Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)

"As I have mentioned in my other responses, Sabah is basically out of the story, at least in the context of the major events"

This satisfies any complaints I may have had, as, if I'm reading this right, it means no stupid last minute reveal of her cape identity at the most inconvenient moment to throw Joe off his game to artificially create tension, or force a misstep/mistake, at the worst possible fucking moment. An "organic" idiot ball, if you will. I don't think you would do that @LordRoustabout , but it is a pet peeve of mine so I got a little cautious when I feel like the tension is set-out for it to happen later.
 
What does leaving a winter reaction mean in SV?

"I emoted at this post in winter." Same as the rest of the holiday/seasonal emotes.

I think most of us who feel this didn't go well, would be fine with just moving on from here in the story but people will want to say their part on it, their own take and ideas. And there's a lot of fans.
 
"As I have mentioned in my other responses, Sabah is basically out of the story, at least in the context of the major events"

This satisfies any complaints I may have had, as, if I'm reading this right, it means no stupid last minute reveal of her cape identity at the most inconvenient moment to throw Joe off his game to artificially create tension, or force a misstep/mistake, at the worst possible fucking moment. An "organic" idiot ball, if you will. I don't think you would do that @LordRoustabout , but it is a pet peeve of mine so I got a little cautious when I feel like the tension is set-out for it to happen later.
I figure that's at least part of why Survey didn't tell him right now. I previously posted about this, but after killing the Nine, Joe plans to go on a national tour to revert as much of the Nine's deeds as is possible for him. At no point during this process would it be good for him to be dealing with the guilt of being a major factor in someone's trigger. If a reveal is necessary, I expect Survey will make sure it happens at a time when Joe can properly resolve his feelings on the matter.

Other than that, I find it pretty ironic that Parian thought Garment was conspiring against her when Garment just wanted to work together, and Parian feels relief now that Garment has cut ties, but in reality this is the point where Garment is going to start conspiring against her.
 
Anyways.
If there's something I got from this last chapter is that Joe will definitely never completely master Spiral Energy.
Definitely not hot-blooded enough.
 
Funny to note nobody brought up how badly Parian fucked herself here despite the fact that Joe didn't try to get revenge on her for her actions.

To put it simply if Parian would have dropped the issue without saying anything she would have been known as discount Garment, maybe not a flattering description but getting a lot of business that could not get Garment's personal attention would have been great for her future.

If Parian would have dropped the issue before bringing up Aisha then her local reputation would be more or less intact and might have seen a slight upturn due to being involved in this event.

But now after everything being brought up rumors are going to be spread about how working with Parian could risk your reputation and livelihood if she decides she doesn't like you. I wouldn't be surprised if she steadily losses contacts, and possibly losing some of her pupper show gigs after the ungodly hour stuff happens.

None of this is explicitly explained by the author and possibly is incorrect but it is something that could be implied by how the actors in the meeting were reacting.
 
The month between the two Sabah chapters affects reading comprehension.

Just ignore your audience. It's clear you've made up your mind, and preaching doesn't work.
 
Kinda want to see a Omake or Side-Story where Joe got summoned by Chaldea but didn't become a Servant for Ritsuka cause of how Joe exist in reality.

Or something like Ritsuka getting a version of the Celestial Forge
 
Funny to note nobody brought up how badly Parian fucked herself here despite the fact that Joe didn't try to get revenge on her for her actions.
Literally at least half of the people on this thread saying that; I think the entire arc was disaster and I saying that too, you wot m8

Just ignore your audience.
Not the best advice given that BCF (at least started, not sure if it changed at some point) is LordR exercise in writing. You wont get better if you ignore feedback. Not all feedback is valid, sure, but you also cant just dismiss all of it.

Anyways.
If there's something I got from this last chapter is that Joe will definitely never completely master Spiral Energy.
Definitely not hot-blooded enough.
And not insane enough! If I figured it out correctly, to use Spiral to its full potential you have to be basically insane in very specific way e.g. believing with all of your heart (and, more importantly, subconscious) that limits just dont exist. Regular humans aint wired in a way that allows such belief.
 
