Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)

I'd agree with you. But Coil has kidnapped a child and drugged her up. All he needs to do is off Coil from the board. No one will notice why would anyone need to know anything. Coil is too secretive. His disappearance wouldn't be known for a while. If Coil who has clearly broken the rule by kidnapping a child who isn't even a cape. Then those rules don't apply to him and should be offed as a minor convenience. Like swatting a fly from a wall. The moment Dinah is known to Joe Coil is dead. And the fact Lisa knows about Dinah just makes me not like her more
Remember, it's Worm Canon that Coil has a bunch of contingencies and deadman's switches in play. At the very least, if Coil gets removed from the board then a couple of days later the identities if E88 get released, with forged evidence that the Undersiders were responsible, and Echidna is unleashed on the city.

Coil is stereotypical Bond Villain material, even if his secret base doesn't quite live up to Apeiron's. Joe seems to be picking up inklings of this, and is somewhat genre savvy, but it's his Passenger who is mostly aware of all of that, and giving the "hold off!" alert.
 
Also I feel like it should be stated again that this fic's timeline is super short. Worm, already on a short timespan wrt pacing, took about... maybe 110-120K words to go from April 10th to the Somer's Rock meeting. This 1M words and 68 chapters has had very little time for anybody to... do, things. I know, it's pointed out even in story, the whole 'three-day tech' meme, but seriously consider that. Three days, making tech, making advancements to the tech, throwing the tech out and making it all over again, but making the gear doesn't actually mean he's done anything. You put your bins out with larger gaps of time than Joe has had to consider about hitting Coil.
 
Also I feel like it should be stated again that this fic's timeline is super short. Worm, already on a short timespan wrt pacing, took about... maybe 110-120K words to go from April 10th to the Somer's Rock meeting. This 1M words and 68 chapters has had very little time for anybody to... do, things. I know, it's pointed out even in story, the whole 'three-day tech' meme, but seriously consider that. Three days, making tech, making advancements to the tech, throwing the tech out and making it all over again, but making the gear doesn't actually mean he's done anything. You put your bins out with larger gaps of time than Joe has had to consider about hitting Coil.
I know about the short time gap. But I'm still mad about Lisa not telling Joe about Dinah. At least if Joe knows he would plan to get rid of Coil of the map
 
Remember, it's Worm Canon that Coil has a bunch of contingencies and deadman's switches in play. At the very least, if Coil gets removed from the board then a couple of days later the identities if E88 get released, with forged evidence that the Undersiders were responsible, and Echidna is unleashed on the city.

Coil is stereotypical Bond Villain material, even if his secret base doesn't quite live up to Apeiron's. Joe seems to be picking up inklings of this, and is somewhat genre savvy, but it's his Passenger who is mostly aware of all of that, and giving the "hold off!" alert.
I would be surprised if Coil hasn't also added Apeiron, The Enigmatic Artificer's identity to his list. He could also have a contingency to send the Travellers on a job on the other side of the city while Noelle is released, causing more chaos. This also doesn't include any possible actions from his mercs, who could all fuck with capes fighting noelle, all without knowing their boss isn't around anymore, and without being in too much danger. Also could use Circus, Trainwreck, Faultline's crew and other merc capes to cause more fuckery. With the Dragonslayers in the city, using stolen Dragon/Armsmaster/Kid Win/Maybe even Uppercrust or Leet tech is a serious possibility, barring his own tinkertech laser connections.

Coil's solution to his death is to Scorch the Earth, then Salt it for good measure.
 
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I know about the short time gap. But I'm still mad about Lisa not telling Joe about Dinah. At least if Joe knows he would plan to get rid of Coil of the map
Imagine telling somebody you've known for a week and a half about an incredibly serious detail, that would likely send them roaring off to fight the person with a metaphorical gun to your head, who you don't know the specific abilities of. She'd be gambling on the ability of a guy who's been on the cape scene for two weeks.
 
Imagine telling somebody you've known for a week and a half about an incredibly serious detail, that would likely send them roaring off to fight the person with a metaphorical gun to your head, who you don't know the specific abilities of. She'd be gambling on the ability of a guy who's been on the cape scene for two weeks.
Also yeah 3-day-old tech is a serious thing. He's blown up quickly in power, how likely is he to overestimate himself?
 
