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Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)

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TitanFrost said:
While the lofty near-utopian goals you've set out are something I agree ought to be strived for, specifics like this seem kind of arbitrary. I'm not a qualified psychologist and so can't say whether or not this method of therapy would be useful, but it would take me living in quite a different society for me to be able to trust some random official totally took away a majority of my memories for my own good. And even then, how could I trust in the memories of a society good enough to allow that if I also suspect they could have changed me to believe that in the first place?

This actually might be a process better suited for placement in an afterlife or reincarnation system, at least at the most extreme ends (dealing with people like the Nine and all).
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Thanks for the response.
As for that specific example... yeah, I'm not a real psychologist, just half remembered things from Psych 101, my own therapists, personal experience (with normal psych problems, not with mind wipes), and a lifetime of shower thoughts. The memory erasing was a re-occurring shower thought kind of thing as an alternative to execution (especially for a post-mortality society). I wasn't specifically thinking of it that way for Joe to use.

I agree with the idea that in that case some sort of re-incarnation would be preferable. The memory wipe thing would be a poor man's reincarnation, though with the option to retrieve the memories. I'm somewhat leaning towards the 'I think therefore I am' concept of a person *is* their memories, so memory death would be effectively the same as real death, which is why I mention getting them back. In a reincarnation system I would give people the option of regaining past life memories (after they are an adult and only if they want them)

Also, as for the whole 'random official taking away the majority of your memories' thing? That would also be something that would be reserved for people whom real therapy has failed and/or in replacement for execution.

My 'near-Utopia' society concept is heavily flawed I know, but the main trouble is that we keep having flawed humans making the decisions. I don't believe that a Utopia is possible until we have a self correcting system such as a law-making AI (I doubt that we can make a perfect legal/societal system, but a self-correcting one would be a good start)

... Man talking to people is hard. See my signature.


EDIT: added 2 paragraphs
 
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Pettrip said:


My take on Apeiron's beastmode

In the story there was no mention of a tail, but he does look good with the tail so nyeehhhh, if i could have some more free time i might clean this model

Hope you like this Lord Roustabout , i really enjoy you work
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That looks AMAZING, that's got to be how Joe's look like while going beast mode. Seriously your art work looks clean and cool, I hope Lord sees this!
 
Pettrip said:


My take on Apeiron's beastmode

In the story there was no mention of a tail, but he does look good with the tail so nyeehhhh, if i could have some more free time i might clean this up.

Hope you like this Lord Roustabout , i really enjoy you work
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Damn dude, wow. That's just plain awesome on all accounts, but it also really helps visualize how the giant saber teeth don't get in the way of his... everything face related, I guess.
 
Pettrip said:


My take on Apeiron's beastmode

In the story there was no mention of a tail, but he does look good with the tail so nyeehhhh, if i could have some more free time i might clean this up.

Hope you like this Lord Roustabout , i really enjoy you work
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Amazing artwork of Apeirons Zoanthrope transformation.

One nit-pick though. He has bristly fur/hair on his body when transformed. Your picture has him more naked than a naked mole-rat (Garment and ruined costume not-withstnding).
 
Pettrip said:


My take on Apeiron's beastmode

In the story there was no mention of a tail, but he does look good with the tail so nyeehhhh, if i could have some more free time i might clean this up.

Hope you like this Lord Roustabout , i really enjoy you work
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Apieron *Has a beast mode*
Every Furry/Case 53 fetishist: It's free fuckin real estate!

Would people really think that Apieron is secretly a Case 53? Tinkers being able to transform into montrous forms is already a known thing since Lab Rat, bullshit Apieron being able to do that wouldn't seem too farfetched for them.
 
Denty said:
Apieron *Has a beast mode*
Every Furry/Case 53 fetishist: It's free fuckin real estate!

