- Location
- Earth
I have only included the perks of the original v1 Celestial Forge in the threadmarked info post.
Roust does not use everything from it though since he hasn't gotten around to watching/reading everything.
Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)
- Thread starter LordRoustabout
- Start date
Roust does not use everything from it though since he hasn't gotten around to watching/reading everything.
I was actually wondering about further acceleration of the computer core and I remembered he has Star Trek engineering now; he can build FTL computers. By which we mean build a bunch of miniature warp-coils into the thing such that space time within it is distorted enough that the data transfers happen at FTL speeds. This is canon(-ish) btw to TNG and explains how the computer always knows how to route calls on board so fast.
Damn it @LordRoustabout the way you wrote the characters are too damn good. That our emotions as readers are actually brought to bare.
And the rest of you lot. Are a fun and active community? Are we a community?
Anyways good interactions. Have a good morning, good afternoon and good night where ever you live.
And the rest of you lot. Are a fun and active community? Are we a community?
Anyways good interactions. Have a good morning, good afternoon and good night where ever you live.
Shadow Archon
Protoss Preserver
- Location
- Louisiana
Warp works as a bubble around the ship while Eezo affects the mass of the ship itself. So, it's very much possible for both of them to be active at once. Another FTL that can be stacked on top of that is Halo's Slipstream. While it's another dimension, traveling through it explicitly is impacted by how fast your sub-light engines are. So, if you can already go faster than light in real-space, then you'll be really zooming in Slipspace.
There's also Star Wars Hyperspace, whatever the Transformers use as FTL, Fold Space from Macross, and presumably 40k's Warp drive as well. Those probably can't be stacked, but Hyperspace and Fold Space already are extragalactic capable FTLs anyways.
Too bad Lord doesn't have Stargate on the perk list.
He has Cybertronian Ground/Space Bridges, which are Stargates that can cover distances of less than a light year too. They still have the same problem of requiring a terminal at each end though.
Good point, looks promising. Maybe starting at zero mass is the trick to sustaining Transwarp….
You know, I kinda always wondered if Halo Slipspace and Andromeda's Quantum Slipstream are the same place, or same sort of place anyway. They seem to share the quirk of requiring sapience to navigate properly…
Hyperdrive is only kinda-sorta an extra dimension so it might be stackable; one of its main issues is that the path has to be completely empty of even space dust or, well, one grain of dust at sufficient velocity… so anyway, it's clearly part of conventional 4-space which means it should be compatible with the rest. In fact sticking a Star Trek deflector on a Star Wars FTL vehicle is kind of a dream combo. Transformers on the other hand use yet another spare dimension with different physical laws but then they use it for everything including their own brains. The Warp? Just no. Yeah it's technically the fastest, potentially anyway, but no. Joe doesn't have a Navigator, or a sample of the Navigator Gene to start with so only calculated jumps could work and those are slow and range-limited. The less said about what happens when sapient life starts messing around with the sea of souls the better too. Not sure about fold-space though- from the way Lord described the fold-carbon annihilation reactors it seems like another partial extra dimension like hyperdrive so perhaps a Hyperfold drive could be possible?
MagicalAmbitions
the rose in your vase
- Pronouns
- She/Her
i don't know much about 40k or the rest of the context of this FTL discussion but it seems like the slowness and range-limitedness of these calculated jumps would be something that Joe could compensate for with the spiritron supercomputer in his basement which is built to simulate all of reality including higher-level metaphysics?
Shadow Archon
Protoss Preserver
- Location
- Louisiana
I'll refrain from the spaghetti posting as that's actually against the rules on this site.
1. I was mostly thinking about their Hyperspace FTL. The Asgards had hyperspace that could let them travel from one galaxy to another while tractoring another ship. It's one of sci-fi's more faster FTLs on its own, when not including ones that have an instant travel time.
Then there's the Ancient Wormhole drive which is exactly that... Also, there's the alternate reality drive and the Quantum Mirror.
