Advice and Trust [NGE]

[TehChron]

Watch some ones face when you tell them that the Bible was not Written by God.

Then remind them that it is in fact a collection of Testimonial Letters, and Journals.

Then you can tell them that Most of the New Testament can be read as Fanfiction of the Old Testament.

That King James had a The thing Rewritten to Justify his divorce, or at least to enable it.

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Ugh, its really a complicated mess doing that when dealing with hardcore types when trying to justify the rights of some of us to be divergent from their own personal beliefs

The nature of human imperfection is completely lost on them sometimes

 

[Elder Haman]

why do i get the feeling you got this from xkcd?

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Nope. Econ 380, Professor Lambson was covering for Showalter, and brought up the economic description of altruism, and then suggest we try using it as a way of romancing female econ students. (The joke being that there was only a single female econ student in whole department, she was the TA, and already engaged).

This was a few years before xkcd made the joke...

Man I feel old.

I'm a twenty something year old med school student with relatively normal life, and I have absolutely no idea what the fuck is that wall...

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Well if you were a forty something or even a thirty something you probably would have heard the song "Joshua fought the battle of Jericho," you can still look it up on Youtube if you want to fill this hole in your knowledge.

I'm born of atheists parents and is an atheist myself . Never touched the bible in my life.
So any reference to it will fly over my head.

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You're missing out then on tons of things in English literature and culture. (English lit is overwhelmingly dominated by two sources: Shakesphere and the KJV Bible -and the Bible is most of it).

Especially in America where for a long time the Bible was literally the only book most people had and the way most Americans learned to read. There is a reason it's called La Biblia (The Book). Lincoln for example is almost incomprehensible with out knowing the Biblical allusions he was making.

Watch some ones face when you tell them that the Bible was not Written by God.

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1: Depends on who you are telling that to
2: Most people when they say "written by God" mean "people inspired by God wrote it" and usually mean the prophets and the law, not the chronicles.
3: That kind sounds like trolling

Then remind them that it is in fact a collection of Testimonial Letters, and Journals.

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And Chronicles, and prophecies, and laws as given by Moses, and the history of the creation world as dictated to Moses by God, and poetry, and songs, and proverbs, and a whole lot more.

Then you can tell them that Most of the New Testament can be read as Fanfiction of the Old Testament.

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Uh... no... no... not... not really.

Not sure where the heck that is coming from, as the New Testament is over 90% the life of Jesus, the acts of the apostles, and the letters of Paul and other apostles. With the remainder the apocalyptic prophesy of Revelations.

None of which really reads as Old Testament fanfiction (which would have had a lot more smiting in it than exists in the New Testament).

The closest you maybe get is the gospel of Matthew, since he was writing to the Jews he did quote quite a bit from the Old Testament, but even his gospel isn't very Old Testament like.

That King James had a The thing Rewritten to Justify his divorce, or at least to enable it.

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Uh... what?

I think you might have King James confused with Henry VIII. Henry VIII was the one that broke from the Catholic Church over his desire to divorce, not King James. And it had nothing to do with the King James Bible, which by the way, still depicts Jesus as explicitly opposed to divorce - so if that was the motive (which it wasn't) - it would been a case of massive fail.

Truthfully, most of the King James Version is based on Tyndale's translation. A one man job, done while in exile, that then cost him his life (he was burned to death). And that was Henry VIII that killed him if I remember right (back when he was still Catholic, and Protestants like Tyndale had to be killed).

So the source of the King James Version was very unlikely to be friendly to King Henry.

 

[Elder Haman]

Also... while I appreciate the "Insightful" ratings on my Jungian analysis of Evangelion post...

I'm kinda sad that no one has actually commented on it...

I threw that out there hoping it would help us get back on Evangelion topics...

 

[universalperson]

Also... while I appreciate the "Insightful" ratings on my Jungian analysis of Evangelion post...

I'm kinda sad that no one has actually commented on it...

I threw that out there hoping it would help us get back on Evangelion topics...