Would people really think that Apieron is secretly a Case 53? Tinkers being able to transform into montrous forms is already a known thing since Lab Rat, bullshit Apieron being able to do that wouldn't seem too farfetched for them.
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Well, combined with the fact that he seems to have a soft spot for weld and that he mentioned that he has healing tech to fight mutations. It's not an completely unreasonable assumption. It doesn't help that he just randomly transformed mid battle and had to drink something to change back. So people seeing it as he cured himself in a way that needs maintenance and once his healing/cure gets overtaxed, he reverts back to his case 53 form.
 
The Changer aspect is less important than the unholy blood strings throughout his 'body'. That showed up earlier and is more indicative of being a case 53 or at least in a breaker state.

The Antediluvian crocodog did apparently have a tail, but a really stubby one in comparison to the length of the body. So less Godzilla and more Gamera.
 
Maple-cookies said:
Well, combined with the fact that he seems to have a soft spot for weld and that he mentioned that he has healing tech to fight mutations.
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His connection to Weld is not publicly known yet. Some case 53's might think that he was one, but it's more likely that they will think it's a changer effect.

Once his association with Garment becomes known. People will think he put in the effort to help her (the shipping will get real). And it will become known, it's just a matter of time. One of the possible ways for it to come out is he will tinker tech shop security to hell and back (or his duplicates will).

And if Accord knows, it's only a matter of time till other thinkers figure it out. Specially since a lot more resources will be allocated to analysis of everything about him. Before it was some resources, now it will be the majority of the PRT think tank. And they might think he is part of a cluster, so other capes that showed Up at the same time will be cross checked. And if Accord can tell at a glance that they are connected (twice now), other thinkers will figure it out if they focus on analysis a few days/weeks.

Plus if (read when) the empire 88 try and press gang Garment, specially after the cape fashion war started, it's unlikely Joe or his duplicates will just let it happen. That or the store automated security system.
 
Maple-cookies said:
Well, combined with the fact that he seems to have a soft spot for weld and that he mentioned that he has healing tech to fight mutations.
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Neither is known to general public.
If Weld states his opinion and PRT releases related data on the matter it might sway current public opinion. But PRT probably won't consider him C53. Apeiron earned a lot of attention from PRT to involve PRT's thinkers and Apeiron is not yet thinker proof. I think thinkers are likely to dismiss theory of Apeiron being C53. But taking into account that Apeiron does have some mutations and alterations now, there likely going to be a lot of interesting theories within PRT.
Maple-cookies said:
It doesn't help that he just randomly transformed mid battle and had to drink something to change back. So people seeing it as he cured himself in a way that needs maintenance and once his healing/cure gets overtaxed, he reverts back to his case 53 form.
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Or that he had some mutagen vials (Lung-in-a-bottle) on him that got shattered and transformed him. With how much damage he got and with all those 'exotic' energies visibly ripping him in parts all bets will be off until someone provides more solid facts. PHO will be battling for days)

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Maple-cookies said:
he mentioned that he has healing tech to fight mutations.
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With how over the top Apeiron's technology and building speed is, plus Apeiron's supposed thinker powers, ties to Tattletale, this fact loses relevance.
Previously normalish building speed was assumed, which meant that Apeiron spent weeks developing anti-mutation tech.
Now however it gains new light: Backuda is a bomb tinker, her bombs have exotic effects => lets spend half an hour making mutation healing tech just in case of mutating bomb.
On top of that, said tech might have been derived from contact with Panacea. If that's the case, he couldn't have healed himself for the talk with Panacea.
 
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zerak said:
Plus if (read when) the empire 88 try and press gang Garment, specially after the cape fashion war started, it's unlikely Joe or his duplicates will just let it happen. That or the store automated security system.
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They won't press gang Garment, as a Case 53 she would be driven of by them depending on how close she is to their turf.

