Paths of Civilization

Broccoliccoli · Dec 3, 2017

Citino said:
is DL the Hill we really want to die on?

No, but...

maximillian said:
What the hell has private property ever done to ye?!?!

...do you really want him to win?

Okay, jokes aside:
-AN has just said we will never truly win this battle until the modern times.
-AN has just implied a societal collapse would probably change our system to that private stuff anyway.
-AN has just strongly applied that chances are good a Heroic King would eventually just distribute some land anyway.

Lets just get over with it. We currently have a powerful King and the law is called fair right in the title, so we probably wont get a better deal anytime soon.
I want to do fun stuff, like exploring this settings world, building awesome shit and planting forests. Punching our awesome ruling class in the face every few turns doesnt fun. It sounds like self-mutilation to be quite honest.

[X] [Parl] Fair Land Allocation Act (Main Distribute Land, Patricians and Yeomen approve)

Umi-san · Dec 3, 2017

Academia Nut said:
You've basically conceded the entire Mediterranean to them, so yes. Yes they are.

When did we do that, again? When we didn't invade them or...?

Karugus · Dec 3, 2017

bluefur87 said:
And this would take an advancement in law to properly apply.

Seriously people, you don't have to take both the Law and Library, but please do take the Law if you only want one.

To be frank, I'd rather have a culture genius/hero capable of realizing the tension and being part of writing the law than I would just putting it on a track.

Getting it one turn faster versus being far more comprehensive?

maximillian · Dec 3, 2017

bluefur87 said:
To add on to what I just said, do keep in mind that AN said one of the ways we've avoided several civil wars in the past is by avoiding private land ownership. If we cross the line where people own land and not the state, we're in for some serious problems as they use their power over controlling land against us.

That's because the action is a powder keg. It can easily screw us over and the only time it comes up is when factions want to do it in extremes. We also likely don't have a sophisticated enough government to actually properly manage it at this point, and by the time we do, I can easily see the demand for it going by the wayside.

Mate, a bloody neolithic civ has the needed know how to manage privitisation, it's the whole purpose of it! : the state need not bother!

Karugus · Dec 3, 2017

Academia Nut said:
You've basically conceded the entire Mediterranean to them, so yes. Yes they are.

Oh god. King of the Hill.

Well, that's another fucking crisis we really, really didn't need.

bluefur87 · Dec 3, 2017

Karugus said:
To be frank, I'd rather have a culture genius/hero capable of realizing the tension and being part of writing the law than I would just putting it on a track.

Getting it one turn faster versus being far more comprehensive?

...
If I believed we could actually do that, I'd be up for it.

Glassware · Dec 3, 2017

Academia Nut said:
You've basically conceded the entire Mediterranean to them, so yes. Yes they are.

Well on the bright side they're probably not gonna have the easiest time holding together. On the negative side, Freehills almost certainly needs backup now.

Umi-san said:
When did we do that, again? When we didn't invade them or...?

Hard to say. We can't exactly project power that far, but we also haven't taken that many Sailing Missions through the straits (that was Tinriver's job, and we turned Tinriver into a colony, which was perhaps not the best move).

highs2lows · Dec 3, 2017

Citino said:
Yeah, I do have to ask, with the knowledge that DL isn't going away any time soon, is DL the Hill we really want to die on?

Academia Nut · Dec 3, 2017

Umi-san said:
When did we do that, again? When we didn't invade them or...?

By never going out into the Mediterranean while shipping out iron equipment. You have a seafaring Iron Age culture unleashed upon Bronze Age tribes at best. There was literally no one in the way to stop them once they started going west.

Alratan · Dec 3, 2017

maximillian said:
Noble rebellions and gentry machinations is a better example. And historically, the way empires dealt with them was :
1- give in, or butter them up to avoid the unholy hell that would be unleashed if not.
2- gather whatever soldiers are not rebelling or beg a foreign monarch to come save your ass, all the while praying that you still have a kingdom at the end of it.

Absolutism worked pretty well. You just bankrupt the aristocracy.

Just ask the Sun King.

We have a very unusual ruling class. Their influence over the military is fading, as the chariots become obsolete, and their replacements, the cavalry, are controlled by the priesthood.

Glassware · Dec 3, 2017

Academia Nut said:
By never going out into the Mediterranean while shipping out iron equipment. You have a seafaring Iron Age culture unleashed upon Bronze Age tribes at best. There was literally no one in the way to stop them once they started going west.

