Is that, in fact, good advice for a writer of serial fiction?
I've got some doubts.
Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)
- Thread starter LordRoustabout
- Start date
I've got some doubts.
Hestia&theCourt
Turns out we're plural too.
- Location
- In transition
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I mean, honestly I don't think he does need to do that. This is his project, not ours. He shares it with us, for free and on a shockingly regular basis. He could easily have just kept this project to himself and let nobody read it but himself. So we're the ones getting the better end of the deal here, because he gets the benefits of having written this either way but we're only getting this because he was willing to let it be seen. That doesn't really translate to "he is obligated to us as his audience" in any way. Us being allowed to see and comment on anyone's fanfiction is a privilege, not a deal of some kind where he posts story and we tell him how to improve it: he owes us nothing.
So no, he doesn't need to do anything at all about his audience. He will write what he will write, and anyone who doesn't like it knows where the door is.
Ok I could obviously have phrased things better, the author doesn't "owe" any of us anything. That is not what I was attempting to say. We are getting the benefit of his work, not argue if that either. On the other hand any author that posts on a forum is posting to get views, beta readers, and feedback. It is completely up to that author what advice they take and what they incorporate I to their writing. I will say that authors that are given that same advice but many, many people for long periods of time probably have something they need to change and/or learn. I like the world building that Lord can do, the man is a master at world crafting, if I didn't like his writing I would have left long ago. But as someone that reads his work I try and leave the thoughts his writing leave me with and I was specifically commenting about other peoples reaction.
@Hestia&theCourt I do have a question, I thought posting in color was only a mod thing. Is that not true?
@Hestia&theCourt I do have a question, I thought posting in color was only a mod thing. Is that not true?
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Hestia&theCourt
Turns out we're plural too.
- Location
- In transition
- Pronouns
- She/Her
We double-checked with a mod to make sure, we're allowed. You might be thinking of SpaceBattles, where that actually does seem to be the policy.
- Location
- Here
I want to poke at these because they get to the heart of the issue: there are definitely some people here being gung-ho about wanting to destroy her forever, in large part because rather than seeing any of this fabled professional fallout or reputational damage manifest, we get her crush and Tetra deciding to hang out with her more. It reads as the end result of her making a deeply fucked up comment being a reward by the target of said comment and his associates, only 2 of whom seem to recognize how messed up this really was, one of whom is literally incapable of telling him with words and the other of whom is a 13 year old.
But at no point is this lack of processing treated as a flaw, instead we watch as Joe patiently explains to Aisha why Parian accusing him of predating her isn't a big deal, even as she tries to convey how big a deal it is...and this is treated as a successful or even praise-worthy act by him instead of a sign of his deeply fucked up lack of self-worth coming to the fore again.
Joe never once seems to care that what she did was wrong, and that hurting him was wrong, and that he deserves better. Some people are aggrieved because the bad guy didn't get punished, but it seems to me that more are aggrieved that Joe once again retreated to a place of not valuing himself, without pushback, despite the thousands and thousands of words dedicated to trying to convey that he needs help on the subject. I don't mind that he once more ran from accepting that he has value—it's extremely in-character, and backsliding is inevitable, considering this and his absurd hesitance are the closest things he has to flaws—I mind that his coterie (and even the metaplot) don't seem to recognize that he backslid.
ExploerTM
Ruin has found you at last!
- Location
- Russia, Perm
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Ok, so, give me an example. There's a guy who attempts to walk over me, in you opinion, what are my options?
But that's the thing - he doesnt chose to disengage. As I edited earlier, it would've been better if Joe explicitily stated that yes, he lets it slide. Because this Joe would be aknowledging that there is a problem AND deliberately choosing not to engage with it. Yet he claims he wont let is slide... and does just that. His words and thoughts do not correspond with his actions.
Intent IS important.
Not what people talking about so do not try to deflect. Nobody is arguing that Survey cant handle it, literally NOBODY, if anything people claiming its too much resources waste allowing Survey handle it (its not, she is an AI people, she may not be Fleet but she can handle multiple bodies just fine).
- Location
- Malaysia
- Pronouns
- He
I know part of the appeal of this story is Joe's personal growth, but it is kind of getting tedious. My favourite chapters are the ones with fights and the interludes from other characters who have to deal with the effects of Apeiron's actions.
Action chapters appeal to everyone, while reading the interludes really shows just how much Apeiron and the Celestial Forge are changing the world just by existing, forcing everyone to adapt.
Action chapters appeal to everyone, while reading the interludes really shows just how much Apeiron and the Celestial Forge are changing the world just by existing, forcing everyone to adapt.
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Normally I try to focus on responding on Ao3 since the static nature of those comments is a bit easier on my schedule compared to entering an active forum conversation, bit given the responses to the last two chapters I felt it would probably be better to make a post and address some of the issues being raised to the best of my ability.
The impression that the most recent chapter has left on so many readers is something I'm going to have to address in detail and probably on several sites, given how widespread the response has been. Without trying to be confrontational, the vast majority of the statements being made are incorrect, but this isn't my first time dealing with this kind of reader response. I can recognize when arguments are being driven by an emotional response. I could point out every inaccuracy, every detail from the chapter that was missed or misinterpreted, but this isn't about those details, it's about how the chapter came across to readers, and for many readers it was clearly a frustrating experience. They came to the chapter looking for something and didn't get it.
If the experience of reading a chapter was unpleasant or unsatisfying then it doesn't really matter if it was internally consistent or the characters actions made sense. An unpleasant experience is still unpleasant, even if it is consistent with the setting. In this case, I think it's more a factor of the tone and impression of the chapter, rather than the events in themselves.