So, do correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it interesting how, in the time between his fight with March and Somer's Rock, Apherion got his Efficiency Perk? Because in the event that Joe decides to let it run when he's there, well... we do know it's kind of obvious, even if it's hard to pinpoint exactly what is going on.

So Apherion is badly hurt, he takes a break, and he appears two days later, oddly efficient. Almost... robot-like. *wiggles eyebrows*
 
So Apherion is badly hurt, he takes a break, and he appears two days later, oddly efficient. Almost... robot-like. *wiggles eyebrows*
Nice one I didn't think of that so they would think that he's a robot or gone cyborg most likely cyborg because Apeiron, The Enigmatic Artificer did get 'A Thing About Names (Fallen London)' so when he introduces him self they would know that he is Apeiron, The Enigmatic Artificer.
 
Imagine telling somebody you've known for a week and a half about an incredibly serious detail, that would likely send them roaring off to fight the person with a metaphorical gun to your head, who you don't know the specific abilities of. She'd be gambling on the ability of a guy who's been on the cape scene for two weeks.
But Lisa knows Coil's power though...

Lisa not knowing his power is fanon.

She's gambling on the guy capable of offing the ABB while he was just taking a walk. Well canon ABB anyway because Match is bullshit.
 
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I nodded. The power was called Panzerkampf, or tank combat, in rough translation. Setting aside the unfortunate German naming of the ability considering the current gang situation, it was a quite useful power, if not quite a groundbreaking one.

Essentially, every war machine I constructed would be top notch by default. Guns would never jam and vehicles would function perfectly. What set it apart was how far that effect extended. For instance, if I built a tank it would never get bogged down, no matter how bad the conditions and IEDs would be incapable of damaging it. The only way to destroy or impair my vehicles would be through concentrated direct action. Anything less than my opponent's best efforts would be shrugged off.
Ah, so completely ahistorical then. :rofl:
 
Ignorance isn't an excuse to make someone so uncomfortable that they blow up like that.
Excuse me, but I can't agree with that statement. For example, word "gunna" (variation of "gonna", from "going to") irritates me. As far as I know, there's no logical reason.
That mean, if I'd forced to constantly been around a person who uses it, sooner or later there would be outburst. But would it be their fault? Not unless I'd explained the situation to them, and they'd keep doing it anyway, without even trying to moderate it (since, you know, it's hard to quickly change how you speaks).
We can push buttons of people around us with completely mundane and natural actions. For everything I know, there's a person that just dislike the sound of my voice somewhere. Would it be my fault that I talking around them?
Not to say that Joe was completely blameless. But I see that situation as result of Sabah's actions and decisions at least as much as Joe's.
First reason:
Aisha with one brief contact figured that Joe is harmless. She is exceptionally good at reading people, you may point. Yes, indeed she is. But Joe and Sabah knew each other for, iirk, almost two years to That Point. As @The Shallow said, that been only one year. Even if he remember things better than me, a year of almost everyday contacts should be enough time for not completely socially inept person to learn what exceptionally good "reader" gets from a brief not-really-even-conversation.
And I don't believe Joe have changed that much between these two points.
So. Either she was just as much socially inept as Joe believes he is or even more (and thus since you blames Joe for being unable to decipher hints, that's fair to blame her for same, we're lives in the society of gender equality, after all), or she knew he's a decent person, and still had her outburst (in that case, my guess that Joe's actions wasn't the only reason for her outburst, most likely correct).

