. I suggested stuff but she was always really demure about it, like a whole bunch of non-answers and putting things off."

"That was probably a hint."

That stung. "Yeah, I got that in hindsight."

"So what happened?"

"It wasn't going well, but one of my friends convinced me to give it another try, just ask directly and put it behind me."

So - no, here she didn't tried a clear 'no'.

The Shallow said:
Direct and Subtle are not synonyms.

Indeed. But in that situation meanings are close enough (from my point of view), that it looks like your arguments for me and for Rathanel clashing with each other. As I said, maybe that's just me. Since English isn't my native, sometimes I may miss or missunderstand "shades" of meaning of a word that obvious for everyone who live in English-speaking society.

Knaka said:
Interdimensional Television

That omake is to funny to not give it that reaction, but I have to say that if that'd be possible to give a post more than one reaction, I'd add "Insightful" as well.

AntaeusTheGiant · Sep 4, 2021

RegiDelta said:
Oh no, there's going to be a cult of Apeiron, The Enigmatic Artificer I can just see it. People are going to think that Apeiron, The Enigmatic Artificer is a god or trying to make a message with it.

This should certainly be encouraged, though Jozef doesn't know why yet. It will be tremendously useful when he gets the Demigod Atelier perk, since that's about the only way to power it until he gets the supporting perks in the Capstone Constellation. Plus, since Demigod Atelier itself is buried in the Knowledge domain, there should be plenty of time for the cult to grow to useful dimensions...

Koraan · Sep 4, 2021

RegiDelta said:
So your saying that she has a speech of 100 and the charisma of 10

Kinda. More like she ~~have~~ had a perk that allowed her to act like she have Speech 100 in certain situations.
"Time to speak with Lung about 'our' (my) plan". "Time to tell him offhandedly that reputation is important". "Time to look at him with exasperation". And so on and so forth.

Defaulter · Sep 4, 2021

Finally, I've caught up to the thread ^^!

The Shallow · Sep 4, 2021

Koraan said:
I still think that finding out that Joe is a doormat doesn't take too long. And none of the quotes suggests that on the point of outburst she knew him for less than several months.
So no - I can and do blame her for not knowing he's not a complete ass.

Koraan said:
Canonically - maybe. And I said that canon "unnamed asshole" might be indeed an asshole who really just pretended that he don't understand hints and held her academic hostage. But that's not the case here, in BCF:

So - no, here she didn't tried a clear 'no'.

You know, I brought up both accounts because 1. Those are just Joe and Sabah's recollections of the events 2. We have no reason to think that BCF retcons Sabah's recollection; the only divergances are those caused by Joe gaining the Forge.
Joe simply said things "weren't going good". Sabah thought she was clear, Joe didn't seem to fully get it, but was giving her space. Those few days where he left her alone did occur before his friend told him to give it one last try. In Joe's perspective he said he asked clearly, but to Sabbah he was as clear as any other time. We also know Joe is bad at romance, so he might have clearly gotten that she was saying "No, I don't want to date you", instead seeing it as a firm "No thanks, please stop talking to me."

Koraan said:
Indeed. But in that situation meanings are close enough (from my point of view), that it looks like your arguments for me and for Rathanel clashing with each other. As I said, maybe that's just me. Since English isn't my native, sometimes I may miss or missunderstand "shades" of meaning of a word that obvious for everyone who live in English-speaking society.

I can see that. Let me clarify; Responding to you, I was detailing reasons that might have put her on edge outside of a period or her father falling ill. With Rathaniel I was talking about why she didn't try to go clearer, specifically relating to not want to rock the boat, although after rereading her perspective it seems she did try eventually.

AntaeusTheGiant · Sep 4, 2021

Well, I've been trying to avoid getting into the whole Sabah vs. Joe issue, but let's look again at this quote:

She tried a harsh no, laced with all the anger and frustration she'd been feeling, and she got labeled a 'bitch'. The other students, friends or acquaintances of her would-be-paramour, wound up hearing and turned on her.

