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Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)

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Projection may actualy allow Joe much more freedom with his tech also for diffrent reason everyone think about. Yes if he try his Perks my let projected things last for centuries. But Joe have phobia of his tech getting reverse engineered by others and thats way he dont deploy armies of bots(because lets be real they already think he is S-class problem). But what if instead of trying to make things lasting basicaly forver he will try in other direction? To make things that after all Perks exist only for days and works only thanks to Fiat backing mechanism(like his mono blades that wouldnt last very long on their own). Design them right way and even if somebody gets his stuff it will collapse not long afterwards.

That is if he wont include some mechanism in it that would let him destabilise its magic structure on demand(if that spell dont have such already).

Actualy if he knows that his magecraft is from Nasus works can he try using them and his other knowledge to recreate others branches of magecraft from it?
 
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Too Much To Put Up With (Albert)
  • Apocrypha
    • Omake Offering: Too Much To Put Up With

    I was still processing the appalling lengths my clones had gone to, to separate myself and Tetra without serious harm to either of us, when my phone rang. As it were. Lisa was on the line.

    "What's up?" I asked, locking down my expression, pose, and tone to complete neutrality. She wasn't Professor Hebert's daughter, but she was probably still underage and we didn't need that headache. "In case you're wondering, no I haven't had time to look at PHO or anything. I just finished healing my personal injuries, and I was going to be looking at undoing some of the damage to the city next."

    Maybe Rome wasn't built in a day, but I ought to be able to clear up the Dust and Minovsky spills without issue, once my clones finished crafting the containment cylinders. Normally it wouldn't be easy, but all my different powers combine together to tell reality to sit down, shut up, and do what it's told.

    She winced, not that I needed the holodisplay to notice when I had access to her full medical telemetry. "You're confident you can, but can we get a double-check on that before you deploy? Everything that happened after you were hurt, people are terrified. And impressed. But mostly terrified."

    I shrugged. "Fair enough. I could even ask the Undersiders to do it, since Dragon probably wouldn't swoop down to confront you."

    She winced again. "About that. Remember how I said there was bad stuff about our boss? And I wasn't certain, but once I was I'd come to you with everything?"

    Which wasn't quite how that discussion had happened, but I nodded.

    "I'm still not certain. But my time has run out. He's decided that you've got to go, and he did something that backfired on him, and now he's furious enough with me to want to have me killed. Probably the rest of the team, just to clean up loose ends."

    I sighed. "Of course he has. And right when I'd rather be spending the next few days upgrading with everything my passenger figured out during the ABB fight. Alright, tell me what you can, while I prep a few things, and I'll be on my way shortly."

    "His name is Coil, and yes, he's an actual cape. His power is a shaker/thinker combination, some sort of probability manipulation. Not perfect timing like March had, but if he's able to boost your luck, a heist becomes much more likely to succeed, and he can tell if your luck is going to be bad that day . . ."

    I listened with half an ear while I pulled up everything known about Coil and his mercenaries. The technology they used was laughable by comparison with what I was capable of. Hopefully he wouldn't have some sort of surprise to pull out of his ass like the ABB had, but either way I was going to over-prepare with every last possible second available.

    At the scale I operated at, he was a mosquito, but even as an annoyance, Coil had decided to become too much for me to put up with.
     
  • Apocrypha
    • Albert said:
    *snip*
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    Interesting omake and also true, Joe can basically deal with Coil easily, the snake bastard has nothing that can even harm Joe and Joe will aim for the overkill option if necessary. The only reason is because tattletale(not shocking, he basically saves her life and that's how she repays, always holding back useful info), it takes until Coil decides to kill them all that will finally push her.
     
    Im
    Albert said:
    Omake Offering: Too Much To Put Up With

    I was still processing the appalling lengths my clones had gone to, to separate myself and Tetra without serious harm to either of us, when my phone rang. As it were. Lisa was on the line.

    "What's up?" I asked, locking down my expression, pose, and tone to complete neutrality. She wasn't Professor Hebert's daughter, but she was probably still underage and we didn't need that headache. "In case you're wondering, no I haven't had time to look at PHO or anything. I just finished healing my personal injuries, and I was going to be looking at undoing some of the damage to the city next."

