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Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)

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Mesaphrom said:
EDIT: AFAIK wouldn't Joe need to have a really messed up view of the world to have a Reality Marble? And/or stop being concidered human (which I think is the reason Servants can just have one, since they aren't human anymore)?
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This is getting really deep into Nasu lore that I really don't feel like derailing the thread with, so let's just say that unique Common Sense will just make a Reality Marble an innate trait rather than something that must be learned. Magecraft as a whole is really involved with Inner World/Outer World shenanigans, and you practically need a degree in the stuff to explain everything to the uninitiated.
 
Zakara said:
This is getting really deep into Nasu lore that I really don't feel like derailing the thread with, so let's just say that unique Common Sense will just make a Reality Marble an innate trait rather than something that must be learned. Magecraft as a whole is really involved with Inner World/Outer World shenanigans, and you practically need a degree in the stuff to explain everything to the uninitiated.
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I like to explain it as "telling the world 'fuck you, I am right' really, really loud", which is kinda true.

EDIT: Huh, wonder what Spiral Energy would do to that.....
 
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Mesaphrom said:
Just to correct, I wasn't talking about Shirou's shitty nerves to MC stuff, I was talking about about creating artificial MCs to transplant into the body. I mean, it was probably something I half read on the wiki or from some fic, but i'm too lazy to actually look it up tbh. And weren't Zouken's Worms kind of subtitutes to MCs too? Or are those under some really specific cirscuntances that make it possible (like the everything usually is in Fate stuff)?

EDIT: AFAIK wouldn't Joe need to have a really messed up view of the world to have a Reality Marble? And/or stop being concidered human (which I think is the reason Servants can just have one, since they aren't human anymore)?
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that I remember most of those who have one and a dead apostle, this is because to have a marble reality you have to have a mentality distorted from the normal human mentality, which technically Joe has this type for the alien robotic mentality
 
Commander said:
- How large is tetra at this point? I got the impression during the fight with Oni Lee she was at least several meters long, + however much thread it took to wind through Joes body. but here, her outline is implied to be less volume than Joe's body,
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"There are 60km (37 miles) of nerves in the human body."
I assume Tetra, if she decide to stretch in one string, will be at least as long. Probably longer.

Commander said:
witch doesn't seem possible, given the fact that she's been draining a demigod of all the blood in his body for... what, 6 hours? more? How much thread are we dealing with here?
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Why not? She tried her best to limit her growing.
 
Mesaphrom said:
I like to explain it as "telling the world 'fuck you, I am right' really, really loud", which is kinda true.
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The best I've ever heard it put is "I Reject Your Reality And Substitute My Soul". Without getting too deep into it, the actual way it works is abusing World Egg theory to invert the borders of reality and reclassify the user's Inner World as the Outer World. Again, a degree in metaphysics is recommended.
 
LordRoustabout said:
Or we would have if the Celestial Forge didn't suddenly make a connection to the Alchemy constellation. Everyone at least recognized what was happening and fell silent to give me and my duplicate time to process the new ability.

The ability was called Thaumaturgical Focus: Transmutation and focused on a particular art of magic, or magecraft to be accurate to the terminology used in that particular art. The power opened up an entirely new type of magic, even if I was limited to transmutation effects within that system. Transmutation was specifically related to spells that interfere with aspects of an object, either overriding existing properties or granting entirely new ones. It was rather focused given my impressions of how wide reaching this kind of magic seemed to be, with my granted skills being limited to reinforcement, alteration, and projection.

That wasn't to say they were in any way useless. Reinforcement was the most basic of the properties and that still allowed incredible levels of enhancement. Essentially, defects in a material would be filled with magical energy, allowing them to function beyond what should be physically possible, taking something to an entirely new level thanks to the improvements of the reinforcing energy.

Alteration was closer to what you would think of if someone said the word 'transmutation'. It was giving properties or effects to objects that they usually wouldn't have. This was the type of transmutation that could alter the form or function of physical objects in the world.

The final ability was projection. Well, it was technically known as Gradation Air, but it definitely was about projecting the forms of objects into the world. The objects are created from emulating material composition with magical energy and shaping that energy into the form of an object. The 'Gradation' part is based on how the object fades out after it's creation, the magic that composes it being constantly eroded by the natural forces of the real world. 'Air' is just a reference to it being created from and fading to nothing.