For instance, people seem to have this impression that Joe was being a doormat and letting Sabah get off Scot free. That is very much not the case, but the chapter didn't emphasize the negative aspects of Sabah's situation, which meant those details didn't stick with readers. If you consider her actual situation, it's far from a free ride.
As Joe said, they are investigating all of Parian's past actions to make sure nothing like this has happened before. The fact that the damage from Parian's actions was quickly contained in this instance doesn't mean any other potential victims were as fortunate. Joe believes this was an atypical action driven by Parian's mental state and her connection to Sabah, but the fact that it happened means that it could have happened before. Survey is going to be digging through every other function Parian was involved in searching for any sign of misdeeds and if she finds any Parian will face the full consequences for her actions.
Another mandate was that they will not allow Parian to ever do something like this again. She is on the Celestial Forge's map now and while they aren't coming down on her for this, there is no chance they will allow a repeat performance or for anyone else to be targeted, regardless of her circumstances. There is no future risk from Parian/Sabah because she is being effectively contained.
As for that containment, Tetra has a direct link to her. That is pretty much the most intrusive form of surveillance possible. Tetra will always know where she is and has direct awareness of everything she says, everything she does, her physical state, her emotional condition, the use of her powers, the state of her passenger, and even her neural activity. Effectively, she knows everything a life fiber entity would if it were directly connected to someone, only more because Tetra's additional abilities push her awareness to new levels.
She will have Survey 'helping' her with legal advice and support, but a good portion of that will be focused on making Parian aware of how serious her actions were and how bad the consequences could have been. Survey will be providing support, but it's not like Parian's actions are being rewarded with romantic attention. Steps are being taken to make sure she does not end up completely isolated and to help her understand her situation.
And those are just the consequences from the Celestial Forge. Parian will still have to deal with the fallout from what she did which will have consequences on her future in Brockton Bay. Additionally, Garment only agreed to not take direct action against Parian. She can and will go after Parian through indirect methods that will have a devastating effect. Even something as 'simple' as offering internships and work-study programs to Brockton University's Fashion Program would result in Parian losing pretty much all of her workforce.
It's safe to say that if given the choice Parian would take any other consequences over the ones that were inflicted on her. Her lack of awareness of most of those consequences no doubt makes them unsatisfying, but the presence of Tetra's connection alone would be enough to drive someone to paranoia, to say nothing of the fact that her only real point of comfort and support is a person loyal to Joe who is only 'helping' her out of a combination of pragmatism and pity.
All of these details were spelled out in the chapter, but aren't what was being focused on. The tone of the chapter isn't about how badly Sabah is going to suffer for her actions, which is probably why so many people seem to think she got off without any consequences. If I had rewritten the chapter to just focus slightly more on the vindictive nature of the arrangements or gravity of Sabah's situation the reaction would probably have swung in a very different direction.
The thing is, Joe isn't a vindictive person. He doesn't want Parian to suffer just to make her suffer. He wants justice and to make sure she can't hurt anyone else, but he's not going to relish in her pain and misery. Furthermore, the involvement of Sabah has an impact on the situation. Joe is naturally going to be more introspective and reserved with his emotions when she's involved as Joe spent a tremendous amount of time working through things with respect to what happened with her. You'd get a very different impression if this chapter was shown from Aisha's perspective rather than Joe's.
At this point, I am tired of dealing with Parian. I was tired after the last chapter when I had hoped to close out this storyline, and then had to devote a much larger portion of this chapter to the situation than I initially intended. Writing the last chapter was not a pleasant experience for me. Working from the headspace of a person who triggered after losing a close family member as they descended towards a mental breakdown was not something I enjoyed, particularly considering what I'd had to deal with in December. Somewhat understandably, I did not want to focus on those elements for the second chapter in a row.
The condition under which a work is written doesn't make a difference for the final result. If something is unsatisfying because the author was dealing with the aftermath of a bad event at the time, that doesn't make the work any less unsatisfying. Works exist beyond the context of how they were written. I clearly didn't focus on the elements people were hoping for in this chapter. There were a lot of aspects I put a lot of work into that have been completely overlooked in the context of the wider response.
As I have mentioned in my other responses, Sabah is basically out of the story, at least in the context of the major events. She will not be interacting with Garment and has no reason to encounter Joe again. Dealing with the aftermath of the event is going to take longer than it will take for Joe to take out the major threats and begin wider operation in his cape identity, which will get a lot more focus than whatever Parian would be doing. It has been a little frustrating that the chapter that was supposed to put this element of the story to rest seems to have done anything but.
Once again, emotional responses are not easily addressed with technicalities and details. Arguing with people won't change the reaction they had when they read the chapter or the impact that had on them. I hope I've been able to address some of the concerns that people have raised and give a bit of context to things. Really I just want to move past this fairly draining portion of the story and on to some of the events that people have been looking forward to seeing.
And, to avoid ending on a completely negative note, and to hopefully shift to a more entertaining topic:
And thank you for demonstrating why Medaka Box is taking so long to integrate into the story. To say that it is complicated would be a bit of an understatement. Figuring out how the granted powers and additional metaphysics would interact with the rest of Joe's abilities has been a significant challenge. Additionally, there are actually two versions of the Remodeling perk, with it not being clear which was intended by the initial Celestial Forge. One is from the standard Medaka Box Jump while the other is from the Medaka Box Abnormal Jump.
Medaka Box:
Remodelling [600CP] You can remodel living or inanimate things through training, surgery, drugs or other scientific methods. Through this you can improve their efficiency or bring out their true potential. It can bring out powers that are dormant within you, but not create new ones.
