Personally I'm not really interested in criminations by anyone who didn't publicly predict that the Lesson choice would directly affect stratification or the faction system.

I didn't and I even did approval-vote it; so I am not criminating. However, I am sad and think it was a fuck-up which will cause us problems later on since it, at this point, does contradict Symphony, Greater Justice and Division of Power.

I am not even sure we can permaslot DoP anymore. @Academia Nut , does new Arete evolution contradict any of our other values?

So we show the population that this specific monkey is not all that strong with his big stick. Sure, that is a short term solution, but it will fix that "It is too late" problem - it will reign in the current acute problem, giving us time to develop societal counter-measures.

Won't work; without the example of it there will be no material to work with for our founders of inherent human rights and enemies of nobility.
We needed Ashryn to teach us that pride is a sin, remember?
 
Not subservient; a part of society; important, but not more equal than others.
The problem I have is that the trait explicitly says "the most powerful faction are people more equal than others"; they are above reproach and above king.

Healthy individualism would be evolution of Humility or Symphony lines: individual as a worthy part of community. This is toxic perversion of the good, worthwhile, individualism.

Eh, but the elites are above the rest of society, equality has nothing to do with it.
Same way the meager are meager, and not less equal than others.
The stations of life are stations of life, there is no equality in them as that defeats the whole point of success and failure and providence.

And as far as I understand it, this trait will drive the elites into even greater frenzy of improvement. And that focuses on improving that which they stand at the head of, an aristocrat is bound to better his demesne, for a glorious demesne showcases his own excellence. Same with a patrician who erects great works to immortalise himself.

There's nothing unhealthy about a culture that drives the elite to showcase thier glory.
Rome would have collapsed over night without the showery of its nobility.


And at any rate, this will set up a multiplicity of societies within the realm, a development that was likely de facto if not de jure. This will work rather well with PiA, symphony and Lords loyalty, as it emphasises the duties and roles of the various segments, and thier obligations to others.

Frankly, this could be utopia with just a bit of cultural focus.
 
Won't work; without the example of it there will be no material to work with for our founders of inherent human rights and enemies of nobility.
We needed Ashryn to teach us that pride is a sin, remember?
But it will show noble overreach, which is enough for now. Yes, we won't spontaneous develop the concept of human rights, but we don't need to. We just need to defend the status quo and shatter the Patricians' power for now.

So come on, join the preparations for the civil war!
 
I have a question that seems to have been left sadly unasked. What if we lose the civil war fracture and/or get invaded and end up with en even worse society, like say one enthusiastically embracing purity and practicing slavery?
I mean, it's not impossible? But if we fight now, the Patricians are the dirty rebels and we have two martial geniuses. Chances aren't bad to put down that rebellion.
 
Can we? It's a normal part of monkeybrain to think in stupid terms of "this gorilla has a big stick and knows how to use it so it is beyond the law"; it takes painful repressions and the like to force people to realize that it is wrong.
I think we are too unevolved as society to understand the concept of "nobody is above the law, no matter how great"; we need another Ashryn for people to remember that nobody is above community and start thinking in such terms.
In the meanwhile, all we can do to develop as much as we can factions that oppose patricians and are more egalitarian; which is, in our case, basically Priests and later on will be Traders since capital, for all its faults, does not care about your bloodline and status.

So....develop Symphony, Justice and Division of Power lines to counterbalance this. It is too late, we've lost this battle.


Multiplicity of laws, or even better : cultural /religious laws.
There's plenty of ways to establish royal supremacy without being overt or tyrannical about it.
 
I didn't and I even did approval-vote it; so I am not criminating. However, I am sad and think it was a fuck-up which will cause us problems later on since it, at this point, does contradict Symphony, Greater Justice and Division of Power.

I am not even sure we can permaslot DoP anymore. @Academia Nut , does new Arete evolution contradict any of our other values?



Won't work; without the example of it there will be no material to work with for our founders of inherent human rights and enemies of nobility.
We needed Ashryn to teach us that pride is a sin, remember?
Yeah sure, but please do note that this forum is a democracy. You gotta be willing to accept the consequences even if you lose. Just because your sad and think it a fuck up doesnt mean you get to blame people :V
I myself are not fond of feudalism, as it is terribly inefficient and lacking but this is a democracy
(Didnt vote for the winning vote myself, just pointing out cheers :))
Edit : For those voting for civil war, Please note that the patrician power is kinda.... huge right now. The people joining the patricians will not be few and remember that the foreign nations are likely not just watching our civil war.
 