I hope that Joe finishes the Security system so that a portion of the 88 gang gets captured.
 
andreykl said:
Neither is known to general public.
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Oops, I forgot about that part. i will grant you that.

andreykl said:
Or that he had some mutagen vials (Lung-in-a-bottle) on him that got shattered and transformed him. With how much damage he got and with all those 'exotic' energies visibly ripping him in parts all bets will be off until someone provides more solid facts. PHO will be battling for days)
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I don't know about that, firstly because changer tech is outside of his range of things he shown before, secondly when he changed, there was no drop in fighting skill, in fact it improved, which may point to familiarity of that form, and lastly why would he invest into a changer form when he already has a red berserker form. of course the response people could give might be "yeah but it's apeiron" and i would have to concede.

andreykl said:
Edit:
With how over the top Apeiron's technology and building speed is, plus Apeiron's supposed thinker powers, ties to Tattletale, this fact loses relevance.
Previously normalish building speed was assumed, which meant that Apeiron spent weeks developing anti-mutation tech.
Now however it gains new light: Backuda is a bomb tinker, her bombs have exotic effects => lets spend half an hour making mutation healing tech just in case of mutating bomb.
On top of that said tech might have been derived from contact with Panacea, if that's the case, he couldn't have healed himself for the talk with Panacea.
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i suppose a tinker of powers could fit all of these things that he does, and so i guess apeiron being a case 53 would stay as a niche theory.
 
Introverted said:
They won't press gang Garment, as a Case 53 she would be driven of by them depending on how close she is to their turf.

I hope that Joe finishes the Security system so that a portion of the 88 gang gets captured.
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She is a grey area, since her body isn't there. The leadership doesn't really care about colour too much (they are still racists), they use it as a tool, so if they can swing something on a technicality they will.

Anyway, it's a choice between a disembodied cape (who can be white) or an Arab. Since they are the only 2 fashion capes. Though good old normal fashion designers are also an option.
 
Maple-cookies said:
I don't know about that, firstly because changer tech is outside of his range of things he shown before
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'Mutation vials' are less changer tech and more wet-tinkering, and PHO in chapter 31 already suspects Apeiron in being capable of wet-tinkering. With how far such theories can go, delayed retrovirus in a vial theory is among plausible ones. And since such theory is a scarier one it is the 'fun' one to discuss.

Apeiron is an out of context problem, theories will be all over the board regardless of what PRT or Apeiron say.

P.S. Eventually he might get labeled Trump:YES, but even then there will be theories about Apeiron 'faking' it and I think so far Apeiron looks a lot more like a tinker that didn't get a memo about having limitations.
 
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zerak said:
She is a grey area, since her body isn't there. The leadership doesn't really care about colour too much (they are still racists), they use it as a tool, so if they can swing something on a technicality they will.

Anyway, it's a choice between a disembodied cape (who can be white) or an Arab. Since they are the only 2 fashion capes. Though good old normal fashion designers are also an option.
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Err... No.

The origin of Empire 88 is they are a combination of white supremacists and racists of all stripes and requires vigorous assault of non-whites to advance in their organization.

Garment as a C53 is not white therefor they will not attempt a recruitment. If they really need a costume upgrade they would you know commission a work from her like normal people.
 
Introverted said:
Err... No.

The origin of Empire 88 is they are a combination of white supremacists and racists of all stripes and requires vigorous assault of non-whites to advance in their organization.

Garment as a C53 is not white therefor they will not attempt a recruitment. If they really need a costume upgrade they would you know commission a work from her like normal people.
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That's is indeed a very likely outcome.
 
So, after dreaming of this fic a bit last night, (as one does), I had a thought...

LordRoustabout said:
However, they also have the ability to 'evolve' overtime, gaining additional armor and improvements to features such as onboard thrusters. With a bit of study, it might be possible to apply this adaptive behavior to other materials, encouraging them to improve themselves over time.
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Other materials. Hmm. Could that apply to...PEOPLE? The way it is worded means it likely would have to be deliberate, though perhaps once Joe gets in the habit it might become automatic.. so it is doubtful that it was done to Chen. But, now they (the clones, that is) are working on their own body, and carefully at that, so will have time to think of many options. So could Joe apply Heretical Adaptation to his own body?? Because, to be frank, he needs a way to improve his power over time.... lol.