So, was it Jozef himself who labeled her a bitch, or his friends? The "wound up hearing" line indicates that it wasn't his friends who were doing the labeling, which really just leaves Jozef himself. If that is indeed the case, if he called her a bitch for turning him down harshly after already trying to turn him down subtly, then yes, Jozef was in the wrong in that case and should have apologized immediately, and considering its affects still owes her one should he see her again. Words have power and responsible people should own that power. If Jozef was not the one who labeled her a bitch, then he should have at the very least set the person(s) who did so straight at the time as well, but I really think from the wording Wildbow was just trying to be creative in saying it was, indeed, Jozef (actually unnamed asshole in this case) who called Sabah a bitch.

JamesRick29 · Sep 4, 2021

AntaeusTheGiant said:
but I really think from the wording Wildbow was just trying to be creative in saying it was, indeed, Jozef (actually unnamed asshole in this case) who called Sabah a bitch.

…I don't think so, especially when the quote clearly states it wasn't Joe at all, and that people heard, which resulted in them calling her a bitch. There's no indication it was even him. Heck even Lord himself did a better deeper analyses on it that indicated Joe didn't do it at all, especially with canon, why are you making an assumption that he was one that did it despite it being clearly stated it wasn't like that?. There are people like Joe in IRL that have difficult time taking a hint because they lack social awareness at times(speaking from experience with a friend)

If Jozef was not the one who labeled her a bitch, then he should have at the very least set the person(s) who did so straight at the time as well,

How? If the people that heard then aren't his friends or whatever, then what is supposed to do when the rumor already spread that quickly and can't do nothing about it.

Edit: Also where does unnamed asshole come from?

Koraan · Sep 4, 2021

The Shallow said:
Joe simply said things "weren't going good". Sabah thought she was clear, Joe didn't seem to fully get it, but was giving her space. Those few days where he left her alone did occur before his friend told him to give it one last try. In Joe's perspective he said he asked clearly, but to Sabbah he was as clear as any other time. We also know Joe is bad at romance, so he might have clearly gotten that she was saying "No, I don't want to date you", instead seeing it as a firm "No thanks, please stop talking to me."

"We also know Joe is bad at romance" is complicated. Joe indeed not good at understanding hints and noticing signs. But also we can both agree that he not as bad with "social stuff" in general as he thought of himself.
I doubt he'd misunderstood something clear and direct as "No, I don't want to date you".

On the other hand, after I thought about it, you kinda have a point here.
Cultural differences is a thing, so "clear 'no'" for, let's say, Japanese, wouldn't be seen as such by anyone but another Japanese. At least one of my acquaintances once mentioned that in Japan, businessmen often negotiate in English even between their fellow Japanese, just to be able to express their position clearly and unambiguously.
So, yes, that's possible that "clear 'no'" in Sabah's interpretation is something like "Sorry, but I'm really, really busy for foreseeable future". :thonk:

edit 2:
On the yet another hand, could you really blame Joe for not getting her hints, if her "clear 'no'" was something like that?
edit 2 end

edit:

AntaeusTheGiant said:
So, was it Jozef himself who labeled her a bitch, or his friends? The "wound up hearing" line indicates that it wasn't his friends who were doing the labeling, which really just leaves Jozef himself.

At least here, in BCF, it happened in public, and there were enough witnesses:

LordRoustabout said:
"Uh, so I tried and it went bad. She tore into me and we had words. It was public and messy and I figured that was it."

And I really doubt he started the rumors. I suspect that happened because everyone knew that Joe is a doormat and pushover, so her acting like that seemingly out of nowhere... Welp.