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Why would our current heir be on our side? It's more likely the patricians will co-opt him.
Because they would also rebel against him? I mean, the heir rising against the monarch is of course not unheard of in history, but Shunmyn has shown no inclination of being hostile to his father, or ideologically committed to the Patricians, just... un-interested in running a central governance himself.
 
Eh, but the elites are above the rest of society, equality has nothing to do with it.
Same way the meager are meager, and not less equal than others.
The stations of life are stations of life, there is no equality in them as that defeats the whole point of success and failure and providence.

And as far as I understand it, this trait will drive the elites into even greater frenzy of improvement. And that focuses on improving that which they stand at the head of, an aristocrat is bound to better his demesne, for a glorious demesne showcases his own excellence. Same with a patrician who erects great works to immortalise himself.

There's nothing unhealthy about a culture that drives the elite to showcase thier glory.
Rome would have collapsed over night without the showery of its nobility.


And at any rate, this will set up a multiplicity of societies within the realm, a development that was likely de facto if not de jure. This will work rather well with PiA, symphony and Lords loyalty, as it emphasises the duties and roles of the various segments, and thier obligations to others.

Frankly, this could be utopia with just a bit of cultural focus.

Ehhh. Again, see the description of the trait: it explicitly says that most powerful faction cannot be suppressed. The king is explicitly less important than the most powerful faction.
I am now severely tempted to make Guilds into most powerful faction and look at the resultant Iron Age corporocracy: it will, at least, be more meritocratic than aristocracy, for to rise in guild you actually need skills which benefit society.
Multiplicity of laws, or even better : cultural /religious laws.
There's plenty of ways to establish royal supremacy without being overt or tyrannical about it.

Messy crapbasket of differing laws is how you get HRE. Nope.
 
Because they would also rebel against him? I mean, the heir rising against the monarch is of course not unheard of in history, but Shunmyn has shown no inclination of being hostile to his father, or ideologically committed to the Patricians, just... un-interested in running a central governance himself.

So they just need to seduce him to their side. They could for instance promise him hereditary rule if he overthrows his tyrant father.
 
I have a question that seems to have been left sadly unasked. What if we lose the civil war fracture and/or get invaded and end up with en even worse society, like say one enthusiastically embracing purity and practicing slavery?

Then we rebel against that as well. Many negative outcomes are possible here, but the civil war will at least actively promote change, whereas giving in to the Patricians' demands will stifle it. I'd rather societal fracture from which we can recover, rather than entrenched elites we cannot dislodge. I'd be much more willing to Distribute Land if anyone had a plan better than "hope we can use an Admin Hero in a Golden Age" for how to claw back the power this will give the Patricians, and all the further privilege they will use it to amass.
 
I am now severely tempted to make Guilds into most powerful faction and look at the resultant Iron Age corporocracy: it will, at least, be more meritocratic than aristocracy, for to rise in guild you actually need skills which benefit society.
*whispers* Do eeeet. And choose the radical option for it. *whispers*

Hell. I'd rather have a hereditary absolutist monarchy than to allow established landed nobility. It was never the king directly who exploited the peasants; it was always the local nobles.

So they just need to seduce him to their side. They could for instance promise him hereditary rule if he overthrows his tyrant father.
Well as said above, I'd not be against that if it also meant having no established landed nobility. But if the nobles convince him with that... ehhh, seems unlikely though, since he doesn't seem to have much interest in the whole ruling business, after all. He just wants to be a hero, write texts and fight wars.
 
Ehhh. Again, see the description of the trait: it explicitly says that most powerful faction cannot be suppressed. The king is explicitly less important than the most powerful faction.
I am now severely tempted to make Guilds into most powerful faction and look at the resultant Iron Age corporocracy: it will, at least, be more meritocratic than aristocracy, for to rise in guild you actually need skills which benefit society.


Messy crapbasket of differing laws is how you get HRE. Nope.

Whilst I am an ardent supporter of judicial independence for every town village and hamlet.
In here I meant creating a law code for each segment of society, as was done historically to control the segments without seeming to slight or demean them, it'd even help make em even more focused and driven on the ideals of what that segment is all about.