2. Whatever works and doesn't turn humans into salamanders! There's also Quantum Slipstream from Trek, which Joe may or may not have knowledge of in his brain. Not as fast as Transwarp, but it's definitely faster than Warp given the episode Timeless.
3. I think Andromeda's is far more limited. You have to follow the strings or else, and if you get stranded away from any point without slippoints, you can't enter slipstream. With Halo's, you're not so limited. You can make a jump into slipstream space whenever. There are Slipspace points that make travel faster and easier, but they aren't a hard necessity like Andromeda's.
If anything, Halo's FTL is more like Babylon 5's with it being another universe with different physics.
4. That's because planets, stars, and asteroids leave a mass shadow in Star Wars's Hyperspace. It's a big question mark whether or not STL speeds affect ships in Hyperspace, but it is known that if a fighter or shuttle leaves a ship in hyperspace without an active hyperdrive, they immediately get shunted back into real space.
It should be noted that 40k's Warp should be calm in Bet. No Chaos Gods. No demons. And given the weird nature of fiat making these laws of physics of multiple universes suddenly come into being for Joe, it's not really clear if anyone will even be able to interact with the Warp besides Joe on a psychic level.
I don't know anything about Transformer's FTL, but Fold Space is pretty damn amazing FTL. The main time issue with using SuperDimension space or Fold Space as FTL are Fold Vaults. They're basically crinkles of Fold Space that are jutting out into real space, and basically slow ships down going through them. They also cause time to be discontinuous for those in Fold Space versus those in real space. Hours in Fold Space can end up being days in realspace for an example. Still, with the advances humanity made in Macross, over the course of ~50 years humanity went from single planet to extra-galactic.
However, that's only when dealing with Fold Drives made using Fold Carbon. If you create one using Fold Quartz, a 11th dimensional material, then traveling in Fold Space lets you ignore faults completely, to the point that you can transmit signals and travel anywhere in the universe instantaneously. The main issue in Macross is that only the Vajra can create and refine Fold Quartz. That's not an issue for Joe, who's already in the process of mass producing it.
That means he already has an instant method of FTL essentially. That and an Endbringer killer through Dimension Eaters. It's technology that lets you make micro-black hole bullets and missiles that destructively jettison the mass it eats into fold space. The big ones, namely those that are two meters in height, can destroy planets.
1. I was mostly thinking about their Hyperspace FTL. The Asgards had hyperspace that could let them travel from one galaxy to another while tractoring another ship. It's one of sci-fi's more faster FTLs on its own, when not including ones that have an instant travel time.
Then there's the Ancient Wormhole drive which is exactly that... Also, there's the alternate reality drive and the Quantum Mirror.
2. Whatever works and doesn't turn humans into salamanders! There's also Quantum Slipstream from Trek, which Joe may or may not have knowledge of in his brain. Not as fast as Transwarp, but it's definitely faster than Warp given the episode Timeless.
3. I think Andromeda's is far more limited. You have to follow the strings or else, and if you get stranded away from any point without slippoints, you can't enter slipstream. With Halo's, you're not so limited. You can make a jump into slipstream space whenever. There are Slipspace points that make travel faster and easier, but they aren't a hard necessity like Andromeda's.
If anything, Halo's FTL is more like Babylon 5's with it being another universe with different physics.
4. That's because planets, stars, and asteroids leave a mass shadow in Star Wars's Hyperspace. It's a big question mark whether or not STL speeds affect ships in Hyperspace, but it is known that if a fighter or shuttle leaves a ship in hyperspace without an active hyperdrive, they immediately get shunted back into real space.
It should be noted that 40k's Warp should be calm in Bet. No Chaos Gods. No demons. And given the weird nature of fiat making these laws of physics of multiple universes suddenly come into being for Joe, it's not really clear if anyone will even be able to interact with the Warp besides Joe on a psychic level.