Second reason:
If his actions maked her "uncomfortable that they blow up like that", and there were no other reasons for it, she should've at least tried to do something about it earlier.
If she thought Joe is an asshole enough to held her academics hostage, there was zero reason to think he'll just stop suddenly without either her, or an outside force, acting to stop him. And any outside force had no reason to intervene with that unless she'd ask them.
Taylor, when bullying started, at least tried to talk with a staff about it. That didn't helped her, but we all know that she was in wastly different situation.

this seems especially sexist to bring up in the context of a women being ostracized for expressing anger toward a man.
Sorry to hear that, but I don't care, in this case, what the consequences of her actions were. I care about the reasons. And, as I explained above, unless she had serious case of social ineptness, she should've knew Joe enough to understand that he wouldn't do anything like using her academics as a hostage. And that suggests that there were additional factors in play.
Period is one of possible explanations, because like it or no, but menstrual cycle controlled by hormones. And hormones affect our emotions. That's just facts.
Most of women during period are emotionally unstable to some extent. To what extent is another question. Some lucky ones not even notices it, while some being highly affected. Exact direction varies too. For some it's increased irritability, for others - sadness, etc. A pain and bleeding that not insignificant part of women experience during it adds to their bad mood too.
I don't think that disregarding a possible explanation just because it "seems sexist" is right.
Second possibility, that I mentioned as well, is her father illness.
There's of course many more options, like maybe she been rejected recently by someone. Or maybe... We can guess about it forever without any more facts from either canon or fic.
 
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She has suspicions, but I'm pretty sure she doesn't actually work out the proper details until after Leviathan hits in canon?
In Canon around the time of the Villain meeting when asked if she knows Coil's power Lisa says "Can't say" not "don't know". That's something Lisa herself brings up later in canon when Taylor accuses Lisa of lying because she wasn't lying. She's just unlikeable
 
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Heck prior to the Lung fight I was wondering whether the story was a sneaky deconstruction of the CYOA genre where the protagonist's power actually isn't that capable, it's more flash and style over substance, a Chunibyo power if you would and when they had to deal with some of the upper tier powers in worm it would show its limitations. So I had to reevaluate and recognise that it's more that Joe's own uncertainties and neuroses greatly limit the actions he wishes to take despite his rather ludicrous capability. Assuming his self assessment of his own abilities is accurate, he is at this point by pretty much any metric laughably unstoppable. Nothing prevents him from producing and launching Dragon tier suits, the kind that in setting pretty much everyone gives due respect to, once an hour. I mean if he pushed himself, he probably could create a factory that creates factories that create suits that would take Dragon the better part of a century to develop in five days, if we're being very conservative and then spend the weekend watching a literal army of them each pick a major city on Bet and declare that it's there to act as support to local law enforcement. He could just hole himself up in his lab and flip the board.
This is all part of the semi-mythological mystique of the Simurgh, and to a lesser degree bowing to the past deeds and capabilities of current S-Class threats and not wanting to dismiss entities that have been a problem for national teams of Parahumans and government agencies for decades.

If March being able to, by Fiat, just lead Apeiron into an almost guaranteed kill scenario but merely not being able to seal the deal because her power fudges from unPathable adjustments the Forge makes whenever Joe gains a new Perk, the Simurgh could tap-dance around the upper reaches of Joe's capabilities by just finding the one critical weak point in existence and skipping everything extraneous. Can't beat Joe AND show off at the same time? Secretly kidnap the perfect combination of Tinkers (with Tinker tech being Xenotech with apparently very high-tier capabilities when not extremely limited by Shard mechanics) to construct a device with great targeting capabilities, great scanning capabilities and an Annihilator-effect payload. Then construct the perfect scenario for Joe to be hit by it. And no hints of her behavior because she can use her TK from upper orbit on the planet itself, so she can behave as if situation is normal as usual while prepping.

This is just what an OOC perspective would think up, not the even more absurdly paranoid mind who holds up the likes of Sphere in hero worship and thus has even more reason to fixate on her than any of the other myriad threats, only the Simurgh's greatest asset is her ability to get people reluctant to do anything about her except quarantining anything she comes into contact with, because people (and the author) aren't going to be 'smarter' than the evil Rube Goldberg genius.
 
Remember, it's Worm Canon that Coil has a bunch of contingencies and deadman's switches in play. At the very least, if Coil gets removed from the board then a couple of days later the identities if E88 get released, with forged evidence that the Undersiders were responsible, and Echidna is unleashed on the city.