    Maybe Rome wasn't built in a day, but I ought to be able to clear up the Dust and Minovsky spills without issue, once my clones finished crafting the containment cylinders. Normally it wouldn't be easy, but all my different powers combine together to tell reality to sit down, shut up, and do what it's told.

    She winced, not that I needed the holodisplay to notice when I had access to her full medical telemetry. "You're confident you can, but can we get a double-check on that before you deploy? Everything that happened after you were hurt, people are terrified. And impressed. But mostly terrified."

    I shrugged. "Fair enough. I could even ask the Undersiders to do it, since Dragon probably wouldn't swoop down to confront you."

    She winced again. "About that. Remember how I said there was bad stuff about our boss? And I wasn't certain, but once I was I'd come to you with everything?"

    Which wasn't quite how that discussion had happened, but I nodded.

    "I'm still not certain. But my time has run out. He's decided that you've got to go, and he did something that backfired on him, and now he's furious enough with me to want to have me killed. Probably the rest of the team, just to clean up loose ends."

    I sighed. "Of course he has. And right when I'd rather be spending the next few days upgrading with everything my passenger figured out during the ABB fight. Alright, tell me what you can, while I prep a few things, and I'll be on my way shortly."

    "His name is Coil, and yes, he's an actual cape. His power is a shaker/thinker combination, some sort of probability manipulation. Not perfect timing like March had, but if he's able to boost your luck, a heist becomes much more likely to succeed, and he can tell if your luck is going to be bad that day . . ."

    I listened with half an ear while I pulled up everything known about Coil and his mercenaries. The technology they used was laughable by comparison with what I was capable of. Hopefully he wouldn't have some sort of surprise to pull out of his ass like the ABB had, but either way I was going to over-prepare with every last possible second available.

    At the scale I operated at, he was a mosquito, but even as an annoyance, Coil had decided to become too much for me to put up with.
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    I'm pretty sure that Lisa knows what Coil's power is and her not knowing is fanon.
     
    Daxus1120 said:
    Interesting omake and also true, Joe can basically deal with Coil easily, the snake bastard has nothing that can even harm Joe and Joe will aim for the overkill option if necessary. The only reason is because tattletale(not shocking, he basically saves her life and that's how she repays, always holding back useful info), it takes until Coil decides to kill them all that will finally push her.
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    To be fair she's right to do so in this case. Coil either has her bugged followed or tortured constantly incase she starts tattling on the wrong snake in the grass. Even if Joe were to talk to her in his warehouse, once she leaves it's one torture session away from making it worse than pointless and they'll be able be none the wiser.
     
    Broovian said:
    To be fair she's right to do so in this case. Coil either has her bugged followed or tortured constantly incase she starts tattling on the wrong snake in the grass. Even if Joe were to talk to her in his warehouse, once she leaves it's one torture session away from making it worse than pointless and they'll be able be none the wiser.
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    You are aware of the indestructible watches that have a warning system against kidnapping and defensive mode with shields that can tank anything short of a annihilator attack, like Joe said it can take attacks from even EBs, also the watches have a anti-theft system, tracking options and bunch of more things. Plus Joe(and survey) hacking ability to remove any and all bugged(wire tap). Want me to keep adding on why Tattletale doesn't have to worry about getting torture or anything?

    Edit: I think even lord confirmed Coil will have a difficult time even do it because of said watches, or won't even do it for fear that Joe will immediately track him. Coil is not dumb enough to bring attention to himself and especially on how each undersider basically have trackers on them.
     
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    Or at least, that's what Joe's passenger thinks, because it runs on fanon.

    So if Tattletale happens to lie in a way that her power tells her he'll believe . . .
     
    Daxus1120 said:
    You are aware of the indestructible watches that have a warning system against kidnapping and defensive mode with shields that can tank anything short of a annihilator attack, like Joe said it can take attacks from even EBs, also the watches have a anti-theft system, tracking options and bunch of more things. Plus Joe(and survey) hacking ability to remove any and all bugged(wire tap). Want me to keep adding on why Tattletale doesn't have to worry about getting torture or anything?
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    Sorry I meant to add that I was talking about in story, not the omake. As for the watches and what not, that is a recent development that will take a hot second she doesn't have to get into her head. For as big and dense as these chapters are, time moves incredibly slowly and she is understandably hesitant to go to Joe for things.
     
