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Advice and Trust [NGE]

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Plus childhood trauma from watching said mother go insane enough to believe her real daughter was a complete stranger and instead fixate on a doll as "the real Asuka", and later commit suicide while attempting to do the same with said daughter (only she did it with the doll). Yes, very typical childhood.
 
MarqFJA87 said:
Alright, let me explain how my thought processes went, because I'm getting the feeling that there may be miscommunication happening.

  1. Established facts from canon that were floating in my background thoughts:
    1. Shinji and Asuka are attracted to each other, although it's hampered by their respective psychological issues and miscommunication (often involving their starkly differing beliefs of what constitutes as an unambiguous sign of one's attraction to another), such that neither of them is even remotely aware that the other reciprocating their feelings.
    2. Though Asuka expresses sexual attraction to both Kaji and Shinji, there is also evidence of her having a prudish outlook towards sexuality (such as repeatedly accusing Shinji of perverted behavior on sometimes flimsy grounds). This implies a rather conservative upbringing on at least the topic of human sexuality.
    3. Conclusion #1a: The clash between those two behaviors and the resulting emotional turmoil is likely a contributing factor to the gradual worsening of her psychological state.
    4. Conclusion #1b: Said clash would've likely caused her to panic if either Kaji or Shinji had actually taken her advances upon them seriously, with the immediate results of said panic being unpredictable but almost surely bad for everyone involved (possibly maintaining or worsening the status quo and the already existing vicious cycle that is eroding Asuka's mental health).
  2. Sudden epiphany while reminiscing about Advice & Trust and Doing It Right This Time:
    1. Other than Asuka expressing homosexual attraction to Rei (which came as a surprise to Asuka herself), and thus being technically bisexual, there are no indications from either the story itself or the authors' comments that this Asuka is noticeably different from canon (which, to be clear, differs between the fics on which point in the canon timeline was the story's Asuka taken).
    2. If we were to put the above point into the context of canon!Asuka's fragile psychology (as explained above), it would stand to reason that had A&T!Asuka gone through the same experiences as canon!Asuka did (i.e. no Shinji accidentally giving Asuka the impetus to deepen the kiss, leading to their subsequent confessions to each other about their feelings), then the homosexual attraction she would almost certainly begin to experience towards Rei later on (they would have to see each other underdressed/naked frequently, be it in the school's locker/shower room or in Nerv's for-the-pilots'-use locker/shower room) would've contributed to her worsening psychological state, especially when taking into account that with her demonstrated prudishness regarding heterosexual relations (see above), it's more likely than not that she was raised to consider homosexuality as aberrant (i.e. homophobia), which is not a healthy mentality to hold for a homosexual or bisexual.
    3. Logically, the above clash between having a homophobic attitude and realizing that she's bisexual has very likely already happened to DIRTT!Asuka, since she has already gone through the entire canon timeline's events once already. Given that she only began to realize her bisexuality after reuniting with the looping DIRTT!Rei, the logical conclusion is that her turmoil over the aforementioned clash happened without her ever consciously realizing what was happening.
    4. Throughout the TV series, while some characters may have noticed hints of Asuka's attraction towards Shinji, pretty much nobody seemed to realize just how incompatible each of the kids' approach towards relationships is, and especially how messed up Asuka's roundabout methods are (though part of the reason is that she seems to always pick a time when nobody else is around, and Shinji never feels a need to ask someone about his problems). Either they're that good at hiding this part of their turmoil from others, the others are that unobservant, or (in Gendou and Ritsuko's case) they know but don't give a fuck.
    5. Conclusion: It's not that far-fetched that Asuka's latent bisexuality could've slipped under the rest of the cast's radar. That we don't see any hints could be because we're seeing things from the characters' perspectives (including Asuka, who as I've stated earlier may very well be blind to her own sexual orientation's true nature).

... In hindsight, I think I'm at least partly to blame for the misunderstanding for not clearly stating that I was also thinking of DIRTT!Asuka when I first brought this up.
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You are doing it again, starting from conclusion and then using excuse that it wasn't mentioned that there is difference in DIRTT while very premise of fic require characters to follow certain mold... Look, part one is in no way connected to part two and those require your conclusion to be right. So here I'm not even attacking your point but way you present it, thus making it dismissible.

I'd also point that for Asuka, Rei represent all that she hate, despise, loath and so on.
You'd need someone putting real work to show that there is more to Rei than publicly accessible (which would be Shinji as only person who actually got her to really express herself) or Instrumentality before she'd be anything more than object of loathing.