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Generally if people just leave ratings it's the textual equivalent of applause.

 

[Hexokinase]

Shakesphere

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I suddenly got the mental image of a jiggling ball.

3: That kind sounds like trolling

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meh. I'm a practicing Catholic and it didn't bother me. Maybe because I'm desensitized from le edgy atheist trolling. Even if it was trolly, that's in the low spectrum. So I'll give it a pass.

I'm kinda sad that no one has actually commented on it...

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I was going to, but it was too long, and I can't be contrarian about it since I agree 100%.

 

[Itsune]

Ugh, its really a complicated mess doing that when dealing with hardcore types when trying to justify the rights of some of us to be divergent from their own personal beliefs

The nature of human imperfection is completely lost on them sometimes

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Yes, it is a big case of don't get your facts in the way of my faith.

And we need to get back on track before some complains to a mod about a divergence to the discussion.

 

[Always Late]

Also... while I appreciate the "Insightful" ratings on my Jungian analysis of Evangelion post...

I'm kinda sad that no one has actually commented on it...

I threw that out there hoping it would help us get back on Evangelion topics...

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Ok, Lemme give it a shot. Unfortunately, I'm less familiar with Jung than Freud, and I'm not a psych guy. So bear with me, as it's the first time I've hit his brand of psych in awhile. This is going to take a bit of time...

 

[Voynich]

Also... while I appreciate the "Insightful" ratings on my Jungian analysis of Evangelion post...

I'm kinda sad that no one has actually commented on it...

I threw that out there hoping it would help us get back on Evangelion topics...

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To be honest I skipped that post at first because one week without seeing daylight (the one thing that sucks about working night shift during winter) + Wall Of Text (tm) + the words "Jungian analysis" are not a good mix. I've read it now and all I can say about it is that it's a good analysis and I can't find any real flaws in it.

 

[Kiriel]

Ok, Lemme give it a shot. Unfortunately, I'm less familiar with Jung than Freud, and I'm not a psych guy. So bear with me, as it's the first time I've hit his brand of psych in awhile. This is going to take a bit of time...

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If you've played Persona 3, then you already have an idea of what Jung tells you. If you have not, the core ideas are the Collective Unconsciousness (Hivemind) of Humanity, Personas or Masks that we show people, Shadows or the things we hide from others, and Archetypes or tropes that are similar across cultures (Like Orpheus and Izanagi to the Underworld, Hercules and Susanoo slaying a giant lizard, Wise Old Hermits, etc.).

As a Psych Student, it's one of the subjects I like along with Humanistic Psychology since I pretty much have to contemplate my navel, and then contemplate and analyze the navels of others.

 

[Prince Charon]

Have a few:
Terrible Fanfiction
Badly Thought Out, Inconsistent Scifi Franchise vs Other Badly Thought Out, Inconsistent Scifi Franc | Page 2
Announcement - New Moderator: Strypgia

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Tank you very much.

 

[Always Late]

Alright Elder Haman, here's my response:

Asuka is clearly Shinji's anima as represented by a Love Interest, while Shinji is clearly Asuka's animus.

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So If I'm understanding the wiki entry right, You're saying Shinji represents the traditional feminine qualities Asuka denies/lacks, while Asuka hold the traditionally masculine trains Shinji rarely demonstrates. That puts Shinji's protective rage streaks in a new light, but I'll get back to that.

I can understand the confusion, since in the first six episodes Rei is presented as Shinji's anima. However, while the anima is often the Love Interest, other common anima figures include younger sisters, daughters, and for a particularly young protagonist even the mother. In my opinion Rei during the first six episodes is a rather ambiguous anima figure. Still I would judge her as primarily a younger sister type of anima.

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Rei is a great anima figure for Shinji in his early stages, representing his inner self at the start of the show. Silent and withdrawn, abused and neglected, yet still beautiful and brave. In episode one, Shinji is called upon to protect Rei, and he does so- this represents his Call to Adventure. By the end of episode six Shinji has completed this development in working with Rei to defend others.

