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Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)

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Magos Tractor-1 said:
Ever wonder if Apeiron will overcome the inherent limitations of human resurrection through Alchemy? I know he has better ways to do it, but if forced to use Alchemy, can Joe trade a crafted soul, a literal divine one, for the soul of a mundane person that has passed on. We know for a fact that the souls given to him by Hell via FedEx has been improved above baseline human, I'm just curious how a soul forged by a nascent Creator God stacks in the scales known as 'Equivalent Exchange'…

PS: Treat this as a Hypothetical Scenario.
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If he could find where the soul went to and exchanges, equivalent or otherwise, were a thing there then sure; it would presumably even be possible to trade a soul atemporally to get it from the past.
verycoolname said:
Edward 'revives' his brother by moving him from inside the Gate to outside the Gate, with the price being the ability to access the Gate. It isn't true revival.

True revival is problematic thanks to the inability for the living to access the afterlife to get at the soul they want. Alchemists can turn a pile of paper and ink into a book, but the best they can do is a copy of a book they already memorized. They can't summon a book they haven't read from another dimension, no matter what they tried to exchange for it.
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Thankfully there's apparently a Shard just chocked full of the writing that Victor is looking for and perfectly willing to write it onto a book that looks like the one he's making.

Relatedly the Homunculi from Fullmetal Alchemist were made with a poor understanding of how living things were made; I am fairly sure that competently made, or possibly competently modified ones as could be modified by healing Capes a la Othala or Biotinkers a la Blasto, Homunculi wouldn't need to be constantly remade as the Homunculi from Fullmetal Alchemist were.
 
Magos Tractor-1 said:
I'm just curious how a soul forged by a nascent Creator God stacks in the scales known as 'Equivalent Exchange'…
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If there's one thing that can be equivalently exchanged for a unique and priceless soul, it is that same unique and priceless soul. Other souls are different, not equivalent to each other, but using the actual soul of the person being resurrected should satisfy that particular requirement.
 
LordRoustabout said:
On the surface it looked like a joke. Blasto was in a costume that seemed more like a white pimp coat than any kind of serious work of tinkering. The fact that he was accompanied by two creatures that looked like monstrously oversized Bedlington Terriers didn't help matters. It was the closeups shots and details of subsequent pictures that made it clear what Victor was looking at.

Between shots the fibers of Blasto's coat would rearrange themselves, weaving into spikes, blades, or armored plates. It was a kind of living costume, one that exceeded any of the works the biotinker had demonstrated to date. Perhaps not in scale, the Woad Giant still held that title, but there was a dexterity and power that set it apart. Blasto had reached the rooftop by climbing the exterior of the building along with his creatures, and doing so at surprising speed. Photos of rents in the concrete of the exterior wall were included with the rest of the images.
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Do you think Survey and Joe will make the connection that this suit was created to emulate Tetra? And how would Tetra react? Would she be flattered or outraged?
 
DakieSalamander said:
The Fugue is only that the Shard is taking over the person to force him to build. It's not a psychological problem. It's physical one, and the Shard is much smarter than an average Tinker. It would be able to use Transmutation with quite ease. Maybe even better than the Tinker himself.



They are plenty smart, but they are running around blinded. Yes, Cauldron is moronic, and I hate them to the bone. And they researched how to get Vials quite easily on their own too.
On the other hand, they have nothing else than to throw shit at wall and see what sticks. Even their fight against Endbringers is nothing than a small intermezzo without actual impact. (yea, I know, in orig Eidolon suicided when Scion overgarged his PtV and told him "You needed worthy opponents", blablabla) In the end, they try to save the multiverse, and they decided to sacrifice several Earths out of 10^47...

