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Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)

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TitanFrost said:
Can anyone tell me if it's fanon or canon that Ziz fucks with your brain by effecting it physically with micro-telekinesis? If it's canon than Joe's fashion power plus lathe metal might protect him. Not that he'd know it would protect him. And of course, the future sight would still be the main issue.

I think I've worked off this assumption before, but I'm all of a sudden getting the sense that that level of telekinesis might not make sense for the Simurgh to have given Wildbow talking about what would happen if the Endbringers went all out. Though I'll admit I've never read those posts directly.
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I don't know if the brain-fuckery is canonically just micro-telekinesis, but I think Wildbow has done WOG that Taylor's bug control is based on like telepathic brain waves or the like. as part of a point about how the entities Do have telepathy, they just don't give it out as it's own power because they've already gotten all of the useful data on that, iirc. I could be wrong about all of this but I think there's a WOG-basis to believe that the Simurgh's scream is actually telepathic.
But I've accepted that sometimes Wildbow is just trolling with the WOGs, and also that author-worship on the level that the Worm-fanbase engages in it is cringe-worthy and unhealthy.
Also not sure how that interacts with the established canon of BCF, given that supposedly, psychic powers are sufficiently Out-Of-Context enough to fuck with the entities' pre-cog capabilities. 100% possible and reasonable for LR to just ignore that kind of thing, given how he's just one guy and shouldn't have to go digging through everything Wildbow has ever said about the setting in order to write a fanfic about it.
 
readerdreamer said:
Simply put, Joe doesn't even consider romance as a possible explanation anymore, because the last time he did that the thing with Sabah happened. Sure he knows that it is a possibility, but the thought is so far away from him that he doesn't even think of it.
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Nope, I don't buy it. For himself, sure, but trauma makes you *more* conscious of the thing that traumatized you, not less. He'd absolutely notice relationships forming in others, either causing anxiety, envy or both.
 
MagicalAmbitions said:
I don't know if the brain-fuckery is canonically just micro-telekinesis, but I think Wildbow has done WOG that Taylor's bug control is based on like telepathic brain waves or the like. as part of a point about how the entities Do have telepathy, they just don't give it out as it's own power because they've already gotten all of the useful data on that, iirc. I could be wrong about all of this but I think there's a WOG-basis to believe that the Simurgh's scream is actually telepathic.
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IIRC that WoG was actually a big thing about etymology of words and precise definitions. Taylor's bug powers are telepathic in the sense that the shard is reading minds and carrying information between brains. Their effects are (and the simurgh's manipulations) are still accomplished by precise manipulation of neurons and not the warp, the force, the astral plane, the collective unconsciousness or other more spiritual/conceptual/metaphorical things.
 
Subrosian_Smithy said:
Well, obviously the Entities are just using magic to ensorcell people's hearts and read people's minds. Completely different from psychic powers! :V
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Jokes aside, if the explanations don't make sense, really the ultimate explanation is "Fiat."

The parahuman-magic equivalency? Fiat. Joe's powers? Fiat. Psychic powers being OCP? Fiat.
BelligerentGnu said:
Nope, I don't buy it. For himself, sure, but trauma makes you *more* conscious of the thing that traumatized you, not less. He'd absolutely notice relationships forming in others, either causing anxiety, envy or both.
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Avoidant behaviour comes in many forms, but what do I know? I'm only echoing what I've picked up from reading LordRoustabout's WoG on the subject, it doesn't really matter whether or not you buy it.
 
BelligerentGnu said:
Nope, I don't buy it. For himself, sure, but trauma makes you *more* conscious of the thing that traumatized you, not less. He'd absolutely notice relationships forming in others, either causing anxiety, envy or both.
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To be fair, Lord has gone on record saying that it is possible for Joe to get into a romantic relationship later in the story, however, he would have to work through some of his insecurities first.

Joe dealing with anything regarding romance is going to be a major step for him. Even encountering Sabah again will be hard to deal with, and will happen sooner or later thanks to Garment. It's an important thing for Joe to eventually work through, but not his key priority right now.
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That, and Joe has also acknowledged the idea and subsequently ignored it, mainly because it involves a Ward, given that it may be somewhat creepy.

