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Paths of Civilization

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[X] [Parl] Cement Production Subsidies (Main Increase Cement Production, Patricians disapprove)
[X] [React] Farm (Sec Expand Econ)
[X] [React] Settle (Sec New Settlement - Internal Reorg)
[X] [React] Contact Harmurri (Sec Diplomatic Mission)
[X] [React] Contact Freehills (Sec Diplomatic Mission)
[X] [PSN] Main Expand Econ (-2 Centralization + Costs)

[X] [Lesson] The importance of skilled commanders at all levels
[X] [Diplo] Begin Boundary Passage Megaproject in its own action track (-12 Diplo)
[X] [Diplo] Gain a Diplo Hero (-15 Diplo)
[X] [Culture] Nothing
[X] [Mystic] Begin Great Library Megaproject in its own action track (-12 Mysticism)
Adhoc vote count started by Horologer on Dec 3, 2017 at 5:17 PM, finished with 454 posts and 60 votes.
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Rakuhn said:
We know that the patricians seizing a king action to distribute land would put them at risk of a guild takeover. It costs 8 strength for them to perform said action.

The patricians currently have 14 strength to the guild's 16 strength. Thus, we can surmise that if any faction ever has doubles the patricians's strength, they will take the patricians' place.
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I was arguing against the idea that the guilds would get enough power between a support guild/suppress Particians to take over. If we did that, the powers would change to:

Patrician: 12
Guild: 18

With the Patrician's power, they could drop the guild to 6, making the Patrcians safe.

The reason dropping the Patricians power by 8 is such a big deal is that it also weakens their ability to reduce the Guild's power by 8, for a total change of 16 power. A support/suppress only has a change of 6 power by the same metric.

tl;dr we can support the guild at the same time we suppress the Patricians perfectly fine.
 
maximillian said:
Mate, iv been arguing for a sun king style monarchy for bloody ages, and the sun king did not antagonise his nobility and seek to destroy them.
He lavished ungodly luxury and honours on them as he slowly dismempowerd them, never touching the rights and privileges they held highest, whilst establishing an entire cultural epicentre that burned a third of annual revenues to keep them happy and swimming in status and prestige in his paradise of the nobility.

Absolutism was achieved by incorporating the aristocracy into the state apparatus, not by expunging it. And the sun king achieved it by spoiling the aristocracy into servitude, creating a high culture so extravagant and ritualised that it was simply unthinkable to refuse the king, him and his Lords became one.

For crying out loud the man was terrified of another noble rebellion like that of his youth, and worked tirelessly to ensure that he never appeared to be threating the institutions of aristocracy, even as he redefined them.

Ofcourse, the nobility has to fucking have lands in order for it to have the bloody necessary wealth to be spent in high culture. The thread ofcourse isn't interested in questions of how to deal with a landed elite, but how to exterminate the concept of land ownership itself.
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When it comes to absolutism, I'd prefer we take the Peter the Great route - take the nobility on head to head, strip them of ancient privileges, and publicly humiliate them in a way that will have people remembering their loss centuries down the line.
 
George said:
Isn't Redshore on the sea? And we don't exactly have big walls on our capital.
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Sure that is a graver problem, but interdiction not so much (I mean, still a problem, but as I've said not existential).

Alratan said:
Our economy is based around importing iron ore and food across the sea,
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???
Our ore trade is mostly with Freehills, our land neighbour.

And look at our eastern extent. We are thoroughly a land empire, with only some colonies across the sea. Txolla, Thunder Horse, Forhuch... all much larger than Greenshore and Tinriver.
 
[X] [Parl] Cement Production Subsidies (Main Increase Cement Production, Patricians disapprove)
[X] [React] Farm (Sec Expand Econ)
[X] [React] Farm (Sec Expand Econ) x2
[X] [React] Contact Harmurri (Sec Diplomatic Mission)
[X] [PSN] Sec Expand Forest (-1 Centralization + Costs)

[X] [Lesson] The bindings between superiors and subordinates
[X] [Diplo] Begin Boundary Passage Megaproject in its own action track (-12 Diplo)
[X] [Culture] Begin Classical Law Megaproject in its own action track (-12 Culture)
[X] [Mystic] Begin Great Library Megaproject in its own action track (-12 Mysticism)
 
Susano said:
???
Our ore trade is mostly with Freehills, our land neighbour.

And look at our eastern extent. We are thoroughly a land empire, with only some colonies across the sea. Txolla, Thunder Horse, Forhuch... all much larger than Greenshore and Tinriver.
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We import iron ore from the Storm Ymaryn over the sea. We export low quality iron to Freehills for reprocessing, once again, over the sea.