I don't know anything about Transformer's FTL, but Fold Space is pretty damn amazing FTL. The main time issue with using SuperDimension space or Fold Space as FTL are Fold Vaults. They're basically crinkles of Fold Space that are jutting out into real space, and basically slow ships down going through them. They also cause time to be discontinuous for those in Fold Space versus those in real space. Hours in Fold Space can end up being days in realspace for an example. Still, with the advances humanity made in Macross, over the course of ~50 years humanity went from single planet to extra-galactic.
However, that's only when dealing with Fold Drives made using Fold Carbon. If you create one using Fold Quartz, a 11th dimensional material, then traveling in Fold Space lets you ignore faults completely, to the point that you can transmit signals and travel anywhere in the universe instantaneously. The main issue in Macross is that only the Vajra can create and refine Fold Quartz. That's not an issue for Joe, who's already in the process of mass producing it.
That means he already has an instant method of FTL essentially. That and an Endbringer killer through Dimension Eaters. It's technology that lets you make micro-black hole bullets and missiles that destructively jettison the mass it eats into fold space. The big ones, namely those that are two meters in height, can destroy planets.
I want to start by saying this is completely intended as a point of discussion and not any kind of further argument about what should have happened. LordRoustabout is clearly wanting to move past this and I 100% support that. Not every chapter in a story this size is going to be without problems, and he has clearly had a lot of stuff going on, plus the subject matter is difficult.
That said, while going with the flow is a major aspect of what I and I think others are calling doormat behavior, there is also an aspect of outside aggression or attack for it to really fit. I mean technically everyone allows others or circumstances to choose your actions, there is never really a completely unlimited number of choices or responses to anything. Even if circumstances lead to only really one decision being viable, that doesn't make it doormat behavior. Equally a decision to be a doormat is a decision. So the fact that you choose to not respond or act, doesn't make it not doormat behavior. Every act of doormat behavior in Joe's life was a choice and a decision. We just want to see decisions that don't fit that paradigm.
So yes, there isn't any fixed rule on what constitutes doormat behavior, hence a lot of the back and forth in the thread. For me, it's just that almost every word, action and thought I see in the the chapter from Joe are about other people, or avoiding the situation. He spends a lot of time making sure the CF doesn't push back on Parian. He worries about Aisha, and Survey. There is a single sentence where he acknowledges that what happened is messed up, but it's immediately followed by but we have to ignore it for these reasons. I guess basically if I tried to envision a completely doormat reaction from Joe to Parian's actions, it would strongly resemble what we got in the chapter, just maybe a bit moreso. Of course this isn't helped by the fact that a non doormat reaction wouldn't really be significantly different either, not without going into pointless extremes. Really there is a narrow band of actual viable reactions that Joe could have in this situation so it makes it harder to make a strong point.
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You appear to be missing a closing bracket after the quotation marks
Edit: Went back to try to show, and messed up my post, so I had to fix it...
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Thanks, I fixed it.
So I need something to clear up
I remember when the chapter where Joe was in Titan form he made a lava bird
Was he able to make it cause of the elemental aspect or the material used?
I remember when the chapter where Joe was in Titan form he made a lava bird
Was he able to make it cause of the elemental aspect or the material used?
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Unfortunately it has more to do with the true randomness of warpspace. It's like predicting the weather, except it's directly influenced by sentient minds in addition to all those easily measured and observed physical phenomena. Oh and the rules that link input to output aren't consistent either. Maybe the Spiritron could compensate but frankly being a psyker and learning to read the currents is easier and faster, assuming you don't accidentally steer into a whirlpool and end up (if you're lucky) merely hundreds of light years off course. Less likely with no inhabitants actively trying to lead you into trouble but still an awful mess.
___
Nullius in verba
- Location
- a Pale Blue Dot
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
I checked back, and he used the new perk to draw out the energy to power the bird, which would have normally been lost to entropy, i.e. lava becomes normal rock.
I wonder what would happen if a Toaru jumpchain was implemented.
- Pronouns
- He
Randomness just means you lack informations. The spiritron won't have that problem, it simulate everything.