We just care about Earth Bet, Aleph, Shin and Gimel because it's our 'Earths'.
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Correction: Cauldron's goal was not to save the multiverse. Cauldron's primary goal was to, when Scion's inevitable rampage came, preserve the existence of humanity by any means possible. As Scion's power-level is easily enough to completely destroy all iterations of humanity. To this end, they ultimately succeeded in what they set out to do.
Iridesce said:
Honestly I'm wondering if him stealing the skills to be a good husband or emotional maturity is even working as he seems to think it is. I personally doubt that it does. I think that him stealing those skills does a couple of things, 1 he picks up some positive skills/traits such as the ability to understand his wife and himself plus basic communication skills. 2 random useless tricks and coping mechanisms that don't really apply to him and his relationships. 3 unhealthy and negative coping skills plus malipulitive social skills from seemingly happy and adjusted people who just weren't. Because really how would his shard even know if he wants that random skill and if that coping mechanism is even good. Even if it could would it even care? Plus we know that he doesn't only drain mentally healthy people he has drained random abb gang bangers who I doubt have the best emotional skills. I think that he has just convinced himself that these skills are good when a lot of them really aren't. Then you have to consider that he didn't have the best base to build on with what we know of him pre trigger, he was already involved in the Herren clan and shady business. Then he triggered which means that he was already the type to trigger then got mentally wrecked from tramma. Then the people that he would of first started draining would not be paragons of mental health. Then he spends almost all his time around e88 members who he is subtlely draining and these guys are people that you don't want to copy but he is... Constantly. I don't think Victor really realizes this but he is probably a wreck held together with tape and hopeful wishes. He has just convinced himself that he is fine because of his power. Just like every other parahuman he looks to his power to solve all his problems and it doesn't.
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i love this interpretation - in stealing the mediocre coping mechanisms of his victims, he has only strengthened his ability to convince himself that he is always fine at all times and nothing is ever wrong
dragon_cloud16 said:
I brought this up before but it would depend on what would hurt most to Scion when he did it. Such as not being able to complete the Cycle thanks to suffering a massive corruption within him to connect to and utilize his Shards. While also losing the Thinker completely as Eden turns into some sort of horrific monstrosity that is incompatiable with her Shards that actually causes more damage to their System then anything else.
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Scion has been unable to complete the cycle since the avatar was created and the thinker entity's avatar never showed up. That is the reason for his sadness - the avatar's purpose in life is to do the cycle, and it noted immediately before the human-emotion-emulators turned on that this purpose in life was now impossible for him to complete.
Guyman said:
Oh dear.
Alchemy is a bomb, except it's spread can only be controlled by controlling the information... and it's much easier to "smuggle" a text on how to do the alchemies than it is to smuggle a gun...
If the knowledge begins spreading, Jozef will need to start a foundation to license, instruct and control knowledge of alchemy.

But I think that was already vaguely in the agenda. His understanding of culture means that once Zion is dealt with, he will not be able to ignore the improvements he could make by guiding this civilization. Imagine: he'd be able to detect and disarm extremist philosophies before they even begin to take ground. With a few gentle prods, he could masterfully prevent stagnancy and systematic corruption.
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I find it beyond absurd that someone with a masterful understanding of culture and how to guide civilization (and is good-aligned) would decide that the best way to do that would be... the suppression of all 'extremist' politics, and the continuation of late-stage capitalism in perpetuity for the rest of eternity. Joe has everything that it would take to single-handedly perpetuate the memetic Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space Communism. any attempt to 'guide civilization' that stops short of this is cowardly.

People who don't understand a subject assuming that there is just some way to 'do it better' that just happens to look exactly the same way that we were already doing it except with better results are confusing "advanced skill and knowledge" with "magic powers". Don't get me wrong: Joe probably has the magical proficiency that it would take to make Capitalism an effective system for people with the reduction of human suffering in mind, the same way that he has the magical proficiency required to make a dull sword cut through steel. But that magical proficiency would be better served in the creation of a system that can hold on it's own without magical interference.

Other, unrelated thoughts, now that i've caught up with the thread:
Victor will probably survive the attempt at human resurrection. Some plausible theories for what he loses in exchange are the ones that suggest he lose his power/ability to use/control it, the skills that he gained with his power. but if we operate off of the theory that what a person loses is symbolic of what they had hoped to gain by trespassing into god's domain, then wouldn't it have something to do with his dead wife? Maybe his hope is to be able to speak to her again, and he loses his vocal chords? perhaps he hopes to love her again or the like, and loses his heart? perhaps he hopes to hear her voice, and loses his hearing? etc.
 