The fact that March brough up the crush is actually one of the reasons Joe is completely ignoring the idea. He basically filed the idea away as a vaguely creepy (as it involves a Ward) cape shipping theory decided not to speculate on it. His own selective filtering of romance topics isn't helping matters.
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And on the note of anxiety or envy, it is also possible that Joe just, you know, doesn't care about other people getting into a relationship. You know, live and let live in that regard. It's possible he is conscious of his own issues and realizes he needs to work through them before he's ready to be in a relationship and doesn't hold it against others for not having those same issues.

Personally, I think calling Joe aromantic is a tad bit heavy-handed. And given the current situation, people's love lives are probably the least important thing that could possibly cross his mind at this moment.
 
MrCogmor said:
IIRC that WoG was actually a big thing about etymology of words and precise definitions. Taylor's bug powers are telepathic in the sense that the shard is reading minds and carrying information between brains. Their effects are (and the simurgh's manipulations) are still accomplished by precise manipulation of neurons and not the warp, the force, the astral plane, the collective unconsciousness or other more spiritual/conceptual/metaphorical things.
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Oh, nice.

Squamous Deity said:
Author-worship? Is this actually a thing? I've read a lot of Worm fanfics and I've hardly ever seen anyone doing anything other than either not talking about their opinion of Wildbow or hating on him.
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I was referencing the way that people religiously document and compile Wildbow's Word-of-God statements on the setting. It's like, the opposite of the Death of the Author - the Author's interpretation isn't just one of many interpretations: it's the one True interpretation, and any fan-fic that deviates from Wildbow's Ultimate, Glorious vision is met with endless citations of Wildbow's reddit comments and IRC chat logs and Spacebattles posts. The Worm fandom treats Wildbow's off-handed internet comments about Worm the way that Christian Fundamentalists treat the Bible. It's insane.

My personal view on WOG is that it's just a clarification of the intent that went into Canon, stuff like clarifying "Jack Slash's primary ability is that he doesn't lose to parahumans" or "so and so's trigger was [x]" or "here's what was going on behind-the-scenes with the power mechanics in this scene", and it's not something that needs regularly updated, dedicated threads on SB to keep track of and catalogue.

Some of it contradicts canon - here's an example: Wildbow makes a WOG statement before writing Ward that "Lisa's sexuality is basically a seinfeld-scene where she finds the turn-offs really quickly" that was ret-conned in Ward to be "she's just aroace." I might say "Lisa is canonically Aroace" in a fanfic thread such as this one, and out from the woodworks crawl 5 people quoting that WOG. I might followup with "no, literally, it's confirmed canon in Ward that she's aroace. let me have this" and those same people will say "Fuck Ward, I Hate Ward, and therefore your argument is invalid". Which leads me into the next part of my post!
Narsauce said:
Personally, I think calling Joe aromantic is a tad bit heavy-handed. And given the current situation, people's love lives are probably the least important thing that could possibly cross his mind at this moment.
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yeah, really heavy-handed to see a guy who thinks about romance less than I (an Aromantic person) do and go "he could be on the Aro spectrum" or "I hc him as Aro." completely unreasonable. (/s)

and don't even get me Started on the phrasing "calling Joe aromantic" as if it's an insult to your sensibilities that a character you like might even be Considered aro.

seriously though - how come every time somebody shares an Aromantic or Asexual headcanon (or literal canon), 50 people in the thread simultaneously show up to say "that's impossible, they're just traumatized, they're just focusing on other things, it's just their power discouraging those things, and frankly you're kind-of shoving this whole "aro & ace people existing" thing down my throat right now, here's 5 billion WOG posts about it." in unison like a swarm of assholes. The arguments that people make as to why a character isn't and could never be Aro/Ace are Literally Identical to the things that people say to Me to dismiss my sexuality. It's infuriating.

more importantly; it's a headcanon. you don't have to go on a rant about how it isn't fully-supported by canon or how WOG suggests otherwise or this or that. You don't have to disprove it. it's a headcanon. a thing that a person interprets about a character, in their head. their own personal version of canon, inside of their own mind, that they've chosen to share with the thread. it's not an attack, not a threat, not a demand, not an ultimatum, and not a debate. it's a headcanon. get a life.
 