A for skills that benifits society, aristocracy is ridiculously beneficial if it is built around the right ethos.
Having a social class that turbo boosting the development of entire sections of society/empire is a godsend.
 
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Then we rebel against that as well. Many negative outcomes are possible here, but the civil war will at least actively promote change, whereas giving in to the Patricians' demands will stifle it. I'd rather societal fracture from which we can recover, rather than entrenched elites we cannot dislodge. I'd be much more willing to Distribute Land if anyone had a plan better than "hope we can use an Admin Hero in a Golden Age" for how to claw back the power this will give the Patricians, and all the further privilege they will use it to amass.

Constantly 'rebelling' against something the GM called out as the natural course of society is the sort of self-destructive tendency that would simply kill the quest.
 
Literally click on the quote and see the context in which he replied, he answered two questions with one word answers.

My reading is contrary to your own and you have provided no further evidence to support your interpretation. @Academia Nut could you clarify which interpretation (DL will or might eventually raise Centralization cap) is correct?
 
I have a question that seems to have been left sadly unasked. What if we lose the civil war fracture and/or get invaded and end up with en even worse society, like say one enthusiastically embracing purity and practicing slavery?
Multiple Martial Geniuses on our side and we have control of most of the Cavalry and cities due to the way we made the system. All the neighbors who could take a shot at us either don't want to or are incapable of it.

Overall we have really good chances. And I'd rather not let AN fuck us over with the way he suddenly pulled that part of the trait out his arse with no build up or lead up.

[X] [Merc] Yes
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Secondary] Hunt Troublemakers
[X] [Secondary] Hunt Troublemakers x2
[X] [Secondary] Found Free City Lower Valleyhome
[X] [Secondary] Launch Intrigue Mission (Patricians)
[X] [Secondary] Launch Intrigue Mission (Patricians) x2
[X] [Secondary] Proclaim Glory
[X] [Secondary] More Warships
[X] [Guild Secondary] More Warships
 
So, this is the end of the Ymaryn as we knew it. We're going to be at a much greater risk of civil wars in the future, we may even have our own version of the French Revolution. But something of the Ymaryn will live on forever.

Seriously though, I will be surprised if we haven't had a civil war, or vassal split off in the next 20 updates.

Edit: We did make it much farther than I expected.
 
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Constantly 'rebelling' against something the GM called out as the natural course of society is the sort of self-destructive tendency that would simply kill the quest.

As AN said, the only way the quest ends is if he becomes unable to continue updating it or we literally have zero possible successor states. As for "natural course of society," I'll remind you that slavery has been a similar issue and we've still been doing our utmost to fight against that, with reasonable if imperfect success.
 
This is abominable trait; nobody should be above what king mandates.
Rather hyperbolic, anything if taken to an extreme can be bad...Imagine what would happen if we meet environmental polluters (PSN), or if the people we took in refused to follow our laws (Harmony), or if a dozen different groups tried to seize power (DoP), or if people got it into their heads that we were sinful/ bad/ something and tried to kill themselves in mass (HD).

Striving for excellence is not bad, in fact its the opposite, mediocrity is a life of waste and neglected.
And following the kings madate to the letter? No one is perfect, our leaders both in the game and real life have and will always make mistakes... (Though having a culture which promotes doing better certainly helps prevent stupid or lazy people.)
I thought that was why the America's rebelled (That and being told they could loot and kill the french colonies / Indians as part of the "so called" intolerable acts)
What if we get a mad/ depressed/ glory hungry/ bigoted King ?

Civil war is not the answer, revolts like this lead to nothing by mob justice and death...Needless death, for what? We temporally gain nobles, and spend the next few turns inventing laws and reforms and tests to stem the bad apples before getting a GA bonus with a genius Admin to help do some form of exam / land reform thing / legislation in terms of how votes are done...Or we go murder death kill over Nobles?

Will we have the same reaction when the Merchant princes form? Or when the Mega corps hold our throats? What of the Priests and damnation? Or the terror of Mob justice like examples of Russia and France?
 
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I am not annoyed by DL....however, I am pissed as all fuck by trait evolution.
Arete traitline is a cancer on society; there is healthy individualism, it would have been merging Arete line into Symphony or PiA and making a healthy combo of "Strength in Diversity" or something.
As is, it is explicitly a trait of social stratification and Great Manning bullshit.