Coil is stereotypical Bond Villain material, even if his secret base doesn't quite live up to Apeiron's. Joe seems to be picking up inklings of this, and is somewhat genre savvy, but it's his Passenger who is mostly aware of all of that, and giving the "hold off!" alert.
Doesn't help that Coil has more pull on the Travelers since he has "access" to Apeiron, and so there's a very real and tangible hope that's proven powerful and with amazing healing technology. Of course, it's also an opportunity for Joe to turn the Travelers on Coil, since they need Apeiron, not him.
 
Doesn't help that Coil has more pull on the Travelers since he has "access" to Apeiron, and so there's a very real and tangible hope that's proven powerful and with amazing healing technology. Of course, it's also an opportunity for Joe to turn the Travelers on Coil, since they need Apeiron, not him.
My guess is Coil is going to play his Trump card... lying.
 
@The Shallow I thought I don't have anything to say to you that not covered by my reply to TitanFrost where I mentioned you. But there is one thing:
Or maybe he keeps asking her out in a pretty unsubtle way?
...
The thing is Joe was trying to get things started and was being rather indirect himself
Am I the only one who see the contradiction here?

To other matters:
Nothing prevents him from producing and launching Dragon tier suits, the kind that in setting pretty much everyone gives due respect to, once an hour.
Nothing but too high quality and speed of his work, you mean. :V
And I mean really - he can't work an hour on one suit. He's uncapable of building things that slow.

I would be surprised if Coil hasn't also added Apeiron, The Enigmatic Artificer's identity to his list.
I don't sure he actually have his ID:
Thomas remembered his first attempt at interrogating the boy. A throwaway timeline had been used to check the tinker's touted durability. Whatever it was capable of in combat it failed to help him against a high velocity sniper round fired through the windshield of the van as he pulled out of the Undersiders base. Well, not completely failed. His head remained largely intact, which was something of note. Unfortunately the tinker had the sense to not carry anything identifiable with him on that particular endeavor. His men had found nothing but a pittance of loose cash and a key ring.

It was frustrating, but his identity was hardly secure. Between the information Tattletale had provided and searches of local records every aspect of his life would be uncovered within a few days, if not sooner.
Time Coil didn't have, because at first he was busy with preparations for kidnapping Dinah, and soon after that March happened. Also, Coil could've, at most, used an identikit, instead of a proper photo or video record, because his merc unmasked Apeiron in a timeline he dropped.
So, he may know the civilian identity of Apeiron, the Enigmatic Artificer. But that's a likely possibility, not certainty.
 
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If coil Did unmask Apeiron, would Joe's civilian identity gain the 'A thing about names' effect?
I'm also really interested in seeing the reactions of people who know him to learning that he's Apeiron, the Enigmatic Artificer. The gym folks, his family, Sabah, etc. Maybe even Danny Hebert, if he was familiar with any of Annette's students or had visited her at work or something.
 
"You want mom to stop calling you for me Alena?, tell her I stopped answering you're calls."

The end.
When I cut off all contact with my mother after certain things happened, I had to also inform the rest of my family that if any of them relayed so much as a single message from her that they would also be cut off.

My sister didn't quite get the memo, but after blocking her calls for six months after the first offense she realized I wasn't joking around.

To this day my mother doesn't, I am told, understand why I cut her off. (Or so I gathered from a couple years ago when she used an unknown phone number to try to contact me and I didn't recognize her voice for the first few seconds of the voicemail.) Despite destroying thousands of dollars of my property, sabotaging my career prospects, and repeatedly attempting to convince my then girlfriend that I was cheating on her in order to break the two of us up.

These people cannot be cured; they are a poison that infests everything.

That "It's not all about you!" line? That hit home like a wrecking ball. I'm /intimately/ familiar with it.
 
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Point. Presenting your idea to your boss like that his idea - not a new trick, though. And I think if March wanted, she could've played it without any problem.

Well yes, depends on how strong her "mastering" ability is on those who are not desperate and on someone who is actively trying their best to ignore other opinions. Despite Lung's Power everyone knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that without Bakuda and March and maybe even Oni Lee they would not have stood a chance against Apeiron. At this Point I am quite sure that Lung would haven taken serious action without any outside advice to influence him to properly restore the image of him as the SOLE Leader of the ABB. After the defeat of Apeiron his reputation was liable to be overshadowed by Bakuda or March's for being the one's to actually kill him.