Daym said:
What does exactly constitute as canon compliant as possible? What motivates our Lord and Saviour enough to change it? How much did Fanon affect him (as far as I know Worm has a huge but subtle discrepancy between Fanon and Canon, for example the Dragon of Kyushu was never actually used as a Title for Lung in Canon)?
What is Dream House? That name does not remind me of anything.
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For cannon compliant, he keeps to how characters act in the books, their goals and what info he gathers, and if there is a bit of fanon he will justify it, I. E even though it's not publicly know that Lung fought of the leviathan, Lord justified Vicky knowing due to the fact that PRT and local capes would have researched on his fighting capacity.

The Dream House is a South African Book written by Craig Higgosin that deals with how a few people have differing memories on a the past, speficaly during Apartheid, with the main conflict being between a old lady and the person who she viewed as a sirigate son, who evens his memories of her in a bad light due to the death of the person he was going to marry being killed by her husband and got away with it, because SA was really racist during apartheid.
 
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MagicalAmbitions said:
I was referencing the way that people religiously document and compile Wildbow's Word-of-God statements on the setting. It's like, the opposite of the Death of the Author - the Author's interpretation isn't just one of many interpretations: it's the one True interpretation, and any fan-fic that deviates from Wildbow's Ultimate, Glorious vision is met with endless citations of Wildbow's reddit comments and IRC chat logs and Spacebattles posts. The Worm fandom treats Wildbow's off-handed internet comments about Worm the way that Christian Fundamentalists treat the Bible. It's insane.
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Considering that "Death of the Author" has resulted in academic institutions not only teaching the complete opposite of the author's intent with regards a book, but then having the temerity to tell the author that their interpretation is wrong, I feel it's an concept that gets taken to absurdly arrogant extremes, has largely outlived its usefulness, and should be killed back like a hedge that's overgrown the entire garden.

While originally a criticism of people trying to read too much into the author's intent ("But, why are the curtains red? Does it represent the blinding rage that the character uses to shut out the world?" / "I wrote that scene in a hotel room with pretty red curtains") and largely being about not ascribing any "secret meaning" to the text, it has instead turned into the literary equivalent to the whole "my opinions are just as valid as your facts" nonsense that has contributed to the current health crisis, and to several political disasters before that.

Honestly, the way that most people seem to treat "Death of the Author", they're all too frequently discussing something closer to "Reflection of the Reader", exposing aspects of themselves that they perceive as existing in the text. Or, perhaps, "Pareidolia of the Reader", in some cases.
 
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MagicalAmbitions said:
I don't know if the brain-fuckery is canonically just micro-telekinesis, but I think Wildbow has done WOG that Taylor's bug control is based on like telepathic brain waves or the like. as part of a point about how the entities Do have telepathy, they just don't give it out as it's own power because they've already gotten all of the useful data on that, iirc. I could be wrong about all of this but I think there's a WOG-basis to believe that the Simurgh's scream is actually telepathic.
But I've accepted that sometimes Wildbow is just trolling with the WOGs, and also that author-worship on the level that the Worm-fanbase engages in it is cringe-worthy and unhealthy.
Also not sure how that interacts with the established canon of BCF, given that supposedly, psychic powers are sufficiently Out-Of-Context enough to fuck with the entities' pre-cog capabilities. 100% possible and reasonable for LR to just ignore that kind of thing, given how he's just one guy and shouldn't have to go digging through everything Wildbow has ever said about the setting in order to write a fanfic about it.
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Nah that wouldn't map. They release those sort of completely solved abilities to help enrich the environment for their other Shards.
MrCogmor said:
IIRC that WoG was actually a big thing about etymology of words and precise definitions. Taylor's bug powers are telepathic in the sense that the shard is reading minds and carrying information between brains. Their effects are (and the simurgh's manipulations) are still accomplished by precise manipulation of neurons and not the warp, the force, the astral plane, the collective unconsciousness or other more spiritual/conceptual/metaphorical things.
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I remember it being said to have been a matter of effecting endocrine systems and stress chemicals to effect memory formation and then using the memory of certain poses to cause links between different memories and then using that to trigger chosen behaviors.
BelligerentGnu said:
Ah, I did not know that's what you were doing. In that case, it's just a matter of disagreement on how trauma manifests.
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You seemed to be more deciding which behaviors people were allowed to develop but I guess that that's just a matter of terminology.
Narsauce said:
To be fair, Lord has gone on record saying that it is possible for Joe to get into a romantic relationship later in the story, however, he would have to work through some of his insecurities first.
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Yeah it's kind of hard to develop the idea of romance and relationships from first concept in the face of societal preconceptions.
MagicalAmbitions said:
yeah, really heavy-handed to see a guy who thinks about romance less than I (an Aromantic person) do and go "he could be on the Aro spectrum" or "I hc him as Aro." completely unreasonable. (/s)