Normally projection is fairly weak magic. It's difficult to create meaningful objects with projection and they're usually weak and fragile when compared to what you could manage with reinforcement. Still, there were ways around that. You can improve the quality of projections through better understanding of their construction and mechanics, which was an advantage that had been practically built for me. It also had the important feature of actually creating something. The object was worn down by natural forces after creation, but it was still an actual created object, not a temporary summon or energy effect.

That meant all of my creation powers would apply. Everything from production boosts to quality increases to resource reduction. It was all applicable to projected objects. In this case, 'resources' were related to the magical energy that was required to create the item in question. Mana. Now, I had existing sources of mana from other abilities and casting systems, but fortunately this ability came paired with another smaller mote that provided its own access to magical energy.

And brought with it some serious concerns.

The mote was called Magic Circuits. It gave me 20 magic circuits of extremely high quality. Magic circuits being paths within your soul that collect magical energy and allow you to channel it into spells. By the standards of this type of magic 20 wasn't a particularly impressive number, but the quality made up for it. All together it provided a new source of magical energy, completely compatible with several of my other types of magic. There was just one problem.

"What the fuck?"
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Ooh this will be fun.
Shouldn't this include Structural graps in the analysis? It's basically a function of reinforcement so...
I'm not entirely sure of the use case here of projection or alteation over e.g. making something with Matrix or Alchemy, assuming that didn't get sacrificed - shame that didn't really get covered.
It might be easier to use it to field fab exotic materials - it seems like alchemy has a hard time with that without even for him the rituals and alchemical arrays, where as at least EMIYAs tracing is capable of instantaneous fabrication of exotic materials, and it might be possible to create things that he doesn't fully understand the manufacturing process of in place with it...
Reinforcement should be a pretty substantial boon to his basic combat abilities.
 
I think he used the souls they got gifted from hell but they somehow exploited that one effect they got, I don't remember what it was from exactly or what it was called but it had to do with turning souls into improvable artifacts or something, that said that using souls as a power source wouldn't ever completely deplete them. The problem with human transmutation in FMA's Alchemy is that a human soul effectively has infinite value, so you need something of the same or greater value or Truth decides to wipe away the debt in return for a permanent loss of function. Spending soul energy is probably particularly potent in FMA Alchemy, but it's not gonna provide the same infinite value UNLESS you found a way to make said energy replenish itself infinitely(theoretically), fulfilling the letter of the agreement if not the spirit.
 
Daxus1120 said:
Well at least now Joe have Shirou three require spells in order to achieve tracing(to copy NP), reinforcement, structural analysis, projection and alterations. How long until Joe's unlocks his reality marble?
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Having a Reality Marble isn't actually a good thing.

It restricts your magecraft heavily by only allowing you to perform feats that directly relate to the Marble. It offsets that limitation by making you very good at those feats, yes, but this comes at the cost of basically literally everything else.

Shirou got around this limitation by having his Reality Marble filled with Noble Phantasms that could themselves do things, but his only magecraft at the end was "sword" projection and tasks directly related to it.

A normal magus that wanted to emulate Shirou on the other hand would get maybe 50% to 80% of the way to Shirou's level for "sword" projection through a combination of Memory Partitioning to store the relevant Mystery knowledge and Thought Acceleration to go through the Projection process the regular way at Shirou-like speeds... but also wouldn't be limited to only weapons. (Note: without Archer's gifted experience of the many Phantasms, Shirou's Tracing is basically useless in the magus world.)

The thing about this is: Joe doesn't need a Reality Marble to have the benefits of one. He's already got literal supercomputers in his brain, and has soul manipulation powers to interface with said supercomputer -- which he can still enchant and improve that way too.

The challenge from there becomes learning enough about Mystery to Reinforce it into things, and capture that experience for later recall. Without access to Servants, however, it's not really all that big a deal.
 
Logos01 said:
Reality Marble
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I kind want Joe to pull people into his own personal reality like Shirou and basically say "this is my domain and in here I am king(or god)!". That would have been cool, plus it would be useful to trap things like Endbringers in it to avoid a lot of collateral damage and casualties, until the EBs dies or Joe runs out of energy. Just imagine trapping leviathan in a reality marble and there's no water for it to manipulate, it can only have its speeds and brute rating while Joe will still have access to his arsenal.
 