Medaka Box Abnormal:
REMODELLING- 300 Why be satisfied with just what you were born with when you can make improvements? Through a variety of methods of experimentation, you are able to directly improve the power and efficiency of living beings or inanimate objects by remodelling them. This can be as simple as making an animal not afraid of powerful people or as complex as turning someone into a powerful cyborg or bringing out latent Abnormal or Minus powers within your own brain, given you can use Remodelling on yourself just as easily. There's not much of a limit on how much you can improve someone but it will take more and more resources the crazier and stronger the changes you are making are.
The version from the Abnormal jump is paradoxically both cheaper and more powerful, though that is largely because of the power level of the Abnormal jump. Considering that jump offers The End for 1500 points, it's understandable why Remodelling is only a mid-ranked perk in that context.
When I do manage to integrate Medaka Box into the story I'm inclined to use the 600 point price point, but look to the Abnormal Jump's description for guidance on how the perk should function. Since I try to be more generous with 600 point perks, it would allow integration of more aspects of Medaka Box than I would be able to justify from an ability that only costs 300 points.
The impression that the most recent chapter has left on so many readers is something I'm going to have to address in detail and probably on several sites, given how widespread the response has been. Without trying to be confrontational, the vast majority of the statements being made are incorrect, but this isn't my first time dealing with this kind of reader response. I can recognize when arguments are being driven by an emotional response. I could point out every inaccuracy, every detail from the chapter that was missed or misinterpreted, but this isn't about those details, it's about how the chapter came across to readers, and for many readers it was clearly a frustrating experience. They came to the chapter looking for something and didn't get it.
If the experience of reading a chapter was unpleasant or unsatisfying then it doesn't really matter if it was internally consistent or the characters actions made sense. An unpleasant experience is still unpleasant, even if it is consistent with the setting. In this case, I think it's more a factor of the tone and impression of the chapter, rather than the events in themselves.
For instance, people seem to have this impression that Joe was being a doormat and letting Sabah get off Scot free. That is very much not the case, but the chapter didn't emphasize the negative aspects of Sabah's situation, which meant those details didn't stick with readers. If you consider her actual situation, it's far from a free ride.
As Joe said, they are investigating all of Parian's past actions to make sure nothing like this has happened before. The fact that the damage from Parian's actions was quickly contained in this instance doesn't mean any other potential victims were as fortunate. Joe believes this was an atypical action driven by Parian's mental state and her connection to Sabah, but the fact that it happened means that it could have happened before. Survey is going to be digging through every other function Parian was involved in searching for any sign of misdeeds and if she finds any Parian will face the full consequences for her actions.
Another mandate was that they will not allow Parian to ever do something like this again. She is on the Celestial Forge's map now and while they aren't coming down on her for this, there is no chance they will allow a repeat performance or for anyone else to be targeted, regardless of her circumstances. There is no future risk from Parian/Sabah because she is being effectively contained.
As for that containment, Tetra has a direct link to her. That is pretty much the most intrusive form of surveillance possible. Tetra will always know where she is and has direct awareness of everything she says, everything she does, her physical state, her emotional condition, the use of her powers, the state of her passenger, and even her neural activity. Effectively, she knows everything a life fiber entity would if it were directly connected to someone, only more because Tetra's additional abilities push her awareness to new levels.
She will have Survey 'helping' her with legal advice and support, but a good portion of that will be focused on making Parian aware of how serious her actions were and how bad the consequences could have been. Survey will be providing support, but it's not like Parian's actions are being rewarded with romantic attention. Steps are being taken to make sure she does not end up completely isolated and to help her understand her situation.
And those are just the consequences from the Celestial Forge. Parian will still have to deal with the fallout from what she did which will have consequences on her future in Brockton Bay. Additionally, Garment only agreed to not take direct action against Parian. She can and will go after Parian through indirect methods that will have a devastating effect. Even something as 'simple' as offering internships and work-study programs to Brockton University's Fashion Program would result in Parian losing pretty much all of her workforce.
It's safe to say that if given the choice Parian would take any other consequences over the ones that were inflicted on her. Her lack of awareness of most of those consequences no doubt makes them unsatisfying, but the presence of Tetra's connection alone would be enough to drive someone to paranoia, to say nothing of the fact that her only real point of comfort and support is a person loyal to Joe who is only 'helping' her out of a combination of pragmatism and pity.
All of these details were spelled out in the chapter, but aren't what was being focused on. The tone of the chapter isn't about how badly Sabah is going to suffer for her actions, which is probably why so many people seem to think she got off without any consequences. If I had rewritten the chapter to just focus slightly more on the vindictive nature of the arrangements or gravity of Sabah's situation the reaction would probably have swung in a very different direction.
The thing is, Joe isn't a vindictive person. He doesn't want Parian to suffer just to make her suffer. He wants justice and to make sure she can't hurt anyone else, but he's not going to relish in her pain and misery. Furthermore, the involvement of Sabah has an impact on the situation. Joe is naturally going to be more introspective and reserved with his emotions when she's involved as Joe spent a tremendous amount of time working through things with respect to what happened with her. You'd get a very different impression if this chapter was shown from Aisha's perspective rather than Joe's.
At this point, I am tired of dealing with Parian. I was tired after the last chapter when I had hoped to close out this storyline, and then had to devote a much larger portion of this chapter to the situation than I initially intended. Writing the last chapter was not a pleasant experience for me. Working from the headspace of a person who triggered after losing a close family member as they descended towards a mental breakdown was not something I enjoyed, particularly considering what I'd had to deal with in December. Somewhat understandably, I did not want to focus on those elements for the second chapter in a row.