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    A couple thoughts here.

    So if Reinforcement strengthens objects by replacing imperfections with prana/mana/od... is it actually of any use to Joe whose work is literally perfect and flawless? There's nothing there to reinforce. He could use it on his own body, I suppose, or things he didn't craft - this could help prevent building collapse, or turn a sheaf of paper into a durable shield. Although he can already do those things through Alchemy, better and cheaper.

    I haven't found anything in Fate Canon suggesting a Magic Crest and a Reality Marble are mutually exclusive, merely that Reality Marbles are incredibly rare, and don't necessarily belong to families of Magi as they aren't genetic unlike Magic Circuits. I haven't found anything one way or the other on whether Reality Marbles limit Magecraft. Shirou's Magecraft was limited because he was cripplingly over-specialized. His Origin was Sword, his Element was Sword, his Reality Marble was Sword... and he just had shitty Magic circuits and no education to start with, so he took the one tool he had and ran with it. That might not necessarily apply to other Marble users. This is also partially because of his own situation: having the sheath Avalon implanted into his body at such a young age changed his Origin to Sword. If Joe were to get a Reality Marble, he already has incredibly high-quality Magic Circuits- and more of them than Shirou - a better Magic education with broader areas of study, perks to reduce the amount of effort needed to learn a subject, and he's not so over-specialized. I don't think it would be a drawback, but I do think it would be just another big gun he has no need of. What could his Reality Marble possibly do that he can't achieve with technology for a lower cost?
     
    Broovian said:
    Sorry I meant to add that I was talking about in story, not the omake. As for the watches and what not, that is a recent development that will take a hot second she doesn't have to get into her head. For as big and dense as these chapters are, time moves incredibly slowly and she is understandably hesitant to go to Joe for things.
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    ...you aware what tattletale power is right? Plus the watches function was explained to the other undersiders and again tattletale power already figure out the rest, she knows that as long as she have the watch, Coil won't be able to hurt her without alerting Joe(or other in Joe secret team). I think there was a chapter and wog that even already confirms that tattletale is already aware that Coil can't torture her without there being risks.
     
    Logos01 said:
    What is the real kicker here however is how Mystery will function for him. Is there even a Gaia? Does being the only Thaumaturge of Bet make his works ultimate god-tier?
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    It shouldn't matter if there is a Gaia or not, tbh. Both because Joe's magic circuits and associated peripherals are fiat-backed, and also because Gaia is kind of a red herring that obscures what Mystery and magecraft are really about.

    Like, "Gaia" is just another word for the worlds (i.e. the textures) that humans and gods have lived within. And those worlds and textures have changed wildly over time. All of those textures have their own rules, by which some things are impossible for humans (i.e. true magic) and some things are everyday occurrences (i.e. natural law).

    Mysteries are the things that live in-between those two realms: things that haven't been reduced to mere reality and brought under the umbrella of natural law, but which haven't proven to be absolutely "impossible", either. Mysteries are unanswered questions, obsolete theories, wild hypotheticals, hopes and dreams and fears. The boundaries of "possibility" are as much a matter of lived experience as of deterministic physics.

    People shit-talk Worm in Nasuverse crossovers because humanity as a whole hasn't gotten stronger - they don't even have that sweet Age of the Gods flex! - but the Wormverse is absolutely a place where everything is possible and nothing is forbidden. For humans, the Wormverse is a place where anything can happen, and none of it has been brought under the umbrella of natural law, because nobody has a clue as to how any of it works! The world is teeming with mysteries in the purest of form.

    And that's before getting into the divine mandate from the Forge that Parahuman powers count as magic.

    Thematically speaking, the Nasuverse was the perfect way to reveal to Joe that his powers are based upon fiction, because magecraft is the art of breathing life into fantasy; of spending Mana and Od to briefly force a particular theory or justification or rationale to come "true". To take up a counterfactual and sharpen it to such a razor edge that, for a time, it can surpass its own insubstantiality and cut into the real world.