and don't even get me Started on the phrasing "calling Joe aromantic" as if it's an insult to your sensibilities that a character you like might even be Considered aro.

seriously though - how come every time somebody shares an Aromantic or Asexual headcanon (or literal canon), 50 people in the thread simultaneously show up to say "that's impossible, they're just traumatized, they're just focusing on other things, it's just their power discouraging those things, and frankly you're kind-of shoving this whole "aro & ace people existing" thing down my throat right now, here's 5 billion WOG posts about it." in unison like a swarm of assholes. The arguments that people make as to why a character isn't and could never be Aro/Ace are Literally Identical to the things that people say to Me to dismiss my sexuality. It's infuriating.

more importantly; it's a headcanon. you don't have to go on a rant about how it isn't fully-supported by canon or how WOG suggests otherwise or this or that. You don't have to disprove it. it's a headcanon. a thing that a person interprets about a character, in their head. their own personal version of canon, inside of their own mind, that they've chosen to share with the thread. it's not an attack, not a threat, not a demand, not an ultimatum, and not a debate. it's a headcanon. get a life.
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Because, and I'm sure that this is going to make some people feel very conflicted, someones sexuality, and whatever the romantic equivalent of that word is, isn't that persons choice and Joe used to be in a relationship.
Chronocidal said:
Considering that "Death of the Author" has resulted in academic institutions not only teaching the complete opposite of the author's intent with regards a book, but then having the temerity to tell the author that their interpretation is wrong, I feel it's an concept that gets taken to absurdly arrogant extremes, has largely outlived its usefulness, and should be killed back like a hedge that's overgrown the entire garden.

While originally a criticism of people trying to read too much into the author's intent ("But, why are the curtains red? Does it represent the blinding rage that the character uses to shut out the world?" / "I wrote that scene in a hotel room with pretty red curtains") and largely being about not ascribing any "secret meaning" to the text, it has instead turned into the literary equivalent to the whole "my opinions are just as valid as your facts" nonsense that has contributed to the current health crisis, and to several political disasters before that.

Honestly, the way that most people seem to treat "Death of the Author", they're all too frequently discussing something closer to "Reflection of the Reader", exposing aspects of themselves that they perceive as existing in the text. Or, perhaps, "Pareidolia of the Reader", in some cases.
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I'd personally just conclude that there are multiple sets of canon based off of the minimum number of coherent sets of canonical assertions.
 
Chronocidal said:
Considering that "Death of the Author" has resulted in academic institutions not only teaching the complete opposite of the author's intent with regards a book, but then having the temerity to tell the author that their interpretation is wrong, I feel it's an concept that gets taken to absurdly arrogant extremes, has largely outlived its usefulness, and should be killed back like a hedge that's overgrown the entire garden.
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The interpretation isn't what the author intends. It is what the typical or expected audience receives from the work. If the message received is not what the author intended then perhaps that may be the fault of the author for communicating their ideas poorly.