Normally I try to focus on responding on Ao3 since the static nature of those comments is a bit easier on my schedule compared to entering an active forum conversation, bit given the responses to the last two chapters I felt it would probably be better to make a post and address some of the issues being raised to the best of my ability.

The impression that the most recent chapter has left on so many readers is something I'm going to have to address in detail and probably on several sites, given how widespread the response has been. Without trying to be confrontational, the vast majority of the statements being made are incorrect, but this isn't my first time dealing with this kind of reader response. I can recognize when arguments are being driven by an emotional response. I could point out every inaccuracy, every detail from the chapter that was missed or misinterpreted, but this isn't about those details, it's about how the chapter came across to readers, and for many readers it was clearly a frustrating experience. They came to the chapter looking for something and didn't get it.

If the experience of reading a chapter was unpleasant or unsatisfying then it doesn't really matter if it was internally consistent or the characters actions made sense. An unpleasant experience is still unpleasant, even if it is consistent with the setting. In this case, I think it's more a factor of the tone and impression of the chapter, rather than the events in themselves.

For instance, people seem to have this impression that Joe was being a doormat and letting Sabah get off Scot free. That is very much not the case, but the chapter didn't emphasize the negative aspects of Sabah's situation, which meant those details didn't stick with readers. If you consider her actual situation, it's far from a free ride.

As Joe said, they are investigating all of Parian's past actions to make sure nothing like this has happened before. The fact that the damage from Parian's actions was quickly contained in this instance doesn't mean any other potential victims were as fortunate. Joe believes this was an atypical action driven by Parian's mental state and her connection to Sabah, but the fact that it happened means that it could have happened before. Survey is going to be digging through every other function Parian was involved in searching for any sign of misdeeds and if she finds any Parian will face the full consequences for her actions.

Another mandate was that they will not allow Parian to ever do something like this again. She is on the Celestial Forge's map now and while they aren't coming down on her for this, there is no chance they will allow a repeat performance or for anyone else to be targeted, regardless of her circumstances. There is no future risk from Parian/Sabah because she is being effectively contained.

As for that containment, Tetra has a direct link to her. That is pretty much the most intrusive form of surveillance possible. Tetra will always know where she is and has direct awareness of everything she says, everything she does, her physical state, her emotional condition, the use of her powers, the state of her passenger, and even her neural activity. Effectively, she knows everything a life fiber entity would if it were directly connected to someone, only more because Tetra's additional abilities push her awareness to new levels.

She will have Survey 'helping' her with legal advice and support, but a good portion of that will be focused on making Parian aware of how serious her actions were and how bad the consequences could have been. Survey will be providing support, but it's not like Parian's actions are being rewarded with romantic attention. Steps are being taken to make sure she does not end up completely isolated and to help her understand her situation.

And those are just the consequences from the Celestial Forge. Parian will still have to deal with the fallout from what she did which will have consequences on her future in Brockton Bay. Additionally, Garment only agreed to not take direct action against Parian. She can and will go after Parian through indirect methods that will have a devastating effect. Even something as 'simple' as offering internships and work-study programs to Brockton University's Fashion Program would result in Parian losing pretty much all of her workforce.

It's safe to say that if given the choice Parian would take any other consequences over the ones that were inflicted on her. Her lack of awareness of most of those consequences no doubt makes them unsatisfying, but the presence of Tetra's connection alone would be enough to drive someone to paranoia, to say nothing of the fact that her only real point of comfort and support is a person loyal to Joe who is only 'helping' her out of a combination of pragmatism and pity.

All of these details were spelled out in the chapter, but aren't what was being focused on. The tone of the chapter isn't about how badly Sabah is going to suffer for her actions, which is probably why so many people seem to think she got off without any consequences. If I had rewritten the chapter to just focus slightly more on the vindictive nature of the arrangements or gravity of Sabah's situation the reaction would probably have swung in a very different direction.

The thing is, Joe isn't a vindictive person. He doesn't want Parian to suffer just to make her suffer. He wants justice and to make sure she can't hurt anyone else, but he's not going to relish in her pain and misery. Furthermore, the involvement of Sabah has an impact on the situation. Joe is naturally going to be more introspective and reserved with his emotions when she's involved as Joe spent a tremendous amount of time working through things with respect to what happened with her. You'd get a very different impression if this chapter was shown from Aisha's perspective rather than Joe's.