I really hope we get to see some strangeness happening with Rei's detox to hint there is more to her than being raised by NERV and unnatural hair colour, maybe unnaturally fast recovery now that she has at least some semi professional aid.
 
aja318 said:
You are doing it again, starting from conclusion and then using excuse that it wasn't mentioned that there is difference in DIRTT while very premise of fic require characters to follow certain mold... Look, part one is in no way connected to part two and those require your conclusion to be right. So here I'm not even attacking your point but way you present it, thus making it dismissible.
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You are completely glossing over the fact that I explicitly said that Part 1 was something that was in my mind when I had the epiphany that Part 2 is about. I was trying to show you the gist of how my train of thought went step by step when I wrote my first post on this topic. And I referred to Part 1 multiple times throughout Part 2. Do I need to highlight those references in bright colors for you to notice?

Also, I am going to be brutally honest here: The way I see it, right now you're doing a poor job of "attacking my argument" since you're not taking it apart and showing how it's wrong; instead you twist what I said and claim that it's nonsensical without explaining how.

I'd also point that for Asuka, Rei represent all that she hate, despise, loath and so on.
You'd need someone putting real work to show that there is more to Rei than publicly accessible (which would be Shinji as only person who actually got her to really express herself) or Instrumentality before she'd be anything more than object of loathing.
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... Exactly how is this relevant as an attack on my argument?
 
MarqFJA87 said:
You are completely glossing over the fact that I explicitly said that Part 1 was something that was in my mind when I had the epiphany that Part 2 is about. I was trying to show you the gist of how my train of thought went step by step when I wrote my first post on this topic. And I referred to Part 1 multiple times throughout Part 2. Do I need to highlight those references in bright colors for you to notice?

Also, I am going to be brutally honest here: The way I see it, right now you're doing a poor job of "attacking my argument" since you're not taking it apart and showing how it's wrong; instead you twist what I said and claim that it's nonsensical without explaining how.
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To put it simply, again, your arguments don't add up to conclusion, they exist to justify it. Validity of your arguments is dependent on validity of answer, so if answer is true, arguments are valid, if it isn't they aren't.
 
aja318 said:
To put it simply, again, your arguments don't add up to conclusion, they exist to justify it. Validity of your arguments is dependent on validity of answer, so if answer is true, arguments are valid, if it isn't they aren't.
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... OK, I officially admit that I am now very confused. And I'm not sure if a full night's sleep* will help clear out this confusion.

* it's 12:00 AM right now, and I've been awake since 7:30 AM.
 
Stormseed said:
Is there really anyone here that isn't a member of both sites? I posit that there isn't.
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I'm only a member here, too. I've taken a look or two at SB from time to time and considered actually creating another account over there as well, but ultimately decided against it. I've never been too much of a forumite, really, and I have enough with the handful of threads I update and follow over here. :)
 
Stormseed said:
Is there really anyone here that isn't a member of both sites? I posit that there isn't.
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Stargrave said:
I'm actually reasonably certain Fernandel isn't one. :p
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I actually am a member of SB. Technically. I lurked for a while, enjoyed stories, liked it a lot. But I joined up before the Great Schism... And when I saw how Athene had been treated by the SB staff, I bugged the hell out of there and never looked back. I have less than twenty posts over on SB, I think -- I'm a Velociteer through and through, and fiercely proud of the site and what has been created here.

And I was just trying to poke a little fun, Stormseed. No harm intended. My apologies if it came across as rude or mean.

But this is frightfully off topic, folks, and I regret ever starting this tangent. I realise I'm on leave, but could I please ask you to stop?
 
too late, the cat's out of the bag now. :p
Byyyyye kitty!!!!!
Just try and catch it now.
 
MarqFJA87 said:
You are completely glossing over the fact that I explicitly said that Part 1 was something that was in my mind when I had the epiphany that Part 2 is about. I was trying to show you the gist of how my train of thought went step by step when I wrote my first post on this topic. And I referred to Part 1 multiple times throughout Part 2. Do I need to highlight those references in bright colors for you to notice?

Also, I am going to be brutally honest here: The way I see it, right now you're doing a poor job of "attacking my argument" since you're not taking it apart and showing how it's wrong; instead you twist what I said and claim that it's nonsensical without explaining how.
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Everyone has repeatedly pointed out and explained in exhaustive detail why you are wrong. It's a common logical fallacy called "begging the question."

And yes, that is what you are doing. Your response basically consists of saying "no I'm not" and then going ahead and doing exactly what you say you are not doing.

You are assuming your conclusion in your premise, thus if the premise is true obviously the conclusion is true, because you just assumed it was true.