That's because the land routes to both are totally crap. For Freehills, we're talking about mountainous regions where you travel by ship along the coast and then up river valleys into the interior.

Txolla, Thunder Horse; Forhurch. They're not really Ymaryn. They're vassals. They can't be. They're just too far away in terms of travel time. Redshore will be probably as close to Tinriver in real terms as it is to Valleyhome.
 
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Citino said:
I was arguing against the idea that the guilds would get enough power between a support guild/suppress Particians to take over. If we did that, the powers would change to:

Patrician: 12
Guild: 18

With the Patrician's power, they could drop the guild to 6, making the Patrcians safe.

The reason dropping the Patricians power by 8 is such a big deal is that it also weakens their ability to reduce the Guild's power by 8, for a total change of 16 power. A support/suppress only has a change of 6 power by the same metric.

tl;dr we can support the guild at the same time we suppress the Patricians perfectly fine.
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I think there's narrative value to a simultaneous suppress/support that will make a coup roll possible. I'm not convinced that they can get their power switch effect fast enough to stop a potential coup.
 
Alratan said:
We export low quality iron to Freehills for reprocessing over the sea.
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Citation for that?

Anyway, it occurs to me that blocking the ore routes would be a blessing for us, because then our ore mines wouldn't have to compete with (obviously much cheaper) slave labour ore anymore. It would make our mines competitive again.
 
[X] [React] Celebrate (Sec Improve Annual Festival)

We're going to be fine on Economy. It's more important to get Stability up as we need to suppress the Patricians and deal with the continuing gilded age. AN has said that Stability WILL increase from doing the festival.
 
Susano said:
Citation for that?

Anyway, it occurs to me that blocking the ore routes would be a blessing for us, because then our ore mines wouldn't have to compete with (obviously much cheaper) slave labour ore anymore. It would make our mines competitive again.
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It'd be nice for our mines, yes, but bad for our economy. We'd probably have disrupted trade malus, which would mean we'd start having to take wealth generating actions more often as we go to negative wealth income.

So no, we really don't want sea trade disrupted.
 
[X] [Parl] Dryad Housing Act (Main Expand Forest, Priests +1 Faction Power, Yeoman approve, Patricians disapprove)

[X] [React] Farm (Sec Expand Econ)
[X] [React] Exercise (Sec Build Gymnasium)
[X] [React] Judge (Sec Enforce Justice)
[X] [React] Praise the Gods (Sec Build Temple)
[X] [React] Contact Harmurri (Sec Diplomatic Mission)


[X] [PSN] Main Expand Econ (-2 Centralization + Costs)
[X] [PSN] Main Plant Cash Crops - Textiles (-2 Centralization + Costs)
[X] [PSN] Main Expand Forest (-2 Centralization + Costs)


[X] [Lesson] The bindings between superiors and subordinates
[X] [Lesson] The bonds between warriors
[X] [Lesson] The glory of a good death

[X] [Diplo] Gain a Diplo Genius (-20 Diplo)
[X] [Diplo] Alter Subordinate Management (-10 Diplo, -1 Diplo per landed subordinate/turn)
[X] [Diplo] Begin Boundary Passage Megaproject in its own action track (-12 Diplo)
[X] [Diplo] Materials Tech (-12 Tech)


[X] [Culture] Upgrade a random value (-18 Culture)
[X] [Culture] Material Tech (-12 Tech)

[X] [Mystic] Gain a new Spiritual Value slot (-15 Mysticism)
[X] [Mystic] Materials Tech (-12 Tech)
Adhoc vote count started by sidestory on Dec 3, 2017 at 5:36 PM, finished with 463 posts and 62 votes.
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Andres110 said:
[X] [React] Celebrate (Sec Improve Annual Festival)

We're going to be fine on Economy. It's more important to get Stability up as we need to suppress the Patricians and deal with the continuing gilded age. AN has said that Stability WILL increase from doing the festival.
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Spending more econ, which this does, will stop our cities from coming online and reduce how many player actions we have. 1 econ doesn't sound like a lot, but we're just barely managing it as is. We're taking 3x Expand Econ to gain player actions, not to fix our econ.
 
Well, I see that people are going all in on GA bonuses we can't afford. Next term is very likely going to be a total nightmare.

Remember that we'll take and pay for action on each on each Megaproject we chose this turn, so we're going to start with very low score in them next turn. For example, we'll have eight Mysticsm and eleven culture. We won't be getting Tech overflow for a long time; and we're very dependent on it.

Susano said:
Citation for that?

Anyway, it occurs to me that blocking the ore routes would be a blessing for us, because then our ore mines wouldn't have to compete with (obviously much cheaper) slave labour ore anymore. It would make our mines competitive again.
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Look in the 'A New Time for Heroes' update.