No invasion at all? :thonk: Just tracking things like "person A sent a message to person B" is already a pretty deep intrusion, even without looking at the contents of that message.
But even if he'd be willing to go all most the way down with eavesdropping every call and reading every message, I doubt it'll be easy for him and Survey to figure what's up before the start. Because people, today, constantly calls and exchange messages. Including things like "I'm ready" and "Where the John?".
Everyone who saw the record of his "dialogue" with March and Bakuda know that he can track "mundane" communications, and willing to do it at least when he need too "dumpster fire of logistic" and so on). So they won't discuss their plans over the phone or Internet (at least I'd won't do something so stupid if I'd have any option to avoid it).
Joe and Survey can notice that something is up, shortly before said "something" would start, but I doubt more than that... Unless they willing to go even furher (though even that not really all the way down) - with hacking every device in the city to remotely activate microphones to listen to what is happening nearby. Although, on that point, swarm of stealth spy drones would be more convenuent.

I think the last chapter has shown Surveys over preparedness in terms of threats. Considering that she monitored Alena I would not doubt that the amount of processing power (which is frightening huge due to Cybertonium) she dedicated to prevent another serious Threat would be enough to cover any Brockton Bay transmission. The only weakness I see is Survey's Ability to actually recognize Code Words or prepared Phrases for things that have been previously discussed, though even in the event that she misses it she would be able to monitor the ongoing communications.
I think Bakuda's Jammers prevented Joe from finding out about Oni Lee's Strike as that would definitely require some serious coordination.

Well, that seems a language/sense thing. For me, something like meeting a friend you didn't expect to be (wherever we accidentally meet) can be called surprise. Something like "a person who can't teleport suddenly can" - definitely counts as one. Do your native language have different words for different grades of surprise unexpected situations?

Yeah I think that was a bit too pedantically and yeah my native language is practically characterized by the fact that we have a word for everything.

That's fair point. But on the other hand, money and chance to say something like "our tech allowed our client to successfully fled the Apeiron, the Enigmatic Artificer, himself"! Not a bad advertisement.

As I said that seems like a far too distant hope to achieve. The chance that their tech their pride and joy they have been slaving over for the last weeks will be completely and utterly dissembled critiqued and harshly judged by the godlike Enigmatic Artificer himself is so high that the I think Tinkers would spare themselves the Reputation loss.


To add to that I have to say that I once again love the difference between Joe and normal Capes. Other Parahuman are so preoccupied by maintaining an image and their Reputation that they would weaken themselves while Apeiron, the Enigmatic Artificer can just stroll through the City without ever even considering Reputation and still see a Reputation Improvement and only needs to maintain an Image so others are LESS fearful of him not more.
 
As I said that seems like a far too distant hope to achieve. The chance that their tech their pride and joy they have been slaving over for the last weeks will be completely and utterly dissembled critiqued and harshly judged by the godlike Enigmatic Artificer himself is so high that the I think Tinkers would spare themselves the Reputation loss.
it is because Apeiron is so powerful that a harsh critique or judgement from him is essentially meaningless - the difference between Apeiron-tech and Low-grade tinkertech is essentially the same as the difference between Apeiron-tech and a toaster.
Being able to use the tech to escape Apeiron Is worth the harsh breakdown, as far as advertising goes.

Although I just realized that since Tinkertech Is, at the core of it, Technology that operates on the rules of Earth Bet, that his academic teaching power would allow him to teach people how to make Bet-brand tinkertech that he reverse-engineers. Which could create a problem for people who intend to advertise their tech by facing off against and then escaping from Apeiron with it - everybody gangsta until Apeiron releases a youtube tutorial on how to build your un-patented tinkertech with nothing but household ingredients.
 
it is because Apeiron is so powerful that a harsh critique or judgement from him is essentially meaningless - the difference between Apeiron-tech and Low-grade tinkertech is essentially the same as the difference between Apeiron-tech and a toaster.
Being able to use the tech to escape Apeiron Is worth the harsh breakdown, as far as advertising goes.