At this point, I am tired of dealing with Parian. I was tired after the last chapter when I had hoped to close out this storyline, and then had to devote a much larger portion of this chapter to the situation than I initially intended. Writing the last chapter was not a pleasant experience for me. Working from the headspace of a person who triggered after losing a close family member as they descended towards a mental breakdown was not something I enjoyed, particularly considering what I'd had to deal with in December. Somewhat understandably, I did not want to focus on those elements for the second chapter in a row.

The condition under which a work is written doesn't make a difference for the final result. If something is unsatisfying because the author was dealing with the aftermath of a bad event at the time, that doesn't make the work any less unsatisfying. Works exist beyond the context of how they were written. I clearly didn't focus on the elements people were hoping for in this chapter. There were a lot of aspects I put a lot of work into that have been completely overlooked in the context of the wider response.

As I have mentioned in my other responses, Sabah is basically out of the story, at least in the context of the major events. She will not be interacting with Garment and has no reason to encounter Joe again. Dealing with the aftermath of the event is going to take longer than it will take for Joe to take out the major threats and begin wider operation in his cape identity, which will get a lot more focus than whatever Parian would be doing. It has been a little frustrating that the chapter that was supposed to put this element of the story to rest seems to have done anything but.

Once again, emotional responses are not easily addressed with technicalities and details. Arguing with people won't change the reaction they had when they read the chapter or the impact that had on them. I hope I've been able to address some of the concerns that people have raised and give a bit of context to things. Really I just want to move past this fairly draining portion of the story and on to some of the events that people have been looking forward to seeing.

And, to avoid ending on a completely negative note, and to hopefully shift to a more entertaining topic:


Thank you for the omake

Thank you for the omake


And thank you for demonstrating why Medaka Box is taking so long to integrate into the story. To say that it is complicated would be a bit of an understatement. Figuring out how the granted powers and additional metaphysics would interact with the rest of Joe's abilities has been a significant challenge. Additionally, there are actually two versions of the Remodeling perk, with it not being clear which was intended by the initial Celestial Forge. One is from the standard Medaka Box Jump while the other is from the Medaka Box Abnormal Jump.

Medaka Box:
Remodelling [600CP] You can remodel living or inanimate things through training, surgery, drugs or other scientific methods. Through this you can improve their efficiency or bring out their true potential. It can bring out powers that are dormant within you, but not create new ones.

Medaka Box Abnormal:
REMODELLING- 300 Why be satisfied with just what you were born with when you can make improvements? Through a variety of methods of experimentation, you are able to directly improve the power and efficiency of living beings or inanimate objects by remodelling them. This can be as simple as making an animal not afraid of powerful people or as complex as turning someone into a powerful cyborg or bringing out latent Abnormal or Minus powers within your own brain, given you can use Remodelling on yourself just as easily. There's not much of a limit on how much you can improve someone but it will take more and more resources the crazier and stronger the changes you are making are.

The version from the Abnormal jump is paradoxically both cheaper and more powerful, though that is largely because of the power level of the Abnormal jump. Considering that jump offers The End for 1500 points, it's understandable why Remodelling is only a mid-ranked perk in that context.

When I do manage to integrate Medaka Box into the story I'm inclined to use the 600 point price point, but look to the Abnormal Jump's description for guidance on how the perk should function. Since I try to be more generous with 600 point perks, it would allow integration of more aspects of Medaka Box than I would be able to justify from an ability that only costs 300 points.

Honestly chapter was fantastic and I don't understand where everyone was coming from. A little sad no chance of Joe and Sabah making up now. Maybe some scene months down the line after Sabah got ALOT of therapy just apologizing to Joe.

But considering a week in story can take months IRL I highly doubt enough time will ever pass for her to get the needed therapy before Scion dies.
 