TheOneYouFeed said:
The problem with human transmutation in FMA's Alchemy is that a human soul effectively has infinite value, so you need something of the same or greater value or Truth decides to wipe away the debt in return for a permanent loss of function. Spending soul energy is probably particularly potent in FMA Alchemy, but it's not gonna provide the same infinite value UNLESS you found a way to make said energy replenish itself infinitely(theoretically), fulfilling the letter of the agreement if not the spirit.
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Okay, if a soul truly has infinite value, what's the value of a quarter of a soul? What about a millionth of a soul? Infinite.

Arguably, Rationing alone lets him spend only as much soul as he needs to, which would let him get unlimited infinitely valuable uses out of a single infinitely valuable soul.

On the other hand, that very property of subtracting infinities makes a mockery of "equivalent" exchange, so the value of a soul can't actually be infinite here.
 
prussiangrandier said:
I don't think duplicated matter is a good thing for magic, given it uses mystery and that basically dilutes that, and that's if it's considered magical and not a projection.
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I mean depending on how you look at it Joe's power to create resources from nothing is awfully similar to the First Magic.

I mean he needs a template, but after that he literally has more of any resource that he has access to in "magically" limitless amounts.
 
Graviator said:
On the other hand, that very property of subtracting infinities makes a mockery of "equivalent" exchange, so the value of a soul can't actually be infinite here.
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Technically speaking there are greater and lesser infinities, but measuring them against each other in this case seems... weird, actually. I'm also not entirely sure infinite is the right word. The idea in FMA is that the human soul is supposed to be, literally, invaluable. Priceless. Mathematically(rather than economically) I feel like an item whose value is "invaluable" would have to be expressed with infinity, right? It's something with value without limit.

The problem I see now is that if Rationing grants infinite potential output for souls used as power sources, that doesn't actually matter because it'd almost certainly not have infinite throughput so you'd only be able to input so much energy for the ritual. So, if it were Human Transmutation, you'd still get whammied by Truth.
 
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Logos01 said:
The only reason Shirou survived the process of making his artificial magic circuits was because he had Avalon healing the excruciating agony and literal burnt out flesh the process caused -- and the artificial nature of those circuits rendered them barely usable shit tier. The thing about that however is that the primary limit on the throughput of magic circuits is that they heat up with overuse, and burn the body from the inside out... and Joe's got easy access to methods of making his body completely immune to thermal overload.
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So there are a few things first nerve circuits are only one type of artificial circuit there are also Zouken's worms and Etherlite basically anything that could be used to channel Mana through the body.

It's also entirely possible to increase magic Circuits post-birth it just often comes with terrible side effects and is very dangerous.
TYPE-MOON Wiki said:
Like any other organ, the number of Magic Circuits that one possesses is determined at birth and cannot decrease or increase naturally, meaning that those from older lineages will be more powerful, but it is possible to change that number artificially through a number of methods. One of those methods is through the establishment of a mystic pass between two magi from which the Circuits can transferred. As the Circuits are located in the soul, a fusion of body and mind is required during the transplant. However, the process carries the same risks and complications as a transplant of organs. Furthermore, as the Magic Circuits become unstable if tampered while in use, there is a possibility of mutual destruction if a contract similar to that between a magus and his familiar has not been established beforehand.

For that and other reasons, lineages of magi seek not to tamper with the Circuits of their members while they are alive, but rather try to produce descendants with the greatest "extra" number of Magic Circuits possible.
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That Undefinable Thing
Possibly gives Joe a good way to add more circuits.

Edit: What Shirou was doing with nerve circuits is dangerous and incredibly painful it wasn't damaging his body but it could if he channeled too much Mana. Which happened in unlimited blade works when he tried to project Kanshou and Bakuya for the first time.
 
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drvash said:
As a demigod, does Joe's magecraft come from "the Age of the Gods" rather than Modern Magecraft?

Does his magical energy come directly from The Root?