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I agree with this. I remember one review on youtube analyzing the introduction of Asuka as being perfectly set up to throw the audience out of the built-up comfort zone/status quo of the first six episodes.

While Rei is Shinji's anima figure in the first six episodes, the groundwork was also laid for Rei's future role in the rest of the series as one of Shinji's mother figures. Rei's similar appearance to Yui, Gendo's wife and Shinji's mother, combined with Rei's relationship with Gendo, in which she clearly serves as Gendo's anima figure, sets up a conflict between Father and Son over the Mother. In the final confrontation Gendo demonstrates his utter depravity by sacrificing his anima figure, and Rei representing the Mother chooses Shinji over Gendo. Culminating in Rei merging with Lilith, becoming Eve, the Mother of All Living. As this Eve figure Rei then absorbs all life on Earth (representing the retreat of mankind into the womb), and then giving birth to first Shinji, and then Asuka, as they are reborn into the world. Rei as a mother figure is even explicitly stated for us when Shinji tells her that she reminds him of a mother.

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Aaaand there's that Freudian influence. Remember when I said I was 'unfortunately' more aware of Freud? That's because I really disagree with his ideas, for varied personal reasons. But, the man's made his mark on pop culture, and given other imagery/setting details of the series, I'd be lying if I said Freud is not applicable to Eva.

Asuka on the other hand shows up in episode eight, and quickly establishes herself as Shinji's other half. They have very similar tragic backgrounds; they both identify piloting the Eva as providing their worth and value in life. In other aspects they are mirror images of each other. Asuka is a female dominated by her male aspects; Shinji is a male dominated by his female aspects. (This is why gender flipping of the Eva pilots is considered so illuminating). Shinji wants to run away from everything, Asuka wants to attack everything- fight and flight.

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OK, not much new info, so I'll mention the Shinji protective streak I brought up before here: Depending on one's interpretation of what happens when the Eva goes berserk, Shinji's buried hate hijacks the Eva to kill that which threatens the women in his life in an animalistic fashion, or he retreats into the mother figure of Yui who then gets her cannibal on. When Shinji isn't berserking, he is still motivated by protect the female figures in his life, his only real family, a traditional male role. How does all that fit into Jungian psych? You tell me. Also, you could do a whole other essay entirely on Asuka. I actually deleted an entire paragraph here when I found myself contrasting Asuka's track record in an Eva.

There comes a point in every man's life when he needs to leave his home and go out into the world to make his way, including finding his mate: The Other who becomes part of him. Asuka is clearly set up as the mysterious woman that Shinji cannot understand yet is deeply attracted to. (Yes, Rei is the archetypal "Mysterious Woman" from the viewers perspective, but for Shinji, Asuka is the more confusing woman.) Essentially Asuka is the anima of the man Shinji must become. The rest of the series can be interpreted as Shinji struggling with this development, continually tempted to run back to his mother figures (Rei and Misato), and then turning around and trying to connect with Asuka who he doesn't understand but needs to become one with.

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Makes sense. Shinji does pick up more traditionally masculine traits, like assertion, aggressiveness, and a protective instinct. Each of these trains come from a specific family/female figure in his life.

The reason Shinji goes to Asuka in the hospital is not because she is the only one left, but because Shinji is no longer complete within the bounds of his mother figures, and he feels the need for his Love Interest anima. Shinji's interaction with Asuka in Instrumentality represents Shinji's hatred and rejection of himself, culminating in his attack on his anima and the strangling of her. When Shinji learns to accept himself he leaves Instrumentality but is left alone and desolate without his anima. Then Asuka is returned to him, and the final scene represents the reconciliation between Shinji and his inner anima. Shinji is still in a place where he feels the need to destroy himself, but then his anima reaches up to caress him, signalling that she accepts him, even his disgusting elements. Shinji is now whole, and thus the show ends on a happy note.