    It would be one of the single most powerful magic systems Joe has access to - if he was the kind of person who could let a Mystery lie. Too bad he's a scientist!

    "Joe is his own worst enemy" strikes again!
     
    Daxus1120 said:
    ...you aware what tattletale power is right? Plus the watches function was explained to the other undersiders and again tattletale power already figure out the rest, she knows that as long as she have the watch, Coil won't be able to hurt her without alerting Joe(or other in Joe secret team). I think there was a chapter and wog that even already confirms that tattletale is already aware that Coil can't torture her without there being risks.
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    What part of doesn't have time didn't you get? It hadn't been that long since he gave the watches, she can't verify things considering what Joe and his stuff does to her, also the ABB just got finished throwing themselves in his FTL vibrosword leaving him in an absolute state. A lot of stuff is happening at once.
     
    Cerridwen said:
    A couple thoughts here.

    So if Reinforcement strengthens objects by replacing imperfections with prana/mana/od... is it actually of any use to Joe whose work is literally perfect and flawless? There's nothing there to reinforce. He could use it on his own body, I suppose, or things he didn't craft - this could help prevent building collapse, or turn a sheaf of paper into a durable shield. Although he can already do those things through Alchemy, better and cheaper.
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    TYPE-MOON Wiki said:
    Is the most difficult Magecraft with the purpose of pushing a basis to the utmost limit. It is the foundation of all Magecraft that enhance the existence of the target by pouring Magical Energy, but as no clear expression of how much it can be enhanced is defined, almighty reinforcements are rare. It is the same as adding something to an object that is already complete, in case of failure the target will receive it as a poison. Success requires a good grasp of the inner structure to fill openings with Magical Energy. Reinforcing the purpose of existence would be increasing the sharpness of a knife, the nourishment of food, or in the case of a living creature, physical strength and durability. It is impossible to reinforce something vague. As living things will resist invasion of Magical Energy, reinforcing someone else is the hardest.
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    Reinforcement has nothing to do with fixing imperfection instead you fill an inner structure with magical energy thereby making it conceptually better at doing whatever it does if anything Joe's items would probably be better at reinforcement and could take more magic than normal.
     
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    LordRoustabout said:
    Waste Not (Monster Hunter) 300:
    You have found out a great secret in the blacksmithing trade - the reason that most blacksmiths usually ask for so many materials to make a certain weapon or armor isn't because its material intensive, but because they can make one for half of the materials and either sell the rest or make another to sell at a profit. The bastards! You have figured out how to use less materials to gain the same results when it comes to crafting your own weapons and armor. At first it may just be an ore or two less, but with enough practice you can reduce the amount of materials needed for a project by half (rounded down). As an added bonus, with enough practice, you have a 50% chance to not require high-grade or legendary materials (Rubied, Plates, etc) to make an item, provided you can supplement the build with excess materials.
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    I think they used the "waste not" meaning it was a 50 - 50 chance on it not working or working to supplement The cost they payed in transmuting it would be really risky.
     
    Graviator said:
    Okay, if a soul truly has infinite value, what's the value of a quarter of a soul? What about a millionth of a soul? Infinite.

    Arguably, Rationing alone lets him spend only as much soul as he needs to, which would let him get unlimited infinitely valuable uses out of a single infinitely valuable soul.