The condition under which a work is written doesn't make a difference for the final result. If something is unsatisfying because the author was dealing with the aftermath of a bad event at the time, that doesn't make the work any less unsatisfying. Works exist beyond the context of how they were written. I clearly didn't focus on the elements people were hoping for in this chapter. There were a lot of aspects I put a lot of work into that have been completely overlooked in the context of the wider response.
As I have mentioned in my other responses, Sabah is basically out of the story, at least in the context of the major events. She will not be interacting with Garment and has no reason to encounter Joe again. Dealing with the aftermath of the event is going to take longer than it will take for Joe to take out the major threats and begin wider operation in his cape identity, which will get a lot more focus than whatever Parian would be doing. It has been a little frustrating that the chapter that was supposed to put this element of the story to rest seems to have done anything but.
Once again, emotional responses are not easily addressed with technicalities and details. Arguing with people won't change the reaction they had when they read the chapter or the impact that had on them. I hope I've been able to address some of the concerns that people have raised and give a bit of context to things. Really I just want to move past this fairly draining portion of the story and on to some of the events that people have been looking forward to seeing.
And, to avoid ending on a completely negative note, and to hopefully shift to a more entertaining topic:
Thank you for the omake
Thank you for the omake
And thank you for demonstrating why Medaka Box is taking so long to integrate into the story. To say that it is complicated would be a bit of an understatement. Figuring out how the granted powers and additional metaphysics would interact with the rest of Joe's abilities has been a significant challenge. Additionally, there are actually two versions of the Remodeling perk, with it not being clear which was intended by the initial Celestial Forge. One is from the standard Medaka Box Jump while the other is from the Medaka Box Abnormal Jump.
Medaka Box:
Remodelling [600CP] You can remodel living or inanimate things through training, surgery, drugs or other scientific methods. Through this you can improve their efficiency or bring out their true potential. It can bring out powers that are dormant within you, but not create new ones.
Medaka Box Abnormal:
REMODELLING- 300 Why be satisfied with just what you were born with when you can make improvements? Through a variety of methods of experimentation, you are able to directly improve the power and efficiency of living beings or inanimate objects by remodelling them. This can be as simple as making an animal not afraid of powerful people or as complex as turning someone into a powerful cyborg or bringing out latent Abnormal or Minus powers within your own brain, given you can use Remodelling on yourself just as easily. There's not much of a limit on how much you can improve someone but it will take more and more resources the crazier and stronger the changes you are making are.
The version from the Abnormal jump is paradoxically both cheaper and more powerful, though that is largely because of the power level of the Abnormal jump. Considering that jump offers The End for 1500 points, it's understandable why Remodelling is only a mid-ranked perk in that context.
When I do manage to integrate Medaka Box into the story I'm inclined to use the 600 point price point, but look to the Abnormal Jump's description for guidance on how the perk should function. Since I try to be more generous with 600 point perks, it would allow integration of more aspects of Medaka Box than I would be able to justify from an ability that only costs 300 points.
lancelot
Completely worth it
Yeah I didn't comment because I thought all of this was obvious. I'm honestly surprised that there wasn't a bunch of people white knighting for the woobie girl, but I guess your MC is so popular that it completely countered that. You did a great job on this and if people didn't understand that MC basically has a leash up her ass and you've set her up to be shattered completely if it's ever revealed that most of her 'social links' are a lie.
The only thing I fond annoying is that despite his intelligence being near god like, and being a master spy now he still couldn't put together 2+2 on Parian's ID.
- Location
- Earth
Huh. My major criticism of the chapter is that it was a little bit of something and a whole lot of nothing-- pacing/narrative/scene wise-- even within the larger context of the glacial progression of the fic as a whole.
Didn't think people would get so worked up over someone who can do little to hurt the MC thanks to his vast power and supernatural support network.
Didn't think people would get so worked up over someone who can do little to hurt the MC thanks to his vast power and supernatural support network.
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TheScrub
God's in his heaven. All's right with the world
...We literally had a chapter from Sabah prospective were she was going cu-cu from the shear stress. Then the chapter after that Survey and Joe spent a sizable amount of time explaining that the girl was basically a spit and a half away from Triggering (only not really).
So how the fuck that wasn't emphasizes enough? Some people man.
- Location
- Texas
God tier intuition vs God tier compartmentalization
I think the issue is less it wasn't emphasized at all or even that it couldn't even be implied and more the note both chapters ended on(because they happened in the same timeframe).
More worried about limiting the possibility of a second trigger than anything else.
- Location
- Gladstone, OR
Forgive me for being late to the party on this. I'll say my piece and let it go. I also posted a rougher version on the BCF discord.
My opinion, such that it matters, is that... we the readers were not given a traditional/conventionally satisfying payoff of the buildup. (This is not a request to change the chapter or for Roust to spend any more time, I am making an observation on the reaction of the readers, not the quality or execution of the scene itself.)
I think what Roust did was fine. Good even! And satisfaction is as much an interrelated point of anticipation.... To clarify- I think Roust maintained artistic integrity in what was done, even if splitting the chapter complicated things. I'd rather see the integrity retained than not.
The release of tension was slow and drawn out, and there was very little put in its place to anticipate. We didn't get a 'Next thing' to look forward to, like deployment of psychic therapy tools to speed recovery. (Not to say we needed that, but its an example.) Roust wanted 'Parian, exit stage left', and I was thinking initially more 'Parian, useful touchstone of ongoing cape behaviors';
Though having said that, recent WoG and the like points out that Sabah went out of her way to isolate herself into specific spaces as to avoid larger cape dynamics, so her narrative utility in that regard is tiny.