Keep reducing complex problem of character growth and importance of self worth to a "Revenge bad" and you will be TLOU 3 writer in no time

YEAH I SAID THAT. SUE ME.
I have no idea what TLOU 3 is, but that is not what is going on here. Having compassion, and understanding that the causes of anti-social behavior are not a matter of "choice", but of the circumstances that led there aren't doormat behavior. They are simply rational.
In context, this is a joke regarding TLOU 2, wherein the main character (Ellie) has her father figure (Joel) murdered by the kid of someone Joel killed (Abby), who killed Abby's father to save Ellie. Ellie, after almost being killed by Abby, then went on a spree and killed all of Abby's friends and almost Abby's entire social circle before confronting and almost killing Abby. At the last moment, Ellie decides not to kill Abby, and that revenge is bad, despite killing literally everyone else who got in her way to kill Abby.

More or less, the "revenge is bad" plotline makes no sense, especially considering everything that led up to the final confrontation, wherein Ellie killed literally everyone in front of her, some of whom were only tangentially related to Joel's death by way of being friends with Abby.

TLOU 2 was bad storytelling, but I digress. I don't feel Joe decided that "revenge is bad." he more decided that "Dropping a nuke on a bullet ant that bit me is overkill when I can have this person that is perfectly capable of containing the bullet ant contain the ant, especially since there's a group of mass murderers that need my attention. And my nukes."
 
TLOU 2 was bad storytelling, but I digress. I don't feel Joe decided that "revenge is bad." he more decided that "Dropping a nuke on a bullet ant that bit me is overkill when I can have this person that is perfectly capable of containing the bullet ant contain the ant, especially since there's a group of mass murderers that need my attention. And my nukes."
I cannot phrase my point more comprehensive than I already did multiple times so I am going to assume that people simply dont read what I write and go have aneurysm somewhere off-screen, see ya all tomorrow hopefully.
 
I cannot phrase my point more comprehensive than I already did multiple times so I am going to assume that people simply dont read what I write and go have aneurysm somewhere off-screen, see ya all tomorrow hopefully.
To be fair, I didn't see the posts while I was writing that, I got called away and didn't refresh the page when I got back. Sorry.
 
The month between the two Sabah chapters affects reading comprehension.

Just ignore your audience. It's clear you've made up your mind, and preaching doesn't work.
I promise that the best way to make a bad story is to listen too much to your audience. Half the audience here was drooling for Joe to curse her, which would be rampantly out of character for Joe and the story as whole. It's a balancing act, and can go too far one way or the other easily. And in this case? People are split on things, so which way is he supposed to jump anyways?

Secondly, while there's an argument for giving your customers what they want — even if it's bad — we aren't customers, we don't pay for this. It's his writing exercise and his story and judging by the stats on this story he seems to have a pretty good idea of what readers want.

if we were paying readers, at worst this would just need a bit of editing to clarify a few bits, highlight a few things it seems many readers missed. And even then, I think that's not even necessary because the preceding chapter makes all that clear — some of the confusion is likely just the length of time between reading Sabahs POV and Joe's (and his response).

but the bloodthirsty Joe Needs To Act He's Being a Doormat viewpoint folks are asking for something that goes directly against story themes (its about building and creating and preserving, not destroying — and revenge is destruction, whereas containment and rehabilitation is about building. Joes very good at destruction when he needs to be, but that's not who he OR his powers are about) and against Joe's personal growth — where he started as someone who took all blame and responsibility upon himself, trusted no one, who was a mass of guilt that could not focus on himself, and allowed others to manipulate him using that guilt — that's the whole thing with his family. They used guilt and responsibility to emotionally manipulate him into doing what they wanted)

why should he curse her? Do something about her? Parian is only his problem insofar as she's a potentially unstable cape, as her non-powered actions were neutralized (and even backlashed against her) and he's trusting his team to handle both any fallout and to handle it if she's done it before, and deal with it if she tries it again.

And if he knew she was Sabah, he'd do the same thing even harder because part of Joe's personal growth is realizing some things you can't fix. There's no undoing what happened between them, and trying only makes it worse.

Hell, you want to know the most impressive bit of Joe's growth? one I've seen lots of adults in real life never manage? It happened before the story started, and it kept up through the story — it was the fact that Joe didn't keep seeking Sabah out to apologize, didn't try to 'make things right'. He accepted both his *actual* responsibility that whole issue, that it wasn't fixable, and that however guilty he felt (both correctly and incorrectly), trying to make it right would only be soothing his guilt at the expense of more damage to her.

he didn't go seeking forgiveness. He didn't try to 'prove' he'd atoned to soothe his ego. He stayed away.