    On the other hand, that very property of subtracting infinities makes a mockery of "equivalent" exchange, so the value of a soul can't actually be infinite here.
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    Here's how I see it: You have two 'layers' of reality. The lower layer, the Material World, contains matter (baryonic, dark, exotic, etc.), and physical energy (heat, light, sound, gravity, kinetic, etc.). The higher layer, the Immaterial World, contains Souls and the afterlife, though WOG says that in the Wormverse the Shardspace is the only real afterlife. The Immaterial is infinite unlike the Material, and thus Souls are infinite as well. The Soul can potentially grant powers such as magic and aura depending on either the Universe you're in or the interference of a Sufficiently Power Being/Sufficiently Advanced Technology. However, while the Soul is infinite, the power it can grant is not. Basically, the Immaterial is an infinite body of water. The Soul is your portion of that water, which is also infinite. However, you can only gain access to that water via a 'Well' that connects your Mind & Body to your Soul. And that Well is a choke point. You can only pull so much water through that Well at any given moment. And depending on the nature of the power and energy your Soul provides you, you may only be able to pull so much energy within a given time period before your Well gets damaged and needs to be shut down for repairs, like overloading your Magic Circuits resulting in you having to wait for them to heal, and depending on how they were overloaded and by how much, you may even have a permanent loss in your maximum power. So when doing Alchemy with Souls as the cost, you aren't so much burning the Soul for fuel as taking apart the Well for materials. If the Well is fully deconstructed, congrats, you don't have any connection to the Material, and you are now dead as your Body is cut off from your Soul. It's also why you have a finite amount of Aura, as your Body can only hold on to so much Aura at once, and when damaged can't regenerate faster than the Well can pull in more Aura. That's what That Undefinable Thing means when it says "While the soul is infinite, it can be diminished and grown," it's referring to the Well or the Light of the Soul rather than the actual Soul itself. Also, I believe the Celestial Forge is giving Joe/Apeiron access to more Well's, each one having different types of energy they deliver from his Soul, with any that share a given name (Mana, Prana, Aura, Magicka, etc.) being combined, increasing the size of that particular Well and giving him more options on what he can possibly do with that particular type of energy.
     
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    Daxus1120 said:
    You are aware of the indestructible watches that have a warning system against kidnapping and defensive mode with shields that can tank anything short of a annihilator attack, like Joe said it can take attacks from even EBs, also the watches have a anti-theft system, tracking options and bunch of more things. Plus Joe(and survey) hacking ability to remove any and all bugged(wire tap). Want me to keep adding on why Tattletale doesn't have to worry about getting torture or anything?

    Edit: I think even lord confirmed Coil will have a difficult time even do it because of said watches, or won't even do it for fear that Joe will immediately track him. Coil is not dumb enough to bring attention to himself and especially on how each undersider basically have trackers on them.
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    Correction: The Undersiders' watches' shields "will hold against most man-portable weapons, but sustained damage or extremely strong attacks could bring it down. You're at least good for a 50 cal." It's only the watches themselves that have the short of annihilator effect durability.
    WoG on the forcefield strength:
    The field can stop at least a .50 cal without breaking. Constant barrage on any level can overload it, and the closer you are to it's upper limit the faster it comes down. It could take a lot more handgun rounds that it could from a .50 cal machine gun. The point is the field isn't designed to make you a tank. It's meant to stop a few hits while you get to cover or get out, and to give you time to call for help if neither of those are an option. Also, not all hits are equal, glancing shots are less draining that direct hits. Some effects can be blocked at almost no energy cost (Fog couldn't get past a sealed force field), where others are exceptionally draining (Persistent and direct hits from energy weapons).

    You're right on Coil's reaction to the watches. WoG:
    The watches will have a mixed reaction. On one hand it's a sign of deeper commitment, meaning he will be able to manipulate Apeiron more strongly through the Undersiders. On the other hand it limits the actions he can take against them. Persistent, unlockable communication, automatic warnings, medical scanners, and force fields are hell to work around. He's in a situation where his more heavy handed tactics are unavailable. There's also the issue that the watches are enchanted, meaning they won't draw attention and his only source of information on them is Tattletale. There's a good chance they've been undersold or downplayed by her to keep the advantage in her court.
    Coil can influence Apeiron through the Undersiders. He understands that, and knows that he will need to use a light touch in any manipulations. Probably his first attempt will be binging Apeiron closer to the Undersiders, since the more entanglements he has the stronger Coil's influence will be. Whether that will work out as planned is a less certain thing.