Guyman said:
Yes I know thank you. But I didn't want to bring that political shit up. Thanks.
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> talking about creating a better civilization through the suppression of perceived 'extremist philosophies' and the nullification of systemic corruption (therefore maintaining the existing state of late-stage capitalism in perpetuity)
> "i didn't want to get political though"
are you sure you know what politics is, Guyman?
 
SS_False_Hope said:
Perhaps I lack your wisdom, but where did he even mention Capitalism.
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what is the concept of "extremism" if not a dogwhistle for the centrist's opposition to change? - it reeks of capitalist realism. As a leftist, my political enemies may be considered "extremists" in the same sense that i am, but there are better words to describe those enemies than "extremist".

to dumb it down: those who oppose "extremism" in the general sense simply oppose the idea of changing society in a meaningful way. capitalism happens to lie at the core of this society and it's rot - so those who suggest that "extremism" is implicitly undesirable are in the same breath suggesting that capitalism should be preserved indefinitely.

In Essence, the concept of "extremist philosophies" as it is used in modern political discourse paints those who desire justice for the working class and those who desire (trigger warning) the elimination of minorities as equally insane lunatics. this, of course, privileges the status quo as the most desirable state of being. The status quo including late-stage capitalism. If Guyman did not intend that remark in the way that is used in modern political discourse, he failed to appropriately distinguish his meaning from that which we see in said discourse.

edit: but this is a fanfic thread, and this topic is a derail, so i'll stop now.
 
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MagicalAmbitions said:
what is the concept of "extremism" if not a dogwhistle for the centrist's opposition to change? - it reeks of capitalist realism. As a leftist, my political enemies may be considered "extremists" in the same sense that i am, but there are better words to describe those enemies than "extremist".

to dumb it down: those who oppose "extremism" in the general sense simply oppose the idea of changing society in a meaningful way. capitalism happens to lie at the core of this society and it's rot - so those who suggest that "extremism" is implicitly undesirable are in the same breath suggesting that capitalism should be preserved indefinitely. in essence, the concept of "extremist philosophies" as it is used in modern political discourse paints those who desire justice for the working class and those who desire (trigger warning) the elimination of minorities as equally insane lunatics.
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In the context Guymans' original post about Joe a pseudo god at this point, using his understanding of culture to disarm the "Extremists" of worm(you know the people like the Fallen, Slaughterhouse nine, the blasphemies). Which in all honesty ranks of the worst places to live in fiction, was him expressing his quiet distaste was about, not the horrible monsters that relish in the suffering of the innocent and just, but instead the humble revolutionary that just wants a better world for everyone from the evil clutches of centrism.
 
I hope that Tetra interacts with Blasto's coat. I could totally see it either being an absorption, where she just instantly takes control of it (read: rips control away from the shard)
Or, she looks at it and "hears" the same sort of thing we do when monkeys start shouting.
 
MagicalAmbitions said:
but if we operate off of the theory that what a person loses is symbolic of what they had hoped to gain by trespassing into god's domain, then wouldn't it have something to do with his dead wife?
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Well... no. You see, Victor doesn't actually go into human transmutation for the sake of his dead fiancé. He goes into the god's territory for the sake of going into god's territory.

Throughout all the interlude, Victor bemoans that despite all "his" skills, he's only on the edge of human abilities, never beyond it, like other paras. Now, with knowledge of Alchemy, he thinks it changed.