Cheetored20 · Sep 4, 2021

AntaeusTheGiant said:
Well, I've been trying to avoid getting into the whole Sabah vs. Joe issue, but let's look again at this quote:

So, was it Jozef himself who labeled her a bitch, or his friends? The "wound up hearing" line indicates that it wasn't his friends who were doing the labeling, which really just leaves Jozef himself. If that is indeed the case, if he called her a bitch for turning him down harshly after already trying to turn him down subtly, then yes, Jozef was in the wrong in that case and should have apologized immediately, and considering its affects still owes her one should he see her again. Words have power and responsible people should own that power. If Jozef was not the one who labeled her a bitch, then he should have at the very least set the person(s) who did so straight at the time as well, but I really think from the wording Wildbow was just trying to be creative in saying it was, indeed, Jozef (actually unnamed asshole in this case) who called Sabah a bitch.

Could be eavesdroppers.

supermou3ad · Sep 4, 2021

hey, shower thoughts here but since a great deal of the story focuses on leveraging/combining/munchkining the powers, what combination of perks would allow joe to create a PTV-like effect/power.

I know it can never be done in the story since it would lessen the stakes of any conflict and would make the only way to keep the story engaging shift from can he win to what impressive/cunning plan will be put into action especially since if we assume it can be done it won't have the artificially set restrictions.

Still, it's a fun concept to think about

S. Shortcake · Sep 4, 2021

AntaeusTheGiant said:
So, was it Jozef himself who labeled her a bitch, or his friends? The "wound up hearing" line indicates that it wasn't his friends who were doing the labeling, which really just leaves Jozef himself. If that is indeed the case, if he called her a bitch for turning him down harshly after already trying to turn him down subtly, then yes, Jozef was in the wrong in that case and should have apologized immediately, and considering its affects still owes her one should he see her again. Words have power and responsible people should own that power. If Jozef was not the one who labeled her a bitch, then he should have at the very least set the person(s) who did so straight at the time as well, but I really think from the wording Wildbow was just trying to be creative in saying it was, indeed, Jozef (actually unnamed asshole in this case) who called Sabah a bitch.

Cheetored20 said:
Could be eavesdroppers.

From what I understand based on Joe's accounts and Sabah's excerpt, it likely really wasn't Joe that got her socially isolated.

Joe seems really unlikely to lash out and call anyone a 'bitch', let alone a female (given his particular family background and trauma). In fact, I thought that Joe basically just let Sabah snap at him and then basically slunk off beating himself up for so much as inconveniencing her. He's been doing better as of late, but Joe has practically been brainwashed to take shit from the women in his life. Also, Joe has been called many things, but vindictive or spiteful never came up.

The idea of it being an eavesdropper or bystander sounds more likely.

Joe did make that last attempt on another friend's advice and given his general passivity/timidity it might not have been impossible that there was someone discretely keeping an eye on a good (if somewhat awkward) friend on from the sidelines, only to see the other party cut into said friend. Or for the adviser to later catch Joe in a guilty self-flagellant funk and get upset on his behalf.

Another thing that might have happened is that Sabah really might have not communicated her disinterest well at all.

The implication that she couldn't speak English well enough and had to rely on Joe for a decent period of time, a significant cultural difference, added onto him just naturally not understanding a lot of social cues could have caused a major misunderstanding between not just Joe and herself, but all the other people in the department.

I'm not saying that she hadn't been seriously dropping hints from the start. In her perspective, she likely really was being blatant, but that just might not have come off as strongly as she had wanted it to, given the very different perspective of the other party.

(Sabah was a first generation immigrant from the Middle-East, wasn't she?

I'm not sure how big of a divergence occured in Bet, but I think that she likely came from a far more conservative background where, as a female, she couldn't be forward or frank when communicating with males. In comes Joe, from a vastly different set of circumstances and was trained to be a doormat to more aggressive women...

...I'm not surprised that they got to such an explosive point.)

The Shallow · Sep 4, 2021

Daxus1120 said:
How? If the people that heard then aren't his friends or whatever, then what is supposed to do when the rumor already spread that quickly and can't do nothing about it.

There was only 25 people in the Engineering Program, and Joe knew them all, and was at least on friendly terms with all of them. He could've said something to those people.