I have seen more 20-something's be unable to do that than I can count. who hurt someone and compounded that by relentlessly hounding the person they hurt looking for forgiveness. Solely so they'd feel better about themselves_

and with all the power of the Forge, with all the inhuman powers at his command, he was still able to do so.

For a guy who worried what this was all doing to his humanity, he has shown the work he put into being a better person — a better human — both before and after gaining his powers.

Parian had been dealt with, the metaphorical bomb defused and actions taken to make sure no other bombs were made or will be made. Sabah remains in the past, with a pointed reminder that again — some things can't be fixed, and trying is just making yourself feel better at someone else's expense.

and in the end, for all his power — Joe wishes to be neither tyrant nor avenger, or even a hero.

he wants to be a builder, a healer, a defender. to build, heal, and protect that which needs it. To destroy only that which cannot be fixed and is a danger to remain, and to use only the minimum force required.

honestly, while I felt the Sabah thing was too drawn out (and that was mostly because she was involved in the gala which itself was a long segment), I really think the underlying theme of Sabah is important — that the master builder, fixer, and creator cannot fix everything. Some things can't be fixed. Some pains always linger, some mistakes will never fully go away.

so what do you do with them? You accept them and move on. or if someone else can fix it, you leave it to them.

can you imagine the damage Joe could do relentlessly trying to 'make things right' with Sabah, instead of staying away? What he could do if he let his powers off the leash for vengeance, out of hurt ego or feelings? Or how easily insular and 'I'm always right' he could get?

if you wanted to start Joe's villain arc, you'd start with him cursing Parian or trying to 'fix' his mistakes with Sabah. The road to hell would start there.
 
I am returned from off screen with aneurysm still in process to write final piece for today.

I am fucking sick and tired of people yelling how Joe cursing Sabah is wrong when basically nobody discuss that angle at all. If there were such discussions, its was couple comments of kneejerk reaction right after chapter; I personally saw only ONE such post and even then Curse proposed in this post would make so if Parian makes false accusation people just flat out dont believe it no matter what. But of course people have to keep "Other guys want Joe to be an asshole" narrative going because otherwise they have NOTHING to work with and their entire argument would crumble into fucking dust.

And if you ask me then what we want GO READ LIKE FOUR OTHER POSTS I ALREADY WROTE. AND GOOD TWO DOZENS OTHER PEOPLE DID. I AM DONE REWRITING THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN EACH TIME.
 
So I just read the chapter, and it highlights a specific problem I've had for a while. Why is Joe so fixated on the Unwritten Rules? I get that he's passive, but it isn't realistic at all. I genuinely don't know a single person that would religiously abide by the unwritten rules if they were in Joe's position, whether in real life or in Worm. It's ridiculous, and I don't buy the explanation given in the story.
 
...I thought it was fine?

I am surprised that people are surprised. Even discounting doormat tendencies, Joe is a deeply empathetic person. He knows how absolutely rock bottom a Trigger Event is - why would he delight in pushing someone to that point? Why would he even consider the thought of keeping her that miserable? Why would he wait for someone to recover from that low and then slap them back down again?

Best take of the comments I got through reading, I think. Sabah's been dealt with as much as she needs to be dealt with, both from Joe's standpoint and the story's standpoint. I do hope Joe one day figures out Parian's real identity, but only in a coincidental, happens-across-it-elsewhere kind of way.

Dealing with the aftermath of the event is going to take longer than it will take for Joe to take out the major threats and begin wider operation in his cape identity,

Excitement!
 
So I just read the chapter, and it highlights a specific problem I've had for a while. Why is Joe so fixated on the Unwritten Rules? I get that he's passive, but it isn't realistic at all. I genuinely don't know a single person that would religiously abide by the unwritten rules if they were in Joe's position, whether in real life or in Worm. It's ridiculous, and I don't buy the explanation given in the story.
Because it makes him "predictable" to other actors. They believe that so long as they abide by these rules, Apeiron won't move against them. Thus they believe themselves to be safe and won't do anything stupid that'll harm countless innocent people in an attempt to gain leverage against him to try and regain control of the situation.