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That's a new piece of looking at things. Never thought of seeing Shinji's violence towards Asuka as a form of hurting himself. It makes sense. Given how much Shinji cares for Asuka, what better way to make Shinji hurt than by taking that away? And it mirrors the established trend of violent, abusive people being victims of abuse/neglect/mental illness themselves.

This would probably be more clear except that NGE adopts a very ambitious storytelling goal. Unlike most such stories Asuka is not merely an anima figure playing out her role in the drama of the main protagonist hero. Asuka is the heroine protagonist of her own story that mirrors the hero protagonist. As such, Shinji represents her animus, and Asuka too must struggle with meeting her other half, a mysterious man who she cannot understand, yet is deeply attracted to. While Shinji must deal with accepting responsibility for his strength (ie Shinji needs to "man up"), Asuka struggles with accepting her weakness and allowing others to protect her. This is of course aggravated by Shinji's wimpy demeanor, as compared to Kaji's more mature manhood.

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Hm. Asuka does seem to be more of a series long 'B-plot', the same as Rei. While we do get flashbacks and cutaways, I feel that Shinji still has the spotlight, and is the perspective the audience usually sees things through. I'd probably see that more if someone went and wrote her canon NG:E story entirely from her POV, which I'd put money on having been done already.

Despite Shinji's weakness, he does continually come to rescue her. Which is why the Mind Rape scene is so devastating for Asuka. Her hero did not come rescue her, yet as she later complains, he does try to rescue Rei (Shinji's mother figure- thus representing the struggle between wife and mother in law). This is also devastating to Shinji as he is restrained by his father from protecting her, forced to watch his anima figure be violated. This is the scene that breaks the bonds created by their previous interactions over the previous dozen episodes, and causes the schism that needs to be healed before they can be reconciled. Asuka rejects her animus (Shinji) during Instrumentality as unworthy of her, a false animus who didn't protect her, and sees her as a sex object instead of respecting her as you would a wife and lover. It is implied by the caress while Shinji is strangling her, that Asuka forgives Shinji, and decided to rejoin him once Shinji had matured enough to leave Instrumentality, and thus they are reunited and Asuka is made whole.

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Big question seemingly unanswered there: Why? What's Asuka's motivation to forgive Shinji? What happened in her mind between the rejection in Instrumentality and the strangling that made Asuka change her mind?

Personally I found the decision to have both the anima and animus as protagonists in their own interacting stories elevates Neon Genesis Evangelion above the more common melodramas. It's truer to real life, in which it is not just about doing the right thing and then your Love Interest accepts you and off you go into the happy ending. Instead, real life requires both the man and the woman to choose to accept the other. This creates a lot of angst, as you might be ready to form a bond with the other person, but what if they aren't ready to bond with you?

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Apparently, Humanity dies.

As for Rei's initial role as the anima, that is a common motif in Coming of Age stories, for the younger sister to have the anima role in early parts of the hero's story, and to later be replaced as the anima by the Love Interest.

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yeah, I've seen that too.

One of the things that clearly marks Asuka out as the Love Interest of Shinji is that she is the only female who is never depicted as a mother figure to Shinji.

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Indeed.

Very Good analysis, I wish I could more easily find this sort of stuff on TVTropes.

If you've played Persona 3, then you already have an idea of what Jung tells you. If you have not, the core ideas are the Collective Unconsciousness (Hivemind) of Humanity, Personas or Masks that we show people, Shadows or the things we hide from others, and Archetypes or tropes that are similar across cultures (Like Orpheus and Izanagi to the Underworld, Hercules and Susanoo slaying a giant lizard, Wise Old Hermits, etc.).

As a Psych Student, it's one of the subjects I like along with Humanistic Psychology since I pretty much have to contemplate my navel, and then contemplate and analyze the navels of others.

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That stuff sounds more familiar to me, I guess I just didn't connect Jung's name to it all. Also, I need to play Persona 3.

 

[Strypgia]

Well, obviously I don't count lemons. And really, lemoning it is not only unnecessary, I think it's actually implausible. I highly doubt Asuka was willing to go even remotely that far, and Shinji is, well, Shinji. Keeping them in character I think the night would have ended awkwardly one way or the other, but with the right push it could have ended with less hurt and more understanding, which is perfect to get the ball rolling for a classic romance.