Koraan said:
"We also know Joe is bad at romance" is complicated. Joe indeed not good at understanding hints and noticing signs. But also we can both agree that he not as bad with "social stuff" in general as he thought of himself.
I doubt he'd misunderstood something clear and direct as "No, I don't want to date you".

On the other hand, after I thought about it, you kinda have a point here.
Cultural differences is a thing, so "clear 'no'" for, let's say, Japanese, wouldn't be seen as such by anyone but another Japanese. At least one of my acquaintances once mentioned that in Japan, businessmen often negotiate in English even between their fellow Japanese, just to be able to express their position clearly and unambiguously.
So, yes, that's possible that "clear 'no'" in Sabah's interpretation is something like "Sorry, but I'm really, really busy for foreseeable future".
edit 2:
On the yet another hand, could you really blame Joe for not getting her hints, if her "clear 'no'" was something like that?

Well, we don't know exactly what she said. She could've said "Just leave me alone.", which could mean "I never want to talk to you again." or "I'm not in the mood to talk right now."
From my understanding, Joe took it as the first, and left her alone, but his friend told him to give it one last try, to get a clear yes or no.

S. Shortcake said:
Another thing that might have happened is that Sabah really might have not communicated her disinterest well at all.

The implication that she couldn't speak English well enough and had to rely on Joe for a decent period of time, a significant cultural difference, added onto him just naturally not understanding a lot of social cues could have caused a major misunderstanding between not just Joe and herself, but all the other people in the department.

I'm not saying that she hadn't been seriously dropping hints from the start. In her perspective, she likely really was being blatant, but that just might not have come off as strongly as she had wanted it to, given the very different perspective of the other party.

Ultimatley yeah we only have the two perspectives. Miscommunication was clearly the case, but to what level it fell on either party isn't entirely clear.

S. Shortcake said:
(Sabah was a first generation immigrant from the Middle-East, wasn't she?

I'm not sure how big of a divergence occured in Bet, but I think that she likely came from a far more conservative background where, as a female, she couldn't be forward or frank when communicating with males. In comes Joe, from a vastly different set of circumstances and was trained to be a doormat to more aggressive women...

...I'm not surprised that they got to such an explosive point.)

Yep. Seeing as Divergances only really started in the late 80s, it's safe to say that Sabah was raised in a sexist environment, even if she moved to BB when she was 14.

Chronocidal · Sep 4, 2021

I know that Joe's surname, "Duris", is of French origin, but does anyone recall if we have any details on his ethnicity? (Lots of former slaves were given European surnames and stripped of their own — hence why Malcolm X changed his surname from "Little" to "X", to signify that he did not know what his family's original name was — and ethnicities mix over generations, so the name doesn't particularly give any clue)

Because, if he's white… You'd have a foreign, lesbian (whether or not that was actually known by anyone) girl turning down a white guy in a town with literal Nazi's who would love to have a (however fabricated) excuse to insult/denigrate her, and present themselves as "friendly" to recruit a new member.

And, regardless of his ethnicity, there's the typical incel response of calling girls who turn them down lesbians (usually with more of a slur than that) — again, in a town of Nazis. Not exactly somewhere that a foreigner with little in the way of a support network want to get outed, even falsely. Turning Joe down might then cause a lot of stress/anxiety in Sabah from his possible/potential actions, contributing towards her trigger event.

JamesRick29 · Sep 4, 2021

The Shallow said:
There was only 25 people in the Engineering Program, and Joe knew them all, and was at least on friendly terms with all of them. He could've said something to those people.

But would it have made a difference? Rumors can spread fast even if you try to stop them

Chronocidal said:
Sabah from his possible/potential actions, contributing towards her trigger event.

That isn't how Sabah trigger, she trigger because of Eventually, Sabah's father suffered a terminal heart attack.

Maelger · Sep 4, 2021

supermou3ad said:
hey, shower thoughts here but since a great deal of the story focuses on leveraging/combining/munchkining the powers, what combination of perks would allow joe to create a PTV-like effect/power.