The other factor is that bluntly, the readership projects upon the protagonist, and they especially project upon the kind of protagonist Joe is- a meta-fictional one. The point of JC/CF fiction is the vicarious expression of [setting] and it function as an out-of-context problem.
To put it another way- Joe chose to do nothing, and by choosing to do nothing, alienated the primary appeal point of JC/CF fiction.
Now I caveat this- 'nothing' is a range of options, especially for Joe. He obviously chose not to do anything malicious or vindictive, because he's not either of those things unless sorely pressed. I think what really got people thrown off, was that Joe could not even act heroically in context of Sabah/Parian.
Joe could not, wtih the vast powers of the Forge or even just his own personal growth over the past years and recent weeks cannot do anything about Sabah. He can't do anything for her, beyond what he already offered as Jozef Duris during his apology. He can't help her as Joe, he can't help her directly as shining heroic Aperion or dread Engigmatic Articifer.
Simply- he can't help her, even if he wanted to, as any kind of help from him directly is in fact going to make things worse. And the wider kind of readership of CF fiction abhor the idea of not doing Something.
Because what is actually reasonable and coherent for the existing narrative, is discretion and utmost care. Roust is writing a story about someone with terrifying power, not an indulgent wish-fulfilment romp. He is restricted to operating through intermediaries, and that curtails the kind of satisfaction we might appreciate as the audience.
We're being told in the narrative sense (and I mean that kindly) that the matter is resolved, that Survey and Tetra are going to be supportive and constructive influences on Sabah going forward, but for the sake of BCF-the-project, wordcount dedicated to Sabah is going to be willfully restricted.
The reality is that BCF is an elaborate, character-driven worldbuilding experiment. Bold, flashy and dynamic beats of wish-fulfilment empowerment are infrequent and often complicated by pragmatic or realpolitik forces that stay Joe's hand.
My opinion, such that it matters, is that... we the readers were not given a traditional/conventionally satisfying payoff of the buildup. (This is not a request to change the chapter or for Roust to spend any more time, I am making an observation on the reaction of the readers, not the quality or execution of the scene itself.)
I think what Roust did was fine. Good even! And satisfaction is as much an interrelated point of anticipation.... To clarify- I think Roust maintained artistic integrity in what was done, even if splitting the chapter complicated things. I'd rather see the integrity retained than not.
The release of tension was slow and drawn out, and there was very little put in its place to anticipate. We didn't get a 'Next thing' to look forward to, like deployment of psychic therapy tools to speed recovery. (Not to say we needed that, but its an example.) Roust wanted 'Parian, exit stage left', and I was thinking initially more 'Parian, useful touchstone of ongoing cape behaviors';
Though having said that, recent WoG and the like points out that Sabah went out of her way to isolate herself into specific spaces as to avoid larger cape dynamics, so her narrative utility in that regard is tiny.
The other factor is that bluntly, the readership projects upon the protagonist, and they especially project upon the kind of protagonist Joe is- a meta-fictional one. The point of JC/CF fiction is the vicarious expression of [setting] and it function as an out-of-context problem.
To put it another way- Joe chose to do nothing, and by choosing to do nothing, alienated the primary appeal point of JC/CF fiction.
Now I caveat this- 'nothing' is a range of options, especially for Joe. He obviously chose not to do anything malicious or vindictive, because he's not either of those things unless sorely pressed. I think what really got people thrown off, was that Joe could not even act heroically in context of Sabah/Parian.
Joe could not, wtih the vast powers of the Forge or even just his own personal growth over the past years and recent weeks cannot do anything about Sabah. He can't do anything for her, beyond what he already offered as Jozef Duris during his apology. He can't help her as Joe, he can't help her directly as shining heroic Aperion or dread Engigmatic Articifer.
Simply- he can't help her, even if he wanted to, as any kind of help from him directly is in fact going to make things worse. And the wider kind of readership of CF fiction abhor the idea of not doing Something.
Because what is actually reasonable and coherent for the existing narrative, is discretion and utmost care. Roust is writing a story about someone with terrifying power, not an indulgent wish-fulfilment romp. He is restricted to operating through intermediaries, and that curtails the kind of satisfaction we might appreciate as the audience.
We're being told in the narrative sense (and I mean that kindly) that the matter is resolved, that Survey and Tetra are going to be supportive and constructive influences on Sabah going forward, but for the sake of BCF-the-project, wordcount dedicated to Sabah is going to be willfully restricted.
The reality is that BCF is an elaborate, character-driven worldbuilding experiment. Bold, flashy and dynamic beats of wish-fulfilment empowerment are infrequent and often complicated by pragmatic or realpolitik forces that stay Joe's hand.
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MagicalAmbitions
the rose in your vase
- Pronouns
- She/Her
oh my god a direct response from LordRoustabout to my Medaka Box speculation i'm gonna explode
on a more serious note, as a huge fan of Medaka Box it makes me very happy to see that you're taking the time to figure out how to handle it properly and show care for the source material before integrating it into the fic. i know that that's standard for this fic but this one is very important and special to me, so thanks.
Lopezelpesado
Space worm best worm.
- Pronouns
- Something
The only thing that annoyed me from the chapter is NOONE telling Joe Sabah is Parian.
Otherwise everything else was good really.
Otherwise everything else was good really.
if I'm being honest could care less for the drama rather just move on from it already. The Parian thing was given too much focus and in the grand scheme of thing she doesn't matter, don't care how Joe and Co. handle situation as long it over and done with, so we can actually focus on stuff that matters.