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I've seen a few that aren't, but yeah, most of them have to acknowledge that the Jericho scene is very early on in them knowing each other, so it would almost have to either be a lemon or just the very beginning of a relationship, and the night only ends with cuddling at best.

I did start thinking of... damn it. That OT3 everyone wants me to write after A&T and ACoS finish. This could be the PoD for that. It starts Asuka and Shinji earlier, but much more awkwardly, very uncertain to 'are we dating? is this a relationship now?', and Rei gets a chance to see it starting and as questions, becomes curious... gaaah!

I recall one story, but it was a one-shot.

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This one, 'Walls of Jericho'?

On an less than related note, I also recall a one-shot where the kiss scene goes horribly wrong and Shinji tells Asuka off.

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'Just A Kiss', I think. That one was a gutpunch.

 

[Always Late]

I did start thinking of... damn it. That OT3 everyone wants me to write after A&T and ACoS finish. This could be the PoD for that. It starts Asuka and Shinji earlier, but much more awkwardly, very uncertain to 'are we dating? is this a relationship now?', and Rei gets a chance to see it starting and as questions, becomes curious... gaaah!

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Yes. Yes we are.

This one,

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Noted.

I think. That one was a gutpunch.

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*reads* Easy on my squedely-spooch, I need that for testing tomorrow.

 

[RedrumSprinkles]

I did start thinking of... damn it. That OT3 everyone wants me to write after A&T and ACoS finish.

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I have to say, thank you for not making A&T an OT3 fic. I guess they're nice for WAFF and whatnot, but for some reason, OT3's really get under my skin - especially this one. Asuka and Shinji are enough for me. Adding anyone else feels... weird.

Heresy? Maybe. Sue me.

 

[Schpoonman]

Walls of Jericho wasn't a quarter as WAFFy as the opening chapter of Advice and Trust, but it wasn't bad. Would have liked a continuation of it, but I liked it as the author intended: A realistic FWOAN divergence.

Just A Kiss deeefinitely hurt to read a little bit. Nice and painful with some added fridge horror (and we thought Asuka broke badly in canon), but not as unreadable* as those Ritsuko/Mana abuse fics posted earlier in the thread. Good thing I was already planning on drinking tonight.

*: I don't mean badly written, but I didn't get more than a few paragraphs into either because they were too fucked up for me.

EDIT: And to keep with tradition of always editing my posts and stay on-topic-ish:

Dude. I will PAY YOU to write 1-2-3 once you're done with ACoS and A&T.

 

[ltmauve]

Great... this whole talk of how the whole Jericho scene could've went down differently inspired more madness on my part,

so enjoy:

Spoiler: Cae Lumis's random vision on how things could've gone down differently.

One quick look on Google through his NERV acquired Docomo SH06D later...

Shinji: Uh... Asuka... why would you tell me to keep out if Jericho's walls fell...? That's a pretty poor way of telling me to keep out.

*Asuka blinks and smiles he caught her bluff... only to growl he didn't figure the meaning behind why*

Asuka: Grrrr are you calling me stupid, stupid?!

Shinji: But I... well... uh.. um... well..

Asuka: Oh never mind! In or out?

Shinji: What....?

Asuka: In or out! One of those two answers promises pain, so choose wisely!

*Asuka raises her fist*

Shinji: How am I supposed to know which you want me to say?!

*Asuka sighs*

Asuka: Ach du Dummkopf... take a wild guess already stupid.

Shinji:................. *starts muttering to himself* I mustn't run away, I mustn't run away, I mustn't run away, I mustn't run away, I mustn't run away, I mustn't run away....

Asuka: UGHHH Pick already!

Shinji: IN! *Flinches, expecting pain to follow*

*Asuka smiles, rears her fist as if to follow through with the punch, only to pat him on the head instead*

Asuka: Good boy, you choose... wisely.