I know it can never be done in the story since it would lessen the stakes of any conflict and would make the only way to keep the story engaging shift from can he win to what impressive/cunning plan will be put into action especially since if we assume it can be done it won't have the artificially set restrictions.

Still, it's a fun concept to think about

He has already laid down the foundations of Path to Victory with the ZERO system Fleet used in the MechaBasketball match. Shards supposedly use calculations and simulation for the precog stuff and once it's refined in a spiritron computer without needing two AIs working in concert you get what is basically the protoshard version.

The Shallow · Sep 4, 2021

Chronocidal said:
I know that Joe's surname, "Duris", is of French origin, but does anyone recall if we have any details on his ethnicity? (Lots of former slaves were given European surnames and stripped of their own — hence why Malcolm X changed his surname from "Little" to "X", to signify that he did not know what his family's original name was — and ethnicities mix over generations, so the name doesn't particularly give any clue)

Because, if he's white… You'd have a foreign, lesbian (whether or not that was actually known by anyone) girl turning down a white guy in a town with literal Nazi's who would love to have a (however fabricated) excuse to insult/denigrate her, and present themselves as "friendly" to recruit a new member.

And, regardless of his ethnicity, there's the typical incel response of calling girls who turn them down lesbians (usually with more of a slur than that) — again, in a town of Nazis. Not exactly somewhere that a foreigner with little in the way of a support network want to get outed, even falsely. Turning Joe down might then cause a lot of stress/anxiety in Sabah from his possible/potential actions, contributing towards her trigger event.

Based on Lord's descriptions and seeing as Kayden and Kreig were okay with him, I'm gonna say he is white.

Daxus1120 said:
But would it have made a difference? Rumors can spread fast even if you try to stop them

It would've. Maybe it wouldn't fix everything, but she could've gotten unblacklisted sooner, as she did when she apologized. Also most the people who caused her trouble were people Joe knew:

21.y Interlude Parian said:
The other students, friends or acquaintances of her would-be-paramour, wound up hearing and turned on her. Her schoolwork started to suffer, because she didn't have the study groups, nobody willing to work with her on projects and presentations.

Daxus1120 said:
That isn't how Sabah trigger, she trigger because of Eventually, Sabah's father suffered a terminal heart attack.

The stress Joe caused her is canonically part of the reason she triggered.

21.y Interlude Parian said:
It only served to put her right back where she'd been before, dreading going to class and dealing with him. Always with that vague fear that he'd escalate, that he'd start sending her emails or phoning her.

And because of the way she'd done it, she'd burned a bridge. She couldn't defuse the relationship with a statement to the effect of, 'I don't like boys.' He would have seen it as another manipulation, and she couldn't have managed if she were cut off again.

Her father's terminal heart attack had been another straw on the camel's back. Alone, it was nothing, but in combination with everything else… Sabah had triggered on what was only one in a long string of nights spent alone, stewing in frustration, fear and anger in her dorm room. She'd glimpsed something bigger, something that was beyond her recall now, and she'd gained her powers.

Graviator · Sep 4, 2021

S. Shortcake said:
Joe seems really unlikely to lash out and call anyone a 'bitch', let alone a female (given his particular family background and trauma). In fact, I thought that Joe basically just let Sabah snap at him and then basically slunk off beating himself up for so much as inconveniencing her.

I could see one circumstance where he would - if she innocently said something that's also a catchphrase of one of his family members.

TitanFrost · Sep 4, 2021

Maelger said:
He has already laid down the foundations of Path to Victory with the ZERO system Fleet used in the MechaBasketball match. Shards supposedly use calculations and simulation for the precog stuff and once it's refined in a spiritron computer without needing two AIs working in concert you get what is basically the protoshard version.

Didn't Lord state in a recent response to Coil discussion that he doesn't think it makes much sense for Shard precog to only work on simulation, and there's probably some weirder shit going on?

Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)

Shallow, Yet Deep

Child of Gaea

Shallow, Yet Deep

Child of Gaea

Shallow, Yet Deep

Shallow, Yet Deep