To Aru Railgun is on the Forge list. Joe would gain a random psy power (there's a list in the doc) starting at low level and quickly ramping up to level 5.
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I have finally caught up over the course of several months, holy shit what a ride. Is it weird I'm rooting for Joe's enemies in the same way I root for Saitama's?
I agree the Parian stuff is frustrating, but I have the feeling Joe is subconsciously avoiding making a link he already recognizes, because it would mean he had a hand in someone's trigger event, and with how seriously he treats those....
I agree the Parian stuff is frustrating, but I have the feeling Joe is subconsciously avoiding making a link he already recognizes, because it would mean he had a hand in someone's trigger event, and with how seriously he treats those....
MagicalAmbitions
the rose in your vase
- Pronouns
- She/Her
@LordRoustabout what is Joe's blood type? i just noticed upon rewatching and then looking through the fan wiki that every Medaka Box character seems to have type AB, and i think it would be very a very silly nod to this deep lore if rolling remodelling changed his blood type to AB to reflect this.
Cosmic
Novel Addict
- Location
- Library Nexus
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Is there a reason why for this? Also, does it relate at all to Japan's belief about blood type and personality?
EDIT: Quick Google search turns up: "because it's believed that an AB blood type means you're a genius." OR "because ABnormal"
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Well, I did find this quote from a while ago:
Also, Stargate is on the perk list. Xenoarchaeologist from the Stargate jump is in the Knowledge constellation for 600 points. It's focused on reverse engineering, but it does import Stargate metaphysics, so Joe could theoretically develop Stargate FTL on his own. It's also confirmed to come with Round Telephone (Stargate operation principles, not production, but once again, Joe could research it) and Toxicology Reports (puts traces of Naquadah into bloodstream, too small to use without resource duplication). Technically, this perk should also come with 'Unleash the Snark', but I think Lord mentioned that he was planning to leave that one out.
Oh my! Joe has enough trouble with just regular innuendo. Jack O'Neill-powered snarky innuendo would just about destroy any semblance of normal life… 🤣
Okay...so...if you want to skip it go ahead, but I do highly recommend you to at least take a look at the spoiler section. Totally understandable if you don't, but...well, I tried my best to be as articulate and...unheated...as possible. And when deciding how to respond on this chapter...I figured spoilers would be best for those who just want to skip it.
If you've made it through all the spoilers...thank you for your time and patience. And I hope I did a good enough job with my thoughts.
Okay...so it's taken me about a week to post because...well...I got heated. Reading the comments got me really, really heated. For lots of reasons. But mainly because it seemed like almost the entirety, at least in so it seems of those posting comments, of the community seems to have failed to grasp the understanding of what makes a doormat a doormat. And I do mean the entire community, both those who say he is a doormat have it wrong and fail to grasp it, and those who say he isn't are right, but are wrong and fail to grasp why he isn't. I couldn't figure out why until....
And thank you Vysirez, without this I'd likely still be confused and heated beyond belief. If I am right, you are correct in how everyone is viewing this whole doormat issue. And that view is why everyone is failing to understand whats going on. Because there is a fixed rule on what constitutes doormat behavior.
Mentality.
Specifically, the mentality known as Learned Helplessness. No matter where you go, or what doormat you meet, whether it's Pre-Jason Kaneki from Tokyo Ghoul, or Pre-Trigger Joe, and yes, even Taylor, they were all doormats. And while their doormatnish came in various flavors from Kaneki's 'Good people don't hurt others, so do what mama tells you and be a good person because your a good person right?' to both Joe and Taylor just being beaten down by their family and system respectively, the fundamental core of their decision making was driven by Learned Helplessness. And that is the defining factor on whether someone's reasonings and actions are determined to be that of a doormat or not.
Now take a look at the chapter again and look to see if any of Joe's decisions were fueled by the mentality of Learned Helplessness, and you'll find it wasn't. He has many, many, ways to bury Parian if he wishes, but he doesn't want to. Not because 'that's just how life works', or 'it is, what it is', or 'nobody would believe me anyways', or 'I don't have the power to make a difference', or 'nothing would change anyways' or any other trademark phrases one consistently hears from those suffering from Learned Helplessness. No, he chooses not to because it's already been handled to his satisfaction as it can be and he has bigger fish to fry, and that is as far from Learned Helpless as you can get.