ExploerTM
Ruin has found you at last!
- Location
- Russia, Perm
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
I cannot speak as a writer, god knows I am not one. But I do believe that readers can have as much of an input as actual writers if only because they are the ones ultimately judging the book.
As my profile states, I joined this site on 21st of December, 2021, 3 years ago. I joined SV with an explicit purpose of engaging with this fic because its peaked my interest beyond any other. And in 3 years that I've been following BCF I dont think I ever criticized it in any meaningful capacity if at all. Well, first time for everything I guess.
In my opinion, the problem with this chapter in particular and arc in general is twofold.
1. Joe doesnt come across as someone who calm, collected and kind. By all means, he let situation play as it will, going with the flow. Meta knowledge is something that makes any consequences from CF side to Parian meaningless because we know that Parian never done something like this before and probably would never do again so consequences of Survey's Lance might as well not exist. Arguably, its net positive for Parian because, as Undersiders learned, even being indebted to CF gives you protection no money in the world could buy. Joe hardly even acknowledged how bad this could've been and seemingly said "I am not letting it slide" to Aisha only to calm her down. The entire exchange sounded like a textbook Doormat behavior where Joe thinks that being angry at offending party would be wrong because offending party goes through stressful situation themselves. Joe said he wouldn't let it be and then immediately makes an excuse why he will let it be. It would've been much better if we were shown that Joe was offended at this situation however minor his annoyance would be but he CHOSE to be a bigger man and let it go. This would've been a powerful statement to Joe's character and what would've truly make him come across as not a vengeful person. Him saying that Parian got a lot on her plate in this scenario wouldn't have sounded like an excuse but like a justification. Two entirely different things no matter what some people might think.
2. Parian arc ultimately feels like it's unfinished, unsatisfying and unnecessary. If Parian is effectively gone from fic from this point on, we wont really see any consequences for her hence it feels both unfinished and unsatisfying. Like an epilogue chapter was torn away from the book. As for unnecessary... Well, Parian herself didnt grow as a character nor got to face consequences of her actions (at least not that we would see it). She didnt understood that actions have consequences and still thinks that it was just world ganging up on her as per usual. However close she was to Second Trigger, she still the same Parian that we saw at the start of this arc. Her character has no resolution, satisfying or otherwise. She just is. Same could be said for Joe as per part 1 of my message, his encounter with Sabah didnt brought anything new to the table and didnt mark any important milestone in his recovery. It wasnt on the same level as, say, him having an epiphany at Dr. Campbell's session when he decided to make CF a thing. His talk with Sabah was ultimately just to neatly tie lose end that wasnt overly bothering anyone to begin with; nice but mostly cosmetic stuff. The entire Parian arc could be shifted in the deep background, summarized in a couple of paragraphs and exists not for the sake of characters but for the sake of events and story wouldn't have lost anything at all. False accusations fiasco could be written out entirely with no consequences for the plot nor characters. Parian arc exists for the sake of existing.
As my profile states, I joined this site on 21st of December, 2021, 3 years ago. I joined SV with an explicit purpose of engaging with this fic because its peaked my interest beyond any other. And in 3 years that I've been following BCF I dont think I ever criticized it in any meaningful capacity if at all. Well, first time for everything I guess.
In my opinion, the problem with this chapter in particular and arc in general is twofold.
1. Joe doesnt come across as someone who calm, collected and kind. By all means, he let situation play as it will, going with the flow. Meta knowledge is something that makes any consequences from CF side to Parian meaningless because we know that Parian never done something like this before and probably would never do again so consequences of Survey's Lance might as well not exist. Arguably, its net positive for Parian because, as Undersiders learned, even being indebted to CF gives you protection no money in the world could buy. Joe hardly even acknowledged how bad this could've been and seemingly said "I am not letting it slide" to Aisha only to calm her down. The entire exchange sounded like a textbook Doormat behavior where Joe thinks that being angry at offending party would be wrong because offending party goes through stressful situation themselves. Joe said he wouldn't let it be and then immediately makes an excuse why he will let it be. It would've been much better if we were shown that Joe was offended at this situation however minor his annoyance would be but he CHOSE to be a bigger man and let it go. This would've been a powerful statement to Joe's character and what would've truly make him come across as not a vengeful person. Him saying that Parian got a lot on her plate in this scenario wouldn't have sounded like an excuse but like a justification. Two entirely different things no matter what some people might think.
2. Parian arc ultimately feels like it's unfinished, unsatisfying and unnecessary. If Parian is effectively gone from fic from this point on, we wont really see any consequences for her hence it feels both unfinished and unsatisfying. Like an epilogue chapter was torn away from the book. As for unnecessary... Well, Parian herself didnt grow as a character nor got to face consequences of her actions (at least not that we would see it). She didnt understood that actions have consequences and still thinks that it was just world ganging up on her as per usual. However close she was to Second Trigger, she still the same Parian that we saw at the start of this arc. Her character has no resolution, satisfying or otherwise. She just is. Same could be said for Joe as per part 1 of my message, his encounter with Sabah didnt brought anything new to the table and didnt mark any important milestone in his recovery. It wasnt on the same level as, say, him having an epiphany at Dr. Campbell's session when he decided to make CF a thing. His talk with Sabah was ultimately just to neatly tie lose end that wasnt overly bothering anyone to begin with; nice but mostly cosmetic stuff. The entire Parian arc could be shifted in the deep background, summarized in a couple of paragraphs and exists not for the sake of characters but for the sake of events and story wouldn't have lost anything at all. False accusations fiasco could be written out entirely with no consequences for the plot nor characters. Parian arc exists for the sake of existing.