That is not a valid argument, it's invalid, obviously invalid, and maybe you should go read wikipedia on "begging the question" because if you aren't getting our explanations of it here, maybe they can help you.
 
Ahem.

When someone notes that "we have gone off-topic, can we please abandon the derail and get back on-topic", it is perhaps not a wise course of action to go "nyah nyah, can't make me!" and continue the tangent.

When that person is a moderator, and the thread in question is run by another moderator and followed by at least two more, it might be suggested that such a course of action is not so much "unwise" as "suicidal".
 
Crazael said:
I personally took it as "It'll take an act of God for me to allow you coming in here". That just made more sense to me with her behavior than "I want you to sleep with me".
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Which seems plausible until you realize Asuka just walked into that room, but less than 5 seconds later opens the door back up on her knees to give Shinji the 'Jericho' line while making sure to give him a blatant shot down her shirt.

This means Asuka had to deliberately drop to her knees and position herself specifically to offer him that view. The shot of Asuka suffering crushing depression when she realizes he's not coming nails it home, but we don't see that until her flashbacks to the moment much later, during her mind rape.

This is why I'd have to disagree with that thread's conclusion that Asuka would have panicked or slapped Shinji if he'd taken the hint and tried to make a move on her. Given how hard Shinji's failure to act hit her, she really wanted him to try that night. The fact that he didn't hurt her more than she expected. Asuka may or may not be a prude/scared, inexperienced girl at heart, but she wanted Shinji to try and make her feel desirable. I don't think she'd have panicked, not least because she was the one 'initiating' things by making her request-hint, and one of the things she 'liked' about Shinji in that context is (for all that she loudly proclaimed it in public) she knew he wasn't a hentai-boy that would jump all over her. He was attractive to her, and low-threat, essentially. Safe.
Aleph said:
Ahem.

When someone notes that "we have gone off-topic, can we please abandon the derail and get back on-topic", it is perhaps not a wise course of action to go "nyah nyah, can't make me!" and continue the tangent.

When that person is a moderator, and the thread in question is run by another moderator and followed by at least two more, it might be suggested that such a course of action is not so much "unwise" as "suicidal".
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Thank you, Aleph. :)
This is what is known as a 'subtle hint', everyone. Let's not cause unhappy Staff in a thread that is rather heavily populated with such. We wouldn't want something to disrupt my momentum and not have an update this Friday, right? Since @kokuenDG, @minuseven, and @Álli Méra have already triggered the usual tradition.
 
Strypgia said:
Touji shook his head. "Nothin'. No phone call last night, nothing since last Wednesday. They won't let me go see her, either. That Doctor Akagi told me I wasn't allowed, that she was running some kinda 'delicate tests' on her that I couldn't disturb." He looked intensely worried. "I... guess I kinda know what ya mean, about... I don't feel right without her no more. This... can't you two find out anything? You're NERV Pilots too. And... Major Katsuragi was here just this morning, picking up Ayanami for somethin'! Can she...?" The big jock's hands nervously grasped at nothing.

Shinji and Asuka shared a look. Shinji watched the blood drain from his girlfriend's face and felt her hand suddenly grip his much tighter. He knew exactly what terrifying thought was running through her mind. ''Tests'? Doctor Akagi was just fine with drugging Rei into a stupor every day. What's she doing to Hikari?!'
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Ok, I know that I was one of the people who suggested why Asuka and Shinji should be worried about Hikari being in Ritsukos "care". And while I still believe that it's not a good situation for Hikari to be at the mercy of a doctor with a broken moral compass and a license to do anything that produces the desired results. In this case answeres about how to get out of an EVA's core. I can't shake the mental Image of Shinji, Asuka and Misato all but breaking down the doors to the lab, just to find out that the tests are indeed harmless and just need a verry controlled environment, hence the isolation.

So, ladies and gentlemen the bets are open. What will our heroes find in their valiant attempt to free their friend? Human experimentation bordering on the insanity of the experimments of Dr. Frankenstein? Or Hikari and Maya laughing over some joke while Ritsuko goes over the test results and prepares the discharge paperwork?
 
Strypgia said:
Which seems plausible until you realize Asuka just walked into that room, but less than 5 seconds later opens the door back up on her knees to give Shinji the 'Jericho' line while making sure to give him a blatant shot down her shirt.
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I figured the sequence went something like this:
Asuka walks into the room after giving Shinji a few parting words, starts getting into the futon, then realizes Shinji might sneak into the room during the night and promptly turns around to warn him off without realising the position she's in.

Now, I'm not saying my interpretation is more right, because it clearly isn't with all the evidence, but when I first watched the series, that's how I read it.
 
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