If you've read this far, thank you for your time, patience and attention, and apologies if my points don't come out as clear as I hoped they would.
And thank you Vysirez, without this I'd likely still be confused and heated beyond belief. If I am right, you are correct in how everyone is viewing this whole doormat issue. And that view is why everyone is failing to understand whats going on. Because there is a fixed rule on what constitutes doormat behavior.
Mentality.
Specifically, the mentality known as Learned Helplessness. No matter where you go, or what doormat you meet, whether it's Pre-Jason Kaneki from Tokyo Ghoul, or Pre-Trigger Joe, and yes, even Taylor, they were all doormats. And while their doormatnish came in various flavors from Kaneki's 'Good people don't hurt others, so do what mama tells you and be a good person because your a good person right?' to both Joe and Taylor just being beaten down by their family and system respectively, the fundamental core of their decision making was driven by Learned Helplessness. And that is the defining factor on whether someone's reasonings and actions are determined to be that of a doormat or not.
Now take a look at the chapter again and look to see if any of Joe's decisions were fueled by the mentality of Learned Helplessness, and you'll find it wasn't. He has many, many, ways to bury Parian if he wishes, but he doesn't want to. Not because 'that's just how life works', or 'it is, what it is', or 'nobody would believe me anyways', or 'I don't have the power to make a difference', or 'nothing would change anyways' or any other trademark phrases one consistently hears from those suffering from Learned Helplessness. No, he chooses not to because it's already been handled to his satisfaction as it can be and he has bigger fish to fry, and that is as far from Learned Helpless as you can get.
If you've read this far, thank you for your time, patience and attention, and apologies if my points don't come out as clear as I hoped they would.
Now I really would like to talk about these two. Why? Because of everyone involved in the incident in this chapter, these two are the only ones who demanded escalating punishments. Seriously, go back and read it again, these two, the non-human spirit of fashion and hormonal and emotional child were the ones demanding escalating punishment and that it 'not be let slide'. Meanwhile all the adults were good with letting bygones be bygones. (good, yes. Forgotten? Oh fuck the hell no.) Now Aisha's case is rather cut and dry. She's basically been forced to relieve a rather traumatizing time in her life in which a bitter woman tried to use her as a weapon against an older, beloved male figure in her life. So while traumatizing not to the level of a trigger event, still traumatizing and pushing down on the trauma button hard. Meaning despite her intelligence and extended learning sessions, emotionally? She's still a child and will still respond as a child would. Which means her choices won't necessarily be the best choice.
Now, I'd like to leave it there with Aisha, because it really is that cut and dry, where as, I really want to talk about garmet. And this is why.
The biggest reason Garmet is pissed isn't just that Joe was accused of impropriety. It's that by doing what she did at the time and place that she did it was the equivalent of taking a look at all the themes and purpose of the fundraiser, and flipping it the big ol' bird. Meaning that while it is extra infuriating that she did accuse Joe, (and I use accuse loosely because as the masterful story and character crafter that Lord is, if you read it again real closely, Parian never outright accuses him, she, instead, 'beats around the bush' with very poignant implied impropriety rather then an outright accusation. Which is a very Sabah thing to do, that leaks out into her Cape persona that she is outright not aware of that she is doing. She only mentioned there was an encounter and that her employee, Sabah, was badly affected. This could be anything, from 'I refuse to pay your debts for you', to, 'I killed your cat like you deserve, ha!' and all things in between. Which is then followed up by her implying Joe had Bothered Aisha...which again is a very vague wording implying impropriety, but again, can be anything. After all I would certainly be bothered if someone was hanging around me going, 'Hey! Hey! Look! Listen!' all the time and wouldn't shut the hell up. So give it up once again for Lord for that wonderful characterization! I digress.), Parian could have accused anyone at that place and time and she would still be just as pissed off. Likewise if Parian had made those implications at a later date, Garmet would likely have been more forgiving. Assuming of course Parian recognizes her mistake and apologized properly. Of course.