What are Joe's Elements and Origin? The Celestial Forge was artificially grafted onto Joe's soul, so it'd be fitting if Joe had Dual Origins like mage-slayer Kiritsugu Emiya.
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So I don't really know how it works but there's something known as regression.
TYPE-MOON Wiki said:
Regression to the Age of Gods
Beings like Lugh Beowulf and Arcueid Brunestud have Regression to the Age of Gods (神代回帰?​, Also called Reversion to the Age of Gods) as their own style of Magic Circuits. It represents the extent at which they are capable of producing Mysteries that existed on Earth before Magic. They are ranked with quantifiable letters like Magic Circuits. Their Quality ranking represents "how distant from what humans are capable of" when reproducing their pure Mysteries. Their Quantity ranking represents power, the higher the quantity, the greater the degree of influence over the surrounding environment. C rank Quantity allows for the display of power over a village at most. Their Composition represents the era of the "Mystery", such as Runes, Kabbalah, and Black Magic do so in magecraft. While similar in concept, things like Alice Kuonji's Ploys are not from the Age of Gods and cannot be assigned a number in Regression to the Age of Gods.
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Regression seems linked to the magic circuits but I'm not sure about that.
but if they are his circuits came from a fiat-backed perk that is from a jump that takes place during the Modern Age.
Logos01 said:
Having a Reality Marble isn't actually a good thing.

It restricts your magecraft heavily by only allowing you to perform feats that directly relate to the Marble. It offsets that limitation by making you very good at those feats, yes, but this comes at the cost of basically literally everything else.

Shirou got around this limitation by having his Reality Marble filled with Noble Phantasms that could themselves do things, but his only magecraft at the end was "sword" projection and tasks directly related to it.

A normal magus that wanted to emulate Shirou on the other hand would get maybe 50% to 80% of the way to Shirou's level for "sword" projection through a combination of Memory Partitioning to store the relevant Mystery knowledge and Thought Acceleration to go through the Projection process the regular way at Shirou-like speeds... but also wouldn't be limited to only weapons. (Note: without Archer's gifted experience of the many Phantasms, Shirou's Tracing is basically useless in the magus world.)

The thing about this is: Joe doesn't need a Reality Marble to have the benefits of one. He's already got literal supercomputers in his brain, and has soul manipulation powers to interface with said supercomputer -- which he can still enchant and improve that way too.

The challenge from there becomes learning enough about Mystery to Reinforce it into things, and capture that experience for later recall. Without access to Servants, however, it's not really all that big a deal.
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Having a reality marbles has nothing to do with Shirou issues in using other forms of magecraft he could learn other forms of magecraft but he would find it incredibly difficult.
TYPE-MOON Wiki said:
Under the system of Magecraft, Origins are used to describe precise details about a magus, while Elemental Affinity indicates one's general alignment. Magi with an Origin that is strongly expressed outwardly are sometimes removed from the normal alignments and there are times that the origin itself becomes the alignment. Most of those magi exhibit their talents as extreme specialists, allowing them to potentially reach higher grounds than normal magi. Even those without an Elemental Affinity are sometimes still capable of casting spells simply by following their Origin. It's possible for them to overcome great obstacles such as a lack of Circuits or a lack of talent for Magecraft altogether. Shirou Emiya's origin is "Sword" and his alignment as a Magus is also "Sword". He is unable to use magic of the five great elements with precision because he doesn't have any of them as an alignment, but it does allow for the manifestation of "Unlimited Blade Works."
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tvo770 said:
Having a reality marbles has nothing to do with Shirou issues in using other forms of magecraft he could learn other forms of magecraft but he would find it incredibly difficult.
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I could've sworn there was something about Reality Marble holders being unable to also hold Magic Crests, which as a result is a massive limitation on their potential capacity as mages -- on top of Shirou's limits with "Sword"ey mc "Sword"iness.
 
Daxus1120 said:
I kind want Joe to pull people into his own personal reality like Shirou and basically say "this is my domain and in here I am king(or god)!". That would have been cool, plus it would be useful to trap things like Endbringers in it to avoid a lot of collateral damage and casualties, until the EBs dies or Joe runs out of energy. Just imagine trapping leviathan in a reality marble and there's no water for it to manipulate, it can only have its speeds and brute rating while Joe will still have access to his arsenal.
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Isn't that basically the role his Workshop currently fulfils? Perhaps getting Reality Marble access will just let him move things into/out of his Workshop without needing a door, and manifest parts of it in the Real World to use.