Here's a bit about Victor from Lord:
Victor is extremely focused on the first 'real' power he's had. His mind is filled with ways he can exploit the ability and how he can take it to places even it's original user couldn't imagine. In his perspective, once he's mastered resurrection nothing else is going to matter to him. It's his chance to jump from middle ranks of a single-city gang to the big leagues of capes. Victor has plenty of reflection skills, but is somewhat elective in how he uses them. That's evident from the fact that he's stayed committed to a Nazi gang despite numerous analysis skills that should have informed him of what a bad idea it is. His idea of 'I'm too smart to fall into thinker traps' is effectively his thinker trap.

Victor has a lot of problems, and overconfidence in his power is one of the most prominent of them. He has taken skills that would normally shore up his personal weaknesses, but like with all his skills there's a level of separation to them. He didn't earn or develop any of his abilities so he doesn't have an emotional attachment to them. He probably sees that as a good thing since it means he's not favoring certain sub-optimal abilities, but it also means he only uses certain skills when he thinks he needs them. He is capable of self-reflection and recognizing his limits, but will only do it as much as he absolutely needs to since in his mind, he's 'better than that'.

Victor has the particular flavor of arrogance that is practically designed to be torn down by Truth, with a corresponding physical price paired with it. When Victor inevitably runs into Truth he'll leverage all of his debate, persuasion, and negotiation skills to their fullest, and fall completely flat because Truth doesn't care about any of that shit.
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Lena's revival is just a way for Victor to bloat his enormous ego even more.
 
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MagicalAmbitions said:
Victor will probably survive the attempt at human resurrection. Some plausible theories for what he loses in exchange are the ones that suggest he lose his power/ability to use/control it, the skills that he gained with his power. but if we operate off of the theory that what a person loses is symbolic of what they had hoped to gain by trespassing into god's domain, then wouldn't it have something to do with his dead wife? Maybe his hope is to be able to speak to her again, and he loses his vocal chords? perhaps he hopes to love her again or the like, and loses his heart? perhaps he hopes to hear her voice, and loses his hearing? etc.
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So how did Victor manage this whole thing anyway?

I mean, setting aside that his power doesn't let him permanently steal skills at the drop of a hat like this, the premise of the scene where it happened is that Survey and Apeiron could see what his power was doing and understood how it worked.

So what, they could see the exact mechanism, but when the shard said "Fuck the rules, I'm stealing the good shit" they didn't notice?

I guess that's possible, but it feels like a silly competence slip.

If they saw it actually performed a successful brain scan on one of them, why wasn't Apeiron's first concession request that they let him check for and remove any stolen knowledge?

I know Joe doesn't like those powers, but I imagine he'd like letting a neo nazi walk off with alchemy even less.
 
He got a tiny primer, analyzed the hell out of the city-wide 'fire to air' transmutation not just by himself but with a whole lot of Thinkers, and was able to extrapolate a fair amount of the true mechanics, including the 'equivalent exchange is required' part. (At least he's not getting on the horn with his brilliant idea of how to break a fundamental law of alchemy)

So it's possible in Somer's Rock Joe figured whatever he might have picked up from those he could reach was negligible, and this is one of many unintended consequences building in the background to come bite him in the back.
 
BronzeTongue said:
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First, only Survey was aware of Victor's powers at all time, as only she has Magic scanner built into her existence. Others probably have them on hand, but they still had to be made aware of danger by Survey. And after the warning, Apeiron did the opposite of watching Victor's actions. Not really important for the argument, just a thing to remember.

Second, Victor's powers were described by Survey as a constant stream of scanning. There were actually no moments of time when Victor's mind tendrils were not rummaging around everyone's attics. There was no way of knowing if Victor got anything valuable from minutes of constant scanning, and escalating the situation with demands right after concessions were made (remember, Victor talked with Lethe after DoD send him away) was against CF goals at a time.

As for how Victor managed to get Alchemy so quickly, here's Lord's WoG:
Victor had more interaction with Aisha than any other person in the bar, and had a specific reason to go after her. Once he realized what he was looking at he grabbed whatever he could get away with, coming out with just enough to make an attempt at transmutation.