I just felt that Joe was wanting to help Sabah and when he realizes that she and Parian are the same person he will want to do something for her. She like all the other parahumans is broken and their power keeps them focused on their trigger. Joe is getting very close to altering this, and when he does that will tone down a lot of problems. Joe is doing much better than the other parahumans and is getting better all the time, I think is has moved past much of his problems, he just needs to realize it himself.
I think it's because Joe wanted to be kept in the dark intentionally and asked everyone else to not tell him about cape identities or to dig deeper into them
Yay. hope it stays that way.
Yeah, guessed as much. still a bitter pill to swallow, but considering the girl most likely has no-one else that would help her, other than the ones she inadvertently offended, who also have a vested interest in preventing things from getting worse, being hands-off in getting the girl help would hard at best, wishful thinking at worst.
What? did I miss something? why would Tetra's connection induce paranoia?
hehe.
Yay.
Ooof. Yeah, for going through that, I just want to say, appreciate the effort dude.
hmmmm.......now I hope I don't come across as aggressive or antagonistic, and I hope I'm able to express my thoughts correctly......... but no. While sometimes it is true you cant give an excuse for shoddy work but you also can't just say that the conditions you had worked under don't matter, because they do. I don't want to go through related literature about extraneous variables, cognitive load theory, stress and whatnot, but as far as I know, poor work conditions can lead to poor results, same as improved work conditions can lead to better results. Maybe you could have done better when you were a better headspace, if you had not gone through whatever you had went through in december, but maybe you were not and you did. And writing in the headspace of someone like Parian was unpleasant, which will contribute to something whether we like or not, but you did a far better job than most I can think of, all things considered. So I don't really want to see you beat youreself up for going through something recently and that it might have affected how you did something, which you also found unpleasant. I can see the logic and get the reasons why you wrote what you wrote, even if I personally found some of it hard to swallow. But you did an amazing job, I will have to swallow, really do appreciate the work and effort you've done, and I think the least we owe you is some understanding. and it's not like she's coming back to story anytime soon right?
I really do hope I expressed my thoughts correctly.
Hope I didnt come off as too touchy/personal.
Thanks for explaining and hope things will improve on your side of life.
I mean, it was and still is obvious. I think I posted about Parian way back when they actually had their little 'confrontation' (and jeez, that was back in August), and dropped it there. It has, frankly, been clear for a very long time in this thread that Parian's mind is fucked. Way back when she was obsessing over how Garment was 'clearly' forming a conspiracy to undermine her. It should have been clear going in that she wasn't thinking straight, and could likely blow up over something. Her still being so massively hung up on Joe specifically was a surprise, but that something would happen and it would be a result of her paranoiac tendencies or budding victim complex (thought it's only budding because just too much of it was entirely real and justified, thanks to the literal nazis). This was literally foreshadowed with thousands of words months ago.
As for Joe not putting 2+2 together...I could argue that in-character, he's trying not to focus on this stuff, especially since there are genuinely more important things going on. Maybe even that he'd figure it out if he didn't start subconsciously retracting the moment he met Sabah (explaining how he missed her telekinetically controlling her clothes that whole time).
Personally though...I think the AN says it all. Lord is tired of this section and of dealing with Sabah's drama. Having Joe realize that Sabah IS Parian, and her nearly going Second Trigger absolutely has something to do with him specifically? That would be adding a mountain more reasons for Joe to focus more on this stuff then literally anything else. Parian breaking down might be less important than the gangs or the S9, but the Celestial Forge is also kinda hilarious over prepared and overpowered for all their other concerns. If a major personal tie were made clear, Joe would be all but obligated to MAKE time (that he could absolutely do) for it. And that would be a somewhat toxic turn for the story and Lord's muse. Hence, Joe is ignoring all of that and letting it be Survey and Tetra's problem while RBNK reactor core Parian is allowed to cool down and get some emergency maintenance in the the background.
This I've also got to comment on... because @LordRoustabout, you were quite clear that Parian wasn't some scheming villain escaping justice. What she did was clearly wrong even in her own chapter, but just as clear was her irrational motivations and the fact she wasn't getting away with it. Personally, most of the latest stuff I've seen since the last post? People seemingly completely dismissing the chapter before this one when they start an uproar? That much isn't on you. I would see a genuine potential issue for the ones focusing on Joe being a 'door mat' in return, because there kinda is an issue with a lot of the prior story maintaining the same...not meek but passive/defensive character for Joe even as he gets loaded with more and more perks and mind-altering affects that have a much touted impact on him (really looking at Hestia's Blessing and Spiral Energy here), only for them to not change much in practice and be swarmed over by other powers competing for attention going forward.
That is criticism I would find valid...if it weren't just so wrong. The whole chapter was about the CF running damage control and proactively addressing the situation. Point-blank, the team did the opposite of Door-Mat behavior, and Joe was a significant part of that. Even if he held Aisha back...honestly that speaks more to Aisha's own nature as a hot-head and her own triggers, then it does Joe self-sacrificially ignoring his own problems in this case.
Though, I think part of the problem with communicating that sense of activity is...
This. The whole content of the latest chapter was covering most of the previous chapter from a different perspective and showing how the CF was being 'active' about doing something about this.
Now, I'm not going to whinge about the pacing. That hat is so old it's in a museum at this point. Chapters are long, about half-n-half tech description and plot (barring exceptions that are mostly one of the two for particularly notable Forge Rolls or Plot events/fights). That's just how you like to write them, and 2 million words in I hope everyone here is at least fine reading them.