If we had an option to take Civil War with outcome of "Arete traitline is purged and will never taint us with its presence", I would gladly take it. There is healthy individualism aka "Society of individuals". Arete line is not it, it is antisocial "Individual above society" cancer.
Looking at our traits, this is the most probable outcome of a civil war:
-Personal Stewards of Nature - Lost or degraded if we lost ANYTHING during the war.

-Greater Justice - Depends on who wins and how they self justify fighting other Ymaryn it may be safe or not.

-Pride in Acceptance - High chance of loss or degradation due to instability making refugee taking selfdestructive.

-Division of Power - High chance of loss. If a powerful faction comes out on top of the civil war rather than a coalition it may be infeasible to maintain Division. Regardless, failing an unsuppressible quest is a hit against it.

-Joyous Symphony - Civil war is inherently disharmonious. High chance of degradation or slide evolution to something like In Service to Order.

-Honorable Death - High chance of evolution.

-Philosopher Kings - Risk of loss/degradation due to potentially lost supporting facilities. In either case, instead of answering difficult questions a civil war inherently quashes dissent by force.

-Purity - High chance of evolution/reinforcement. The losers, whoever they are would be a natural self justification for being corrupt and tainted.

-Swords and Ploughshares - Safe/reinforced.

-Divinely Glorious Elites - Likely to be reinforced because elites tend to win civil wars, as the logistics strongly favor powerful individual units taking charge.

-Lord's Loyalty - Damaged both ways. The superior disregarded the concerns of the subordinate. The subordinate rose up martially.

So unsurprisingly, the outcome of civil war is to be more warlike, less intellectual, more elitist, less accepting.


Anyway, objective now that there's no good option is to at least fail gracefully into the "administrative prefectures" of China style(incidentally, did you know that even in the lands of Chinese dukes, and counts, the justice system is still operated by imperial magistrates?) rather than the "dissolve into foam" strategy that hit Rome.

To achieve that:
-We need everyone happy with the crown during the transition so the Distribute Land change is less about "protect the poor elites from the terrible King" and more about land use efficiency.
--To this end, we require Arts Patronage, Proclaim Glory, Build Theaters to spin doctor. Maximum Legitimacy is important here. As per Alyx's PoV last turn, this is how you set the narrative as "the king is well meaning but the people around him are selfish".
---Bonus, we have a Culture Hero. These actions are currently super effective.

-We need to devise laws to determine what is appropriate distribution and what is not. This is important, since the Patricians can take the action on their own, we need to write the laws such that they are not incentivized or allowed to give themselves the land.
--To this end, any major uses of Distribute Land must be paired with Enforce Justice and Hunt Troublemakers where possible. Noting that next turn we should be able to Kick a megaproject so that we can continue to Enforce Justice if we're still maxed out.
---Bonus, we have an Excellent Administrator. The laws written are expected to be effective at what they do.

-We need to balance the powers of the factions. This maintains Division of Power against the stratification of Divinely Glorious Elites.
--Not much to do here, just keep all the factions happy, not just the elites. Current plan SHOULD satisfy them all at once.
 
Multiple Martial Geniuses on our side and we have control of most of the Cavalry and cities due to the way we made the system. All the neighbors who could take a shot at us either don't want to or are incapable of it.

Overall we have really good chances. And I'd rather not let AN fuck us over with the way he suddenly pulled that part of the trait out his arse with no build up or lead up.

[X] [Merc] Yes
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Secondary] Hunt Troublemakers
[X] [Secondary] Hunt Troublemakers x2
[X] [Secondary] Found Free City Lower Valleyhome
[X] [Secondary] Launch Intrigue Mission (Patricians)
[X] [Secondary] Launch Intrigue Mission (Patricians) x2
[X] [Secondary] Proclaim Glory
[X] [Secondary] More Warships
[X] [Guild Secondary] More Warships
What??
If an told us exactly each trait specifications, then what are the purposes of the game?? Thats like being babysitted for the entire quest
and the quest will become dull and boring
He is the qm and everything is according to his specification.
Well he usually even help us with hints
And yes, he can just pull it out of his arse. This is his quest after all, and only his interpetation is the valid one.
If you dont like his view of things, GET OUT AND MAKE YOUR OWN FUCKING QUEST. I need to remind you that the only path of civilization like quest is path of civilization and nothing else.
 
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