In the time he had all he got was information on how to trigger a transmutation circle and the awareness that Aisha knew a tremendous amount about materials science. Even with a corporative passenger and the walking Sechen Range that is Apriron he didn't have time for anything more, not with the defenses of Aisha's armor fighting him. If the truth comes out Aisha will still be pissed that she was the source of the leak, but she had recovered what was taken before the end of the summit. She would need to have tried to perform a transmutation during that period to even realize something had happened.

Victor was uniquely suited for learning alchemy since he already had the scientific understanding needed to become a successful alchemist. Once he figured out the steps for triggering a transmutation circle things quickly fell into place. The actual art of alchemy is mostly secondary to the technical knowledge needed to support it. Basically, he just needed to connect his existing knowledge base to the principles of transmutation. The aspects of alchemy are being deconstructed by him and the various thinkers he is working with, but they are working from first principles with no real guidance. It's the kind of situation where they won't know about limits until they stumble into them. It's actually the complete opposite of how Alchemy was developed in FMA, where alchemy came before the more advance sciences that supported it. The principles of alchemy were well known before it was applied to advanced concepts, where here they have the advanced concepts and are trying to apply them to alchemy. As many people have surmised, it's not going to end well.
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MagicalAmbitions said:
are you sure you know what politics is, Guyman?
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Yes. I try to avoid politics like I try to avoid gamma radiation - that is, it's seeped into everything, but I can try and avoid the worst of it.
MagicalAmbitions said:
what is the concept of "extremism" if not a dogwhistle for the centrist's opposition to change? - it reeks of capitalist realism. As a leftist, my political enemies may be considered "extremists" in the same sense that i am, but there are better words to describe those enemies than "extremist".
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I need to quote some dictionaries to remove some of my confusion. (anything underlined or bolded is done by me for emphasis)
Extremist: a person who holds extreme or fanatical political or religious views, especially one who resorts to or advocates extreme action.
Extreme: furthest from the center or a given point; outermost
Fanatic: a person filled with excessive and single-minded zeal, especially for an extreme religious or political cause.

Maybe it's because of things like beliefs being butchered, but I'll spell out what I consider the "center".
Human beings.
I don't care about left vs. right, I don't care about red vs. blue, I don't care about money and I don't care about economic efficiency or central control.
If someone shows virtue, I gain some respect for them. If someone shows vice, I gain revulsion for them. These things scale up as virtues and vices scale up into groups and ideologies.
Albeit, it does not scale down nearly as effectively: people make up organizations, organizations do not make up people.
To put it politely, I find politics revolting and institutionalized hatred heinous.
There is only us.

IndigoPhoenix said:
Ah yes. The Fallen. The most misunderstood of villains.

And the Nazis are not advocating for change in a way I think you'd appreciate.
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All of this.
I regard both ideologies with revulsion.
MagicalAmbitions said:
If Guyman did not intend that remark in the way that is used in modern political discourse, he failed to appropriately distinguish his meaning from that which we see in said discourse.
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Ah yes, I do apologize for failing to avoid and failing to distinguish what I was saying from the memetic trash-heap that is left vs. right and elephant vs. donkey. Surely, I will bring myself to the point of exhaustion to appease the screaming lunatics who put ideology on a pedestal rather than the tools secondary to human wellbeing that they are. Definitely, I should learn to speak in nothing but Lojban so that I don't fall into the normal and comfortable ambiguity of the English language and thus always manage to always distinguish myself.

I have written enough. I've spent enough effort. I've made my point - even if I failed to be specific and distinguishable because this is an internet forum where I enjoy loafing. There will be no further communications from me on this matter.
 
Murderouslemon said:
Victor is just absolutely perfect to face Truth. But whatever Truth will demand for his trespass, I'm infinitely more curious what Truth would take from his power. Because it's certainly smart and involved enough to qualify for its own sanction.
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I'd be curious if Truth, seeing Victor's power/shard as the one who actually made the human transmutation possible via it's skill thieving, would loose DATA.

What is the most valuable thing to most Shards? DATA.
So if Victor does meet Truth, I see it more likely for Truth to take away DATA from his shard.