With that said, combined with the AN, it seems like the primary point of the chapter (besides the new Forge roll and what it does explanation), was showing how on-top of things the team is being and how much Joe has advanced as a character. Something related to his dreaded past has shown up, and in response after putting out the immediate fires and stopping reckless retaliation, Joe rightly figured he has more important shit to do and can leave it to the others, whom he trusts. Compare that to the family phone calls that aren't nearly as potentially consequential as this scandal, and that he took wound-first and resulted in near panic attacks. But...this isn't actually all that 'much' in terms of substance. Dragging it out over 14 THOUSAND words, where that message was also interrupted by summarizing the last chapter or being interrupted by Forge exposition? The message was clear, but it got heavily diluted. Actually, in that regard the original AN was right. Logically Joe's actions showed he wasn't being a Door-Mat or rolling over, emotionally it was all so bland that that wasn't strongly conveyed. Even with stronger language though, I fear it still would have been smothered just due to the nature of the chapter.
Personally? I'd say pick only one or two spots to really hammer that point home, and above all else, keep them continuous. Then let the rest of the chapter not be about trying to continue exposition about events that were already covered the prior chapter. Make it more concise and distinct within the chapter rather then spread over most of it.
Edit: Actually, if the most important goal of the chapter was definitively show-casing how Joe and the CF aren't just rolling over for this scandal before they move on? It might have been best if this was actually mostly an alternate POV again. Specifically, if it was Tetra. The one that has the clearest insight into pretty much everyone involved, and can reasonably 'directly' monologue about how the characters are taking things or have progressed. With Joe, the focus has to be all about showing, not telling, both because he doesn't know everything and he is specifically a bit of an unreliable narrator. With Sabah, her chapter quite effectively communicated how panicked she was, but she also wasn't in the kind of mental head-space where she could self analyze. Tetra? Has the connections and multitasking to have been dedicating attention to both of them for most of the evening, and the intrusion + collaboration with Survey to get the parts before she joined Parian. Want a chapter to elucidate how things are really going on and what the Celestial Forge will be doing (and not doing) going forward? Tetra can quite conveniently answer all of it with little ambiguity. Then just finish the chapter with Joe getting his new perk and deciding to put this all behind and focus on his other objectives (start the next arc), leaving the rest of this mess to his comrades.
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ExploerTM
Ruin has found you at last!
- Location
- Russia, Perm
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Yep, because one of the biggest reasons why capes dont have constant Apeiron-related nightmares is because he VERY closely follows The Unwritten Rules. To such extent even, that you can remove the Un- part. Joe doesnt want to know secret identities because he then can state that he doesnt unmask capes and not a single thinker in the world would be able to tell that this is a lie.
-you saying that this was unimportant feels very annoying after you dedicatet 2 1/2 chapters of this.
i wouldnt have commented there if the latest chapter had like ,a single paragraph about it. i made a jokey negative comment about pariah.and that was my entire reaction .
-this felt like a very important( to you) and central part of the mcs character development,since you spend so much time foreshadowing this and addressing this.
what was this? why did you feel the need to write more about this after the last chapter? is this the chubster thing again? i like chubster that was a good interlude. This is like making a chubster interlude for.
im not writing it . im genuinly worried if i write what i dont want to read,you will write a chapter about it.
-joe tries to downplay the situation and reduce consequences at every point. If some random guy shoots parian, i would not be in any way happier.
i want joe to push back. joe.not someone else, not against his wishes, not masskvely. just joe and some pushback. him becoming less of a doormat is the greatest part of his character development. ( in my opinion at least) this was the second chance to demonstrate that in this fic. it this point ,i would be happier if the chapter showed joe just annoyed at parian . something. anything. just ,someone tried to accuse you of being a.. . .
just react you goddamn doormat!
these are my feelings.
in accordance with the authors wishes i will not comment further on this thema,and not react to reactions to my comments. i will try to comment the bext time on a part of the writing i genuinly enjoyed and can be positive about.
i wouldnt have commented there if the latest chapter had like ,a single paragraph about it. i made a jokey negative comment about pariah.and that was my entire reaction .
-this felt like a very important( to you) and central part of the mcs character development,since you spend so much time foreshadowing this and addressing this.
what was this? why did you feel the need to write more about this after the last chapter? is this the chubster thing again? i like chubster that was a good interlude. This is like making a chubster interlude for.
im not writing it . im genuinly worried if i write what i dont want to read,you will write a chapter about it.
-joe tries to downplay the situation and reduce consequences at every point. If some random guy shoots parian, i would not be in any way happier.
i want joe to push back. joe.not someone else, not against his wishes, not masskvely. just joe and some pushback. him becoming less of a doormat is the greatest part of his character development. ( in my opinion at least) this was the second chance to demonstrate that in this fic. it this point ,i would be happier if the chapter showed joe just annoyed at parian . something. anything. just ,someone tried to accuse you of being a.. . .
just react you goddamn doormat!
these are my feelings.
in accordance with the authors wishes i will not comment further on this thema,and not react to reactions to my comments. i will try to comment the bext time on a part of the writing i genuinly enjoyed and can be positive about.
Neko-tama
[Verified Cat] [Verified Writer]
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Good, let's move on from this. In my experience, the idea of punishment is so ingrained in our culture that no matter how obviously it would be wrong/pointless/counterproductive to dish it out, choosing compassion, and pragmatism instead is always gonna piss off a vocal number of indoctrination victims. No point worrying about it. Just do what feels right to you Roust.
Let's move on and do something that we can all enjoy, like speculating what Perk Joe will gain in the next chapter.