Although I just realized that since Tinkertech Is, at the core of it, Technology that operates on the rules of Earth Bet, that his academic teaching power would allow him to teach people how to make Bet-brand tinkertech that he reverse-engineers. Which could create a problem for people who intend to advertise their tech by facing off against and then escaping from Apeiron with it - everybody gangsta until Apeiron releases a youtube tutorial on how to build your un-patented tinkertech with nothing but household ingredients.
We'll, except in any case where the Shard is doing vital work behind the scenes. Energizing tiny components or vibrating cosmic molecules or other technobabble that the Tinker doesn't know is happening when they build.

Nevertheless, I'm sure Apieron could collect enough knowledge from various tinker tech sources (and whatever translates to Earth Bet correctly from his perks; I'd bet on some less technobabble-exotic Star Trek stuff being able to exist) to do as you've described. Or at least upend the scientific community.
 
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Nevertheless, I'm sure Apieron could collect enough knowledge from various tinker tech sources (and whatever translates to Earth Bet correctly from his perks; I'd bet on some less technobabble-exotic Star Trek stuff being able to exist) to do as you've described. Or at least upend the scientific community

Thinking about it makes me want Apeiron, The Enigmatic Artificer to make an academic paper discussing the nature of the universe or maybe a paper about ancient Greek mythology and traditions. Joe could totally make a better translation of the work of Homer
 
We'll, except in any case where the Shard is doing vital work behind the scenes. Energizing tiny components are vibrating cosmic molecules or other technobabble that the Tinker doesn't know is happening when they build.

Nevertheless, I'm sure Apieron could collect enough knowledge from various tinker tech sources (and whatever translates to Earth Bet correctly from his perks; I'd bet on some less technobabble-exotic Star Trek stuff being able to exist) to do as you've described. Or at least upend the scientific community.
Even with the shard doing some of the work; it's still fundamentally a piece of technology, operating according to the laws of physics. I'd think that most of the "shard doing the heavy-lifting" comes during the actual tinkering process; making microscopic-precision adjustments to the arrangement of parts, adjusting the properties or state of the materials, etc., effectively allowing the tinker to bypass a lot of the "building the tools to build the tools to build the tools to build the thing" process, and giving the materials the tinker is working with the sort of rare or undetectable-by-modern-methods or difficult-to-replicate qualities that you'd need to achieve the specific effects. As well as optimizing the tech towards an unstable, clunky, barely-even-works, most-of-these-parts-are-useless, bare-bones state, that would require the tinker (and therefore the shard) to continually be maintaining the tech lest it breaks down. The most that I'd expect the shard to do Outside of that would maybe be supplying more power to the devices than the power-source would actually be capable of outputting, actively-maintaining stuff like radioactive materials that would normally be rapidly breaking down/losing important qualities, etc.

But actually understanding how the tech works via reverse-engineering would also give you the ability to recognize what sort of micro-scale precision and exotic material-qualities and the like that you'd need to build a more robust version that actually works. At the very least, I reckon Joe would be able to go "hmph, this needs some sort of material with a quotonic exfulation inhibition-quotient of 35" and then technobabble the solution to the technobabble and eventually design an actually replicable, (by normie hands, not utilizing Joe's powers) blue-print for a stable version, which he could then teach to people via his teaching power. Probably requiring cleanroom conditions or something to actually build, but y'know. He's not just any old enigmatic artificer, he's The enigmatic artificer. he could probably design a shittier version that you could build in your home-workshop, with the right materials.

Tinkers are generally focused on personal equipment and small-scale applications (as opposed to the Eden-verse, where they'd have been equipping and replenishing armies), and the warrior entity in general is more specced towards personal applications rather than strategic applications. In combination with that and the black-boxed nature of tinker-tech, it paints this picture of tinker-tech being generally like a really early-prototype of something that could actually work well.Like a future-tech equivalent of something held together with duct-tape. And that makes sense, given that it's the shard looking at the tinker's ideas and saying "yeah, i think i could do that with this specialty, and drawing up some blueprints". So it's either 'not a polished design' or "intentionally designed to be a bad design". So Apeiron comes in, reverse-engineers it in the laboratorium, and then drafts up a good, polished design that a real, unpowered person could build.

or at least, that's the logic that I based that concept off of.
 
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