Of course, I can see Scion/Zion detecting this. From there, I see him vaporizing Victor in order to cull any 'infection' or DATA loss that might come from him. As that would be the only thing that makes sense to Scion/Zion.

Or Scion/Zion gets worried/concerned/curious and decides to disappear for while trying to find Truth.
So Cauldron runs around trying to find him, maybe seeing him once in awhile on alternate earths.

What really worries me, is if Scion/Zion is able to do what Victor is trying, but on a MASSIVE scale.

Do remember that Victor's Shard, all Shards, are apart of either the Warrior (Scion/Zion) or the Thinker (Eden).

Would using a massive amount of humans for ingredients to bring back Eden even work? Could a massive, multiple Earth sized transmutation array be able to bring her back?

That is what I'm concerned with now. Joe's skills are finally starting to get beyond his immediate control. Someone else has learned his skill.
Worse off, it is someone tied into a massive alien network of Bio-Crystalline Hyper Computers.

Yep I see this going really bad.....
 
BronzeTongue said:
So what, they could see the exact mechanism, but when the shard said "Fuck the rules, I'm stealing the good shit" they didn't notice?
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You are vastly overestimating what Survey could see. They didn't knew the exact mechanism, only that Victor power was active and hit everyone. Additionally, Lord confirmed that Victor stole a tiny fragment of Lethe knowledge, so small in fact that she recovered her alchemy ability before the end of the summit.

I'm not surprised the Celestial Forge missed that.

Amdar210 said:
Of course, I can see Scion/Zion detecting this. From there, I see him vaporizing Victor in order to cull any 'infection' or DATA loss that might come from him. As that would be the only thing that makes sense to Scion/Zion.
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Why ? That would bring absolutely nothing to Scion and it would be out of character for him.
 
Murderouslemon said:
Victor is just absolutely perfect to face Truth. But whatever Truth will demand for his trespass, I'm infinitely more curious what Truth would take from his power. Because it's certainly smart and involved enough to qualify for its own sanction.
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My bet is that Truth will take away whatever mechanism facilitates Shard-to-Shard communication. That way, even when they acquire new DATA, they can't share it with the rest of the Entity, which ultimately makes their life purpose worthless. Also, Shards are surprisingly sociable (Leet's Shard feels lonely), so that salt on the wound.

Amdar210 said:
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Jumping from material conversion to resurrection of fellow Entities is a bit of a leap for unimaginative Entities. More so for the one that was designed as "the stupid one", like Zion.

Also, here thoughts on how Zion would react to Truth from the Lord:
Base level alchemy isn't really beyond what Shards can manage for themselves. They can handle matter transmutation no problem, though usually use some multiverse-based tricks rather than just rearranging the materials and energy from a single universe. In terms of the cycle it's still a big find, and something that could be used to improve a lot of processes, despite its limitations. Going beyond base alchemy is where things get complicated. If you're dealing in souls you are breaking equivalent exchange, which is violating entropy, which is exactly what the entities have been looking for. Unfortunately, to even get the information on how to do that kind of thing you need to have a run in with Truth. Scion and all the shards are very much not ready to deal with something like truth. The idea of an existence like that would freak them out, and placing an inherent and infinite value on the 'souls' of their host species is something they couldn't fathom. If they could they would happily set up a mechanism of farming souls to hold off the heat death of the universe, but that is exactly the kind of thing that Truth will come down on them for, and an entity can't trump Truth. Basically, how Scion reacts will depend on what side of the alchemic process he learns about. It's either going to be passing interest or massive concern.
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Amdar210 said:
Would using a massive amount of humans for ingredients to bring back Eden even work? Could a massive, multiple Earth sized transmutation array be able to bring her back?
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Depends.
Her body is intact, it's just a question now of if she's in a coma equivalent, or if "higher" "brain" functions are no longer present: aka, "what's the soul doin?"
But I also expect experimentation. Truth is raw. Fuck around with him and find out - he's no mercy for the unrepentant. Such is the very nature of Truth and the Gate.
 
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