Edit: just posted this in question form over to the AO3, so hopefully LordR will answer this question.
 
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zerak said:
She is a grey area, since her body isn't there. The leadership doesn't really care about colour too much (they are still racists), they use it as a tool, so if they can swing something on a technicality they will.

Anyway, it's a choice between a disembodied cape (who can be white) or an Arab. Since they are the only 2 fashion capes. Though good old normal fashion designers are also an option.
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No one knew Parian's race/religion/skin tone until after Leviathan.
She had actually done that on purpose, her reveal of her ancestry was supposed to help start debate about assumptions in the industry.
 
Duplicate Joe: "Okaaay, we're almost done fixing him. Just needs some finishing touches, aaand... Done! Wait, what the--"
Apparently, healing Apeiron from that amount of damage counted as rebuilding, with all the possible perks kicking in. It wasn't done completely by hand, so at least his body hasn't suddenly turned into a divine object. But it still looked unbelievably perfect, like something right out of a fairy tale...
And there were now five of him.
 
Wingboner said:
It wasn't done completely by hand, so at least his body hasn't suddenly turned into a divine object.
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AntaeusTheGiant said:
I'm pretty sure that as a Fate-favored Demigod son of Hephaestus his body already counts as a divine object.
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Given the genetic analysis we saw in story, it seems more like the divine aspects of his body are only in addition to his mortal components. Reworking his base flesh to be divine in and of itself could prove quite interesting. Maybe his body would shift to physically reflect his divine/spiritual nature, beyond just getting super buff. I'm reminded of UnderTale, where the bodies of monsters are so varied because they're magical constructs that reflect the nature of their soul. I'm pretty sure that was lore and not headcanon. Eh, still serves well for an example at least. Though hopefully Joe wouldn't end up as a snowflake or an airplane.
 
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stygian_nymph said:
The moment someone was influenced by the Simurgh is the moment they die.
Also any change in the brain partitions that are responsible for making decisions is tantamount to "killing" oneself. Worm demonstrated people as meat bags, so even parahuman trigger is the same as killing the current self. Heck, even breaker abilities keep killing parahumans over and over unless the shards go back in time to grab the parahuman before using their ability which I doubt they would do.
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That's a pretty extreme view. Even just saying hello to someone affects their brain and future decisions.

I think there's a spectrum of minds. There are small incremental changes daily and we consider closely related mind states as the same person. Any kind of master power/tech is just a large external change to the mind state. They're just a modified version of yourself. For example, if a loved one dies, your worldview might change, but it's not correct to say you died.

The Simurgh doesn't overtly mind control people. She just modifies the most extreme parts of you so that one day you'll snap.
 
FireCire said:
That's a pretty extreme view. Even just saying hello to someone affects their brain and future decisions.

I think there's a spectrum of minds. There are small incremental changes daily and we consider closely related mind states as the same person. Any kind of master power/tech is just a large external change to the mind state. They're just a modified version of yourself. For example, if a loved one dies, your worldview might change, but it's not correct to say you died.

The Simurgh doesn't overtly mind control people. She just modifies the most extreme parts of you so that one day you'll snap.
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No I'm not against any brain modifications if the one doing it understand what they are doing and is concerned about the one whom the modification done to them.
Remember that at the end of things Shards view parahumans as hosts and "data collectors", and they use parahumans to test powers the entities obtained from their observations of previous civilizations or previous exotic power interactions where the entities themselves may not understand why the end result was achieved, so while any modification may appear insignificant from outside perspective, the shards may have achieved it by completely rewriting their hosts/targets or by just destroying and recreating whole parts of the host/target to achieve the desired result.
 
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