E: Or the author could just be lying. Bradbury apparently claimed the book was driven by censorship concerns in early interviews and only started claiming it was driven by concern over mass media instead in later years.
 
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MrCogmor said:
The interpretation isn't what the author intends. It is what the typical or expected audience receives from the work. If the message received is not what the author intended then perhaps that may be the fault of the author for communicating their ideas poorly.
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I may start sounding a bit mystical here, so everybody feel free to ignore this.

Everyone has unique experiences that shape and form their perceptions, and filter everything they encounter thru those experiences. In effect, the Universe becomes a mirror that reflects back different aspects of ourselves, since there is too much reality out there to perceive all of it accurately. The fact that the Great Ray Bradbury was able to write a book that people perceived as having a different message than the one he intended does not make either one invalid, it just means they are focusing on different parts of the mirror they are looking in. Of course, as the manufacturer of this particular mirror, Ray Bradbury's intentions are certainly relevant, and attacking him probably also reveals more information about those students than it does about his abilities as an author.

I must confess I had a similar experience my own self. I had come up with my own interpretation of one of my favorite songs that was both meaningful and very relevant to my own experiences. Then, I heard an interview with the band that indicated they had pretty much what I perceived at the time as the exact opposite meaning for some of the words of the song. At first I was a bit horrified, and wondered if that meant I should stop caring for the song as much. Eventually, I was able to reconcile what I thought the song had meant with what the band intended, and it remains a favorite song to this day. My primary way of perceiving it remains what it was, in effect a mirror that reflects an important aspect of my own reality.. but I now also have the knowledge that there is a meaningful and different intent that was put into the song by it's creators. I have found such opposites useful in finding balance in one's perceptions.

Chronocidal said:
it has instead turned into the literary equivalent to the whole "my opinions are just as valid as your facts" nonsense that has contributed to the current health crisis, and to several political disasters before that.
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Well, that's also true lol. I think there is a looser standard when it comes to works of art and literature than to scientific facts though. Jumping off of that cliff is going to hurt regardless of how your experiences cause you to perceive the cliff, but if it is a Georgia O'Keefe painting of a cliff, you can argue about what the meaning of that painting is to your hearts content, regardless of what the artist says about it. (spoiler alert: Georgia O'Keefe her own self often told censors and art critics alike they had nasty minds and that of course her paintings had none of the erotic content they were looking for. At other times she had different things to say, or nothing at all to say)
 
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AntaeusTheGiant said:
The fact that the Great Ray Bradbury was able to write a book that people perceived as having a different message than the one he intended does not make either one invalid, it just means they are focusing on different parts of the mirror they are looking in
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How people should interpret a work or which interpretation is 'valid' is a matter of opinion. How the public actually interpret and are influenced by the work is a more objective question that can answered empirically. Spielberg likely didn't expect that filming Jaws would lead to sharks becoming endangered but "Kill sharks before they kill your people" is a message plenty of people got from the movie.
 
MagicalAmbitions said:
seriously though - how come every time somebody shares an Aromantic or Asexual headcanon (or literal canon), 50 people in the thread simultaneously show up to say "that's impossible, they're just traumatized, they're just focusing on other things, it's just their power discouraging those things, and frankly you're kind-of shoving this whole "aro & ace people existing" thing down my throat right now, here's 5 billion WOG posts about it." in unison like a swarm of assholes. The arguments that people make as to why a character isn't and could never be Aro/Ace are Literally Identical to the things that people say to Me to dismiss my sexuality. It's infuriating.

more importantly; it's a headcanon. you don't have to go on a rant about how it isn't fully-supported by canon or how WOG suggests otherwise or this or that. You don't have to disprove it. it's a headcanon. a thing that a person interprets about a character, in their head. their own personal version of canon, inside of their own mind, that they've chosen to share with the thread. it's not an attack, not a threat, not a demand, not an ultimatum, and not a debate. it's a headcanon. get a life.
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At the risk of inflating a situation beyond of what it should be. I think people are not "fighting" your headcanon, my own comments were intended to take your headcanon as presented and trying to fit the known facts into a possible generic fanon, that's taking it as possible and seeing if the facts fit, of course taking into account my own knowledge and experience.-