Now, I'd like to leave it there with Aisha, because it really is that cut and dry, where as, I really want to talk about garmet. And this is why.
The biggest reason Garmet is pissed isn't just that Joe was accused of impropriety. It's that by doing what she did at the time and place that she did it was the equivalent of taking a look at all the themes and purpose of the fundraiser, and flipping it the big ol' bird. Meaning that while it is extra infuriating that she did accuse Joe, (and I use accuse loosely because as the masterful story and character crafter that Lord is, if you read it again real closely, Parian never outright accuses him, she, instead, 'beats around the bush' with very poignant implied impropriety rather then an outright accusation. Which is a very Sabah thing to do, that leaks out into her Cape persona that she is outright not aware of that she is doing. She only mentioned there was an encounter and that her employee, Sabah, was badly affected. This could be anything, from 'I refuse to pay your debts for you', to, 'I killed your cat like you deserve, ha!' and all things in between. Which is then followed up by her implying Joe had Bothered Aisha...which again is a very vague wording implying impropriety, but again, can be anything. After all I would certainly be bothered if someone was hanging around me going, 'Hey! Hey! Look! Listen!' all the time and wouldn't shut the hell up. So give it up once again for Lord for that wonderful characterization! I digress.), Parian could have accused anyone at that place and time and she would still be just as pissed off. Likewise if Parian had made those implications at a later date, Garmet would likely have been more forgiving. Assuming of course Parian recognizes her mistake and apologized properly. Of course.
Lord pointed out the reason Survey is helping Parian is out of pity and to ensure she doesn't cause any more trouble. But is that all it is? Truly?
Because that right there seems to say that Survey has undergone even more character growth and has in fact, matured and grown enough to do something uniquely human.
Projecting.
Projecting herself.
Projecting herself onto Parian.
That is to say, to look upon Parian and her circumstance and see herself and what she could have been if she, like Parian, did not have the help and support of Joe and Fleet to ensure she remained in a good headspace. Then wanting to pay the help she received forward to Parian.
So...can we not support Survey and her growth as a person this chapter brings? Can we do that? Please?
Also...for those who made comments about her helping Parian is wasting Survey's time...that was already addressed in story. Here's the relevant quote.
Because that right there seems to say that Survey has undergone even more character growth and has in fact, matured and grown enough to do something uniquely human.
Projecting.
Projecting herself.
Projecting herself onto Parian.
That is to say, to look upon Parian and her circumstance and see herself and what she could have been if she, like Parian, did not have the help and support of Joe and Fleet to ensure she remained in a good headspace. Then wanting to pay the help she received forward to Parian.
So...can we not support Survey and her growth as a person this chapter brings? Can we do that? Please?
Also...for those who made comments about her helping Parian is wasting Survey's time...that was already addressed in story. Here's the relevant quote.
If you've made it through all the spoilers...thank you for your time and patience. And I hope I did a good enough job with my thoughts.
Truly random eldritch bullshit cannot be accurately simulated because it is not deterministic.
Which is to say, if asking the same question at the same time can give you different results for literally no reason, even a perfect simulation can be wrong.
That's why actual precognition is so useful, looking at the literal future can give you an accurate result regardless.
And, of course, the Warp is not temporally limited either: travelling through it can send you forwards and backwards in time. Add in the Daemons who actively want to cause Chaos (especially those under Tzeentch's domain), some of whom might be able to detect that they were being simulated, and they can deliberately act contrary to the simulation (or, even, go back and change things so that the starting conditions of your simulation are no longer to have been correct) so that your simulation is no longer accurate.
Between Psykers, Daemons, and Eldar Farseers, there's enough "precog-chess" going on that even actual precognition is only of limited use.
An Excited Cat (Pettrip)