    SiegfriedisOP said:
    I'm pretty sure that Lisa knows what Coil's power is and her not knowing is fanon.
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    She definitely knows more about it than we're lead to believe. However, the only definite part we do know is she told Taylor the details of his power after the Leviathan attack. To be fair, the possibility exists that she might not know the full details now. Might. There's a lot we don't know and a lot of butterfies. We also know that Coil had asked her "if he really was creating the realities, or if it was solely in his perception, foretelling futures to the extent that they hinged on his actions." in the 8.x Interlude. We don't know when he asked or if it was in a throwaway timeline, but it was again at least some time during or before post-Levi.

    Albert said:
    Or at least, that's what Joe's passenger thinks, because it runs on fanon.

    So if Tattletale happens to lie in a way that her power tells her he'll believe . . .
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    Joe's passenger feeds Joe fanon feelings on characters and things, it doesn't feed him fanon "facts." It's very accurate in the truths of canon. The problem just lies in how hard it is to interpret that info.

    I think that when it comes down to it. Lisa wants to maintain control. While she might not hide info, she'll definitely package it to minimize harm to herself. She's afraid of Joe's reaction to finding out about Dinah and she's holding off on it. Whether her fears of Coil are justified or not doesn't change the fact that she'll still be trying to manipulate Joe, however subtly or whatever the reasons for doing so are.

    Edit: WoG:
    In Joe's last conversation with Lisa she implied that the situation around the bank robbery was delicate and Joe rushing into it could make things worse. Given the chance of endangering Taylor or the rest of the Undersiders he's agreed to back off until Lisa confirms her theories and assures him that it's safe to act. If not for the recent arrival of Noelle that point would probably have hit already, but with her Coil's desperation options have gotten a lot more severe.
    Lisa is in a bad spot. She has relied on her power for a long time and it is failing her spectacularly thanks to March's interference. Coil has her working overtime to try to cover blind spots, and on top of that he has her responsible for 'managing' Joe. She is also probably tangentially aware of Coil's emergency measures if someone comes after him (info drops on Cape I.D.s, Base self destruct, possibly releasing Noelle) so telling Joe while knowing he'll go white knight seems like a bad idea.

    Whether she can spin that explanation once the truth comes out is another matter. "I thought she was a political hostage." is slightly better than knowing she was a drugged up slave. A big reason Joe has soured to Lisa is he doesn't like being manipulated, and no matter what reasoning she puts forward this is going to come across as more of that.
    Joe tries to be understanding of circumstances, but this won't be good. There is a certain amount of ignorance Lisa will be able to plead. It will definitely sour things, but considering it will also probably trigger a crusade against Coil the precise allotment of blame is something that would be sorted out at a later time.
     
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    Cosmic said:
    I think that when it comes down to it. Lisa wants to maintain control. While she might not hide info, she'll definitely package it to minimize harm to herself. She's afraid of Joe's reaction to finding out about Dinah and she's holding off on it.
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    Part of it is definitely control I would argue the larger reason is Lisa the type of person who would happily let the world burn if those close to her were safe. Lisa isn't going to risk the lives of people she cares about to save some ten-year-old she doesn't know and telling Joe about Dinah would likely do that I doubt Taylor would sit on the side.
     
    tvo770 said:
    Part of it is definitely control I would argue the larger reason is Lisa the type of person who would happily let the world burn if those close to her were safe. Lisa isn't going to risk the lives of people she cares about to save some ten-year-old she doesn't know and telling Joe about Dinah would likely do that I doubt Taylor would sit on the side.
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    Ah yes, Taylor. That frightening do gooder that acts as Lisa's most reliable lever with Joe. If Joe finds out about Dinah, he'll grill Lisa and give her a chance to spin things. If Taylor finds out about Dinah, she'll go straight to Joe and go white knighting without giving Lisa a chance to change their minds. Then all hell breaks loose and as far as those two care she's on the wrong side.
     
    Broovian said:
    Then all hell breaks loose and as far as those two care she's on the wrong side.
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    I like to laid that out, Joe is a cautious person and thanks to his experience he will not immediately jump to things without a great amount of assurance of dealing with any contingency Coil may have, because of his experience against Bakuda and her own contingency. The only one that would recklessly do it would be Taylor,Joe knows that, and wants to avoid it. But fact is Joe is becoming stronger and his ability to hack things is reaching a ridiculous level and add that with survey help. I wouldn't consider hell breaking loose actually happening since Joe can probably deal with the travelers without too much collateral damage once he really decides to go overkill to avoid any danger. But you can't denied the fact tattletale is kinda on the wrong side and Joe doesn't like being manipulated, either way things will soured between them once that fact gets brought to light.
     