There are several things that obviously affect the perception of the situation, the short timeframe of the story, the fact that the MC attempted and was interested in a romantic relationship, the WOG that the character would eventually be able to have a romantic relationship (after working his issues) bring the counterexamples I and other mentioned, that the trauma and family issues could affect the MC reactions and thought processes.-
Furthermore, of my aro friends, at least one feels that family issues caused her to become so, and another (who is mostly aro, not absolute) feels that that's the way he is. So in my experience aro has different sources, and discussing the possibility and facts both in favor and against it; it's not aro bashing, just debating the possibility as any other nuance and detail of this story that we have discussed in the almost eight hundred pages that this story has.
 
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Utterly Depraved said:
You seemed to be more deciding which behaviors people were allowed to develop but I guess that that's just a matter of terminology.
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*eyeroll* It's a matter of plausibility and believability. Framing it the way you just did is just shutting down debate.

If the MC had been shot and then started to ignore the existence of guns directly in front of him, I'd consider that a more extreme example of a similar response. Like I said, trauma makes you hyper-aware of the thing which traumatized you. I could see Joe avoiding situations where romantic relationships were forming, but when he's already in such a situation, scrubbing it from his inner dialogue doesn't feel real to me. In the Garment/Flechette situation, I'd expect him to be anxious about the possibility of his friend getting hurt.

As a friend with PTSD put it, if you open a door and are mauled by a tiger that was waiting inside, then for the rest of your life, every door has a tiger behind it until proven otherwise.
 
MrCogmor said:
Taylor's bug powers are telepathic in the sense that the shard is reading minds and carrying information between brains.
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Not exactly it confirmed when Taylor went Khepri that she isn't actually affecting or controlling the mind but the body, it's basically body control since those under Khepri control could still think and try to resist it which resulted them in getting strokes for it. It's telepathic like or somewhat similar but not actually telepathy, since it's basically Taylor taking control the nervous system or something and puppet both bugs or even humanoids with Khepri
MrCogmor said:
Their effects are (and the simurgh's manipulations) are still accomplished by precise manipulation of neurons
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Just pointing this out Ziz is Manton limited she can't do what you just said, her power is more closer to hypnosis putting unconscious suggestions into people mind and using her thinker powers to set up event that would result for a Ziz bomb. It deals frequency like the time Ziz unleash her scream it reminds Taylor of Dinah notes while Tattletale is reminded her of her brother
The Simurgh continuously emits a psychic 'scream' - a type of psychic echolocation that allows her to scan her surroundings while exerting psychic pressure to alter behavior, implant messages, or create compulsions.[7]​
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She uses these scans to make long-term predictions of behavior and activity (in the order of months and years) to turn human beings into rube-goldberg devices, with whole streams or strings of horrific events occurring in areas she's been active.[7]​
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Aisha knows what's up.
Good bot, Survey. Good bot. <3

Even without the common sense to just eat a psychology textbook, Joe's friends and powers (his clones are kinda both) are putting him in a position to recontextualize the abuse he's suffering.
See it from a bystander's perspective.
In canon, Taylor got a lever big enough to get out from under any boot, while here Joe has been able to create a new foundation to build on.


And, quick reality check: "because they love you" isn't a reason to chug poison, even if that's how they sweeten it. Has to do with sunk cost fallacy, stockholm syndrome... an injury is an injury. In the real world intent doesn't actually buy you anything.


Also, silly question: Any reason the clones don't upload their memory for Joe to intergrate at the end of each batch? More of their existence will remain.
 
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Ziggrrauglurr said:
I would think that integrating memories of a being that has accepted its life would end very soon, multiple times, wouldn't be very healthy...
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I agree that I wouldn't add them to Joe Prime's memories, but I could see the copies storing their memories right before popping, then the next batch downloading those memories to become almost like a continuation of the previous copies but with Joe Prime's memories from that time period added on top.
 
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