In turn, this gives Joe time to prepare for when he stops holding back, so that he'll just be able to mop all those factions up at once without them being able to do shit.
 
.... So long as Sabah's not coming back, I'm willing (outright eager really) to just let this drop, and think of Sabah as an unfortunately bleh spot that appears in 2 out of 100+ chapters. Bit of a fumble in the overall mega-novel, but that's gonna happen. Glad she's been put deep, deep in the background where she belongs. My main problem with the chapter was that it was making every visible indication of inviting Sabah back, possibly even setting up a 'Let's fix Sabah' arc. Glad I either misread, or it was mis-conveyed, and that's not happening.
 
Kinda want to see a Omake or Side-Story where Joe got summoned by Chaldea but didn't become a Servant for Ritsuka cause of how Joe exist in reality.
Funnily enough, Fate related Side-Story was an idea Lord had some time ago. Here, we had a little discussion about it back when WoG came out.

Also, there is omake somewhere about Apeiron getting summoned by Gudako. He then was thrown into rubbish for committing the sin of not being a waifu. It's a very short omake.
 
So I just read the chapter, and it highlights a specific problem I've had for a while. Why is Joe so fixated on the Unwritten Rules? I get that he's passive, but it isn't realistic at all. I genuinely don't know a single person that would religiously abide by the unwritten rules if they were in Joe's position, whether in real life or in Worm. It's ridiculous, and I don't buy the explanation given in the story.
Because it makes him "predictable" to other actors. They believe that so long as they abide by these rules, Apeiron won't move against them. Thus they believe themselves to be safe and won't do anything stupid that'll harm countless innocent people in an attempt to gain leverage against him to try and regain control of the situation.

In turn, this gives Joe time to prepare for when he stops holding back, so that he'll just be able to mop all those factions up at once without them being able to do shit.
Also, the fact is that Joe does believe that there is some good that comes out of the unwritten rules (when people actually play by them, that is. And with someone like Apeiron saying, "This shit ain't unwritten anymore," people are more willing to do so). Most capes in Worm don't act like the Joker in that they don't go off and kill a couple of million people for a laugh; they're more like mafia bosses or petty criminals. Without the unwritten rules at least somewhat keeping the cape community in check, capes would be under no obligation to keep collateral in check, especially if heroes could waltz up to their doors and beat them into submission.

Effectively, it's a balancing act. Villians don't look for Civilian personas for heroes to off them, and heroes don't do the same. Rare cases like Coil and the S9 either keep that knowledge on the down low or are generally reviled by the entire world.

As far as Joe is concerned, he'd be happy putting people away in their cape personas, and he can do it outright. In exchange for not dogpiling everyone else when he learns who they are under the mask, he just wants his own civilian life to be respected. If some villain went after Joe as Joe (like Joe's family, his relationships outside of the CF, etc.) I get the feeling Joe wouldn't really give much of a shit about the Unwritten Rules anymore.
.... So long as Sabah's not coming back, I'm willing (outright eager really) to just let this drop, and think of Sabah as an unfortunately bleh spot that appears in 2 out of 100+ chapters. Bit of a fumble in the overall mega-novel, but that's gonna happen. Glad she's been put deep, deep in the background where she belongs. My main problem with the chapter was that it was making every visible indication of inviting Sabah back, possibly even setting up a 'Let's fix Sabah' arc. Glad I either misread, or it was mis-conveyed, and that's not happening.
Yeah, Lord's tired of writing Sabah. The drama of it all is probably getting to him, and I, as well, am glad no more focus is being given to Sabah. She's gone, and in the scope of the Story's timeframe, she's not going to be coming back. Maybe there are going to be some slight references to her by Survey or someone, but I doubt she's ever going to be in the limelight ever again.
 
Because it makes him "predictable" to other actors. They believe that so long as they abide by these rules, Apeiron won't move against them. Thus they believe themselves to be safe and won't do anything stupid that'll harm countless innocent people in an attempt to gain leverage against him to try and regain control of the situation.

In turn, this gives Joe time to prepare for when he stops holding back, so that he'll just be able to mop all those factions up at once without them being able to do shit.
But he doesn't have to tell anybody that he broke the unwritten rules though. Just the information alone could be valuable.
 
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