Like, he's just chilling with the other Capes, waiting for Leviathan to arrive, and inspiration strikes. He pulls a fully equipped Tinker Workbench out of thin air, including a full-size forge that is somehow powered by lava, and casually whips up a new invention.

Imagine the look on Armsmaster's face!
 
Logos01 said:
I could've sworn there was something about Reality Marble holders being unable to also hold Magic Crests, which as a result is a massive limitation on their potential capacity as mages -- on top of Shirou's limits with "Sword"ey mc "Sword"iness.
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So I can't think of anyone with a crest that also has a reality marble but that shouldn't matter.

From what I understand all reality marble actually is a bounded field that replaces the current reality with a reality recorded in the soul and the soul is basically a record of an individual and there's nothing about a magic crest that should interfere.

TYPE-MOON Wiki said:
The first generation of a family's Magic Crest is developed by implanting a fragment of some lost Phantasmal Species or Mystic Code, called a 'core,' into the body. Of course, since you are implanting a completely foreign object into the body, the rejection response is far stronger than what one would see when receiving a Crest from a parent. By suffering through those rejections for generations, the core will slowly become saturated with the hosts' magecraft, and thus the Magic Crest would be complete.

However, magi that use this method to produce Magic Crests are all but extinct in modern times.

While there aren't that many from outside previously established families that decide to pursue magecraft, those that do typically received a Crest Split from a much more historied family. Of course, since it's a transplant from a stranger, the intended function of the Magic Crest - to act as a crystallized mystery - is all but lost. Even so, it is a method that produces results many generations faster than starting from scratch, and it is much easier to control the development of a Crest made in such a way.

This method does damage the original parent Crest, but with the help of a Tuner (mages who specialize in healing and improving Crests) such a level of damage can normally be repaired within a few months to a year. In exchange, the source family can expect tremendous loyalty from the recipients, and the family that received the piece of the Crest becomes a branch family of the original. As such, it became common place for families involved in factional struggles to create such branch families, and the original family from which they were derived would come to refer to their Magic Crest as a Source Crest.
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Chronocidal said:
Like, he's just chilling with the other Capes, waiting for Leviathan to arrive, and inspiration strikes. He pulls a fully equipped Tinker Workbench out of thin air, including a full-size forge that is somehow powered by lava, and casually whips up a new invention.

Imagine the look on Armsmaster's face!
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The thing is... He don't need Marble to do something like that. Well, maybe outside of "powered by lava" part. But everything else you described he can do already. :D
 
tvo770 said:
So I can't think of anyone with a crest that also has a reality marble but that shouldn't matter.

From what I understand all reality marble actually is a bounded field that replaces the current reality with a reality recorded in the soul and the soul is basically a record of an individual and there's nothing about a magic crest that should interfere.
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Well, Reality Marbles can't be inherited, and even those instances of anyone with an RM coming from an established Magus family didn't get crests -- so that's where my understanding comes from.

IIRC the bit where they might interfere comes from both basically being in the "core" slot of ones magic circuit anatomy (which, again, is as much the soul as it is the body).

But Nasuverse gonna Nasuverse so it's not like I can claim certainty about shit.
 
Logos01 said:
Well, Reality Marbles can't be inherited, and even those instances of anyone with an RM coming from an established Magus family didn't get crests -- so that's where my understanding comes from.

IIRC the bit where they might interfere comes from both basically being in the "core" slot of ones magic circuit anatomy (which, again, is as much the soul as it is the body).

But Nasuverse gonna Nasuverse so it's not like I can claim certainty about shit.
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So the way I understand it the reason a Reality Marbles can't be inherited by a Magic Crest. Is Because the actual mystery is basically a bounded fealed that when deployed replaces the world with a reality that is recorded somewhere else in the case of a reality marble the soul. That mystery probably could be stored in a crest but a crest can't store a recorded world if the inheritor of the crest tries to enact the mystery it'd be like trying to tell a computer to go to a file that isn't there anymore.

It's unfortunate if Joe had gotten information on bounded fields he could have possibly used one with his magitek perks to replace the world with one he designed in a computer essentially making him a reality warper.
It would have probably even been possible to have survey edit the simulated world in real time for some BB style shenanigans.
 
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