*Shinji Faints*

Asuka: Ach du Dummkopf... *drags a unconscious Shinji into her room and closes the door*

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Oh look, another thread with a "Strypgia is alright I guess" tag will be showing up soon I guess.
(no pressure)

 

[Schpoonman]

I thought the tag was "This is all Strypgia's fault."

 

[Cae Lumis]

Oh look, another thread with a "Strypgia is alright I guess" tag will be showing up soon I guess.

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I thought the tag was "This is all Strypgia's fault."

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It's both . But yes, there will be a new "Strypgia is alright I guess/ This is all Strypgia's fault" Tag showing up soon, and for anyone curious on what it'll be about, pm me. Damn it... and I promised myself I wouldn't shamelessly promote my brainchild like this.... didn't take me long to break that... sorry about that.

 

[MarqFJA87]

Clearly, all it takes to that incident to change is a quick google...

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Some EVA fans are convinced that the Second Impact pretty much erased Google and the Internet from existence. Kinda hard to blame them, with the distinct lack of evidence of their presence in post-2I scenes.

 

[Jake]

If not Google, then, what about Microsoft Encarta? I assume there was a Japanese translation of it at some point.

 

[khazit]

Some EVA fans are convinced that the Second Impact pretty much erased Google and the Internet from existence. Kinda hard to blame them, with the distinct lack of evidence of their presence in post-2I scenes.

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Of course, the Doylist explanation is that NGE was created before the golden age of the internet .

 

[MarqFJA87]

Everyone has repeatedly pointed out and explained in exhaustive detail why you are wrong. It's a common logical fallacy called "begging the question."

And yes, that is what you are doing. Your response basically consists of saying "no I'm not" and then going ahead and doing exactly what you say you are not doing.

You are assuming your conclusion in your premise, thus if the premise is true obviously the conclusion is true, because you just assumed it was true.

That is not a valid argument, it's invalid, obviously invalid, and maybe you should go read wikipedia on "begging the question" because if you aren't getting our explanations of it here, maybe they can help you.

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Well, while I try to figure out on my own what I was doing wrong and where did I start committing what you're saying I was committing... I'd like to note that Wikipedia disagrees with you on this one bit:

Begging the question is not considered a formal fallacy (an argument that is defective because it uses an incorrect deductive step). Rather, it is a type of informal fallacy that is logically valid but unpersuasive, in that it fails to prove anything other than what is already assumed.

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Logical validity and unpersuasiveness are not the same thing.

That is all. Now to figure out this mess...

 

[Always Late]

That is all. Now to figure out this mess...

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And now for me to duck and cover from the Mod-gods' wrath.

 

[Whiskey Golf]

Some EVA fans are convinced that the Second Impact pretty much erased Google and the Internet from existence. Kinda hard to blame them, with the distinct lack of evidence of their presence in post-2I scenes.

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Isn't that just because the internet and google weren't really things in 1995?

 

[Ranma-sensei]

Took the words right out of my mouth. I guess Asuka's gambit would probably work for any boy who's german, since she does have a very western paradigm. It likely won't work on someone Japanese, much less Shinji

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Yeah, no.

• One, not every German boy is religious.
• Two, the Walls of Jericho are not that interesting a topic that it would be touched upon in school more than once.
• And three, not every German boy is a genius and could navigate through Asuka's convoluted way of sending positive signals; for any definition of positive.

Though I might have gone over and knocked to ask for clarification.

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Brave man, that. Probably dead, but brave.

Damn! If I wasn't the only person awake on this floor I'd have gotten some funny Looks. Nice work.

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I was wondering about your late-night wanderings.

And kids, that's how Google (almost) saved the world.

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Assuming the San Andreas Fault wasn't triggered in Second Impact.

meh. I'm a practicing Catholic and it didn't bother me. Maybe because I'm desensitized from le edgy atheist trolling. Even if it was trolly, that's in the low spectrum. So I'll give it a pass.

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I'm... pretty sure Elder Haman meant that those people are trolls.