    Daxus1120 said:
    I like to laid that out, Joe is a cautious person and thanks to his experience he will not immediately jump to things without a great amount of assurance of dealing with any contingency Coil may have, because of his experience against Bakuda and her own contingency. The only one that would recklessly do it would be Taylor,Joe knows that, and wants to avoid it. But fact is Joe is becoming stronger and his ability to hack things is reaching a ridiculous level and add that with survey help. I wouldn't consider hell breaking loose actually happening since Joe can probably deal with the travelers without too much collateral damage once he really decides to go overkill to avoid any danger. But you can't denied the fact tattletale is kinda on the wrong side and Joe doesn't like being manipulated, either way things will soured between them once that fact gets brought to light.
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    Yeah, there's no way of getting around things going sour with Lisa. As for things going to hell, its entirely dependent on Krouse not fucking things up when Apeirion comes a knocking, so you can see why I believe that things are going to go to hell. Between Coil sabotaging shit to save himself and Krouse being the fuckhead he is, there is little hope, except for a maybe a lucid Noelle coming in with a hail Mary toss hitting his white knight buttons. But she's already mostly shard, I doubt her shard will be having any of that.
     
    Broovian said:
    Yeah, there's no way of getting around things going sour with Lisa. As for things going to hell, its entirely dependent on Krouse not fucking things up when Apeirion comes a knocking, so you can see why I believe that things are going to go to hell. Between Coil sabotaging shit to save himself and Krouse being the fuckhead he is, there is little hope, except for a maybe a lucid Noelle coming in with a hail Mary toss hitting his white knight buttons. But she's already mostly shard, I doubt her shard will be having any of that.
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    So basically your talking about Canon, and it doesn't matter in the end, since the travelers are there things will go to hell, no matter what plans Tattletale thinks can make to avoid it(and let's be honest she has none that can avoid Noelle from going in a rampage, plus Krouse and Coil sabotage). Look at what happened when Coil got killed in canon, but at least with Joe being there the collateral will be reduce and casualties wouldn't be as bad compare to canon, so at least this version have better odds.
     
    Daxus1120 said:
    So basically your talking about Canon, and it doesn't matter in the end, since the travelers are there things will go to hell, no matter what plans Tattletale thinks can make to avoid it(and let's be honest she has none that can avoid Noelle from going in a rampage, plus Krouse and Coil sabotage). Look at what happened when Coil got killed in canon, but at least with Joe being there the collateral will be reduce and casualties wouldn't be as bad compare to canon, so at least this version have better odds.
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    Plus with Apeirion there, they may not immediately send in the Triumvirate, which means no evil Cauldron clones to expose the illuminati. I never read canon so I don't know all that happened after that but I assume a lot of chaos, death, and division. Hey, wasn't there wog in what would happen if Joe was copied?
     
    Broovian said:
    Yeah, there's no way of getting around things going sour with Lisa. As for things going to hell, its entirely dependent on Krouse not fucking things up when Apeirion comes a knocking, so you can see why I believe that things are going to go to hell. Between Coil sabotaging shit to save himself and Krouse being the fuckhead he is, there is little hope, except for a maybe a lucid Noelle coming in with a hail Mary toss hitting his white knight buttons. But she's already mostly shard, I doubt her shard will be having any of that.
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    Krouse will fuck things up regardless, and he's at the point where it's not like he's going to take 'no' for an answer from Joe. Dude expects Apeiron to fix Noelle entirely and to send him and his team home lickety split. Nevermind the fact that they have no way of knowing that Joe can target the right dimension in the first place. WIth them being Simurgh bombs (or suspected ones anyway in Joe's mindset), he's not likely to just let them walk away. Worst case scenario? Mr Hyde Apeiron if Krouse is feeling particularly vindictive by shifting Joe into Noelle's range.
     
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