On ore, what makes you think that the Yllthon Sea being closed wouldn't cut off our own iron mines, in places like Hatvalley, which are also dependent on sea transport.

Beyond that, it would destroy our market. We import iron ore and export iron.
 
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Can somebody explain to me the reason beyond people going for a cultural hero, instead of advancing our values ?
I mean given our action spread I see a Culture Hero more akin to a waste of Culture since due our culture overflow, we aren't inclined to take culture actions to begin with
 
sidestory said:
Can somebody explain to me the reason beyond people going for a cultural hero, instead of advancing our values ?
I mean given our action spread I see a Culture Hero more akin to a waste of Culture since due our culture overflow, we aren't inclined to take culture actions to begin with
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Cause while our mechanical culture is good, our narrative culture sucks ass right now.

We have a couple of theaters, some musicians, and some decent pottery. Other than that, we've got nothing really artistic going on.

Culture hero is pretty damned necessary at this point, just to give us something to work with.
 
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8bitBob said:
Spending more econ, which this does, will stop our cities from coming online and reduce how many player actions we have. 1 econ doesn't sound like a lot, but we're just barely managing it as is. We're taking 3x Expand Econ to gain player actions, not to fix our econ.
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We're at -16 EE per turn. Doing so much Expand Economy has a serious risk of causing overcrowding.
 
Andres110 said:
We're at -16 EE per turn. Doing so much Expand Economy has a serious risk of causing overcrowding.
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This is only an issue if we don't spend any econ next turn, which is not going to happen. There were some explanations earlier in the thread if you're interested. Long story short is that this is not especially a concern.
 
Citino said:
Cause while our mechanical culture is good, our narrative culture sucks ass right now.

We have a couple of theaters, some musicians, and some decent pottery. Other than that, we've got nothing really artistic going on.

Culture hero us pretty damned necessary at this point, just to give us something to work with.
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The thing even a hero requires actions on our part, which we both know we ain't gonna take unless we are forced, which we aren't due to the overflow
So the way I see it we take him, then don't take any culture actions because between dealing with factions, the nomads, the hamurri& freehills and whatever other fires might occur, people won't be willing to waste their precious few actions that they have left and then he dies and all we will have archieved is that we have wasted culture

If you really want to advance our culture then you would either go for a genius, who require much less action input from us to advance us if any at all with our innovation rolls or you go for the safe and sound cultural advancement in form of trait evolution
 
[X] [Parl] Dryad Housing Act (Main Expand Forest, Priests +1 Faction Power, Yeoman approve, Patricians disapprove)
[X] [Parl] Cement Production Subsidies (Main Increase Cement Production, Patricians disapprove)

Distributing land is simply not acceptable. It is a thinly veiled attempt for the patrician families to gain more power or physically establish themselves. We lost enough power with this government change that giving away more is just not doable. Building up some of the rivals to the patricians and working with the Yeomen and the priests is a decent alternative.

[X] [Diplo] Boost all subordinate loyalty (-15 Diplo)

Subordinate loyalty has been an ongoing issue, especially out west. This is a comparatively cheap option to pull them all in closer, versus support or influence that would cost far more for far less of a combined loyalty boost.

[X] [Culture] Begin Classical Law Megaproject in its own action track (-12 Culture)
[X] [Mystic] Begin Great Library Megaproject in its own action track (-12 Mysticism)

We need both of these projects desperately. The library will likely boost our tech or mysticism refunds, which are vital for ensuring we don't bankrupt ourselves, and the Classical Law is just a vital update to keep everything running smoothly.

[X] [PSN] Main Expand Econ (-2 Centralization + Costs)

Edit: Apparently the baby boom isn't paying out this turn, so we do actually need that PSN expand econ.

[X] [React] Farm (Sec Expand Econ)

[X] [Lesson] The importance of skilled commanders at all levels

This is a method of improving the army overall. Crucially, this will blunt stupidity from destroying armies. It will come at the cost of blunting the effectiveness of skilled overall commanders and a possible increase in crime when we send levies home.

Edit:
[X] [Diplo] Nothing

Approval voting this because boundary passage straight up cannot win.
 
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pbluekan said:
[X] [Diplo] Boost all subordinate loyalty (-15 Diplo)

Subordinate loyalty has been an ongoing issue, especially out west. This is a comparatively cheap option to pull them all in closer, versus support or influence that would cost far more for far less of a combined loyalty boost.
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Literally all subordinates are at L5/5, except those three in the west, which are at a still comfortable 3/5. So those 15 Diplo would go towards only three subordinates, which seems a bit of a waste to me...
 
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