Much like the ironwielding nomads we unleashed upon Not!China.

Abby Normal · Dec 3, 2017

@Academia Nut on this answer you gave:

Academia Nut said:
Will update, its Provinces/2 + 2 = 11, so 6 to the king's policies, 5 to the f

I'd actually been referring to the assignment of actions/policies based on strength; i.e. why patricians get 2, guilds get none, etc. I tried using the original rules you listed:

Academia Nut said:
1.) Factions have gain control over an action based on their current faction strength, going from high power to low power and then cycling back around
2.) In the case of a tie, the higher class faction goes first
3.) If a faction has access to an action from another source, they are demoted down the list once for each extra action they have.
4.) If a faction has negative power, they lose a pick from the first cycle
5.) Factions with 10 or greater power get an extra cycle for each full 10 points of power they have

And couldn't replicate your results.

Academia Nut said:
Yes.

Gaining power automatically improves mood unless there is something else going on.

Nope, didn't roll well enough.

Is it only Pure Gold that has to roll to check if it applies, or is it possible for us not to have megaproject tracks or materials tech available for an innovation?

Academia Nut said:
12 progress for a level 2.

Most of the benefits of a level 1, but no extra actions (except to the patricians because of their faction action system) and they do not decrease Max centralization.

Academia Nut said:
They never penalize min. centralization, they in fact improve it, so not sure what exactly you mean.

EDIT: Wrong thing. Yes, they do give the tech refund.

...Well it sounds like Gov Palaces 2 are exactly what we need =D

Umi-san said:
When did we do that, again? When we didn't invade them or...?

Presumably when we spread iron tech (and after a bit, outright spread cheap iron tools) to our neighbors and they were able to conquer the shit out of their neighbors with it?

8bitBob · Dec 3, 2017

Academia Nut said:
By never going out into the Mediterranean while shipping out iron equipment. You have a seafaring Iron Age culture unleashed upon Bronze Age tribes at best. There was literally no one in the way to stop them once they started going west.

We're like an incubating bed for powerful, aggressive assholes due to leaking tech like a sieve.

And it's everyone's problem but ours.

Alratan · Dec 3, 2017

I can see why the Traders threatened Civil War to control the Trelli Straits.

Still, seems like we might get another chance to take them.

It was an enormous wasted opportunity though. The Mediterranean basin is an incredibly powerful region for a state to hold, as the sea serves as a giant super highway.

Particularly as we're stuck with a form of government that makes it impossible to expand like historical civilisations did.

If we go up against an alt-Rome with our tech, we'll just lose.

Broccoliccoli · Dec 3, 2017

Academia Nut said:
You've basically conceded the entire Mediterranean to them, so yes. Yes they are.

Yay, Neo-Trelli got really swole.

It is really awesome the next scary big boss will be a leftover of a leftover of the Hats. They died like a bunch of scrubs but their culture lives on strong.

Ancient Scholar · Dec 3, 2017

Academia Nut said:
You've basically conceded the entire Mediterranean to them, so yes. Yes they are.

It's our fault? I don't see how we could have expanded over there without breaking something.

Glassware · Dec 3, 2017

Karugus said:
Oh god. King of the Hill.

Well, that's another fucking crisis we really, really didn't need.

I don't think that applies unless we get border contact with them. So, happily, Freehills is in the way. That friendship is still paying dividends!

Wiadi · Dec 3, 2017

Citino said:
Yeah, I do have to ask, with the knowledge that DL isn't going away any time soon, is DL the Hill we really want to die on?

Short answer? Yes. Long answer? Yeeeeeeees.

Anyway, voting on contentious issues:

[X] [Diplo] Nothing
[X] [Culture] Gain a Cultural Hero (-15 Culture)

The rest seem pretty locked in and none of the results are obviously objectionable.

Rakuhn · Dec 3, 2017

Sounds like we are going to learn about what it's like to be a subordinate soon.

Glassware · Dec 3, 2017

WeaponX1023 said:
It's our fault? I don't see how we could have expanded over there without breaking something.

We could have not developed iron thousands of years early. That's pretty much all I can think of.

Candesce · Dec 3, 2017

Academia Nut said:
There was literally no one in the way to stop them once they started going west.

Hmm. I wonder how coherent and stable they are.

HeWhoAdds · Dec 3, 2017

Wait, the Saffron Islanders were enslaved by the Trelli, right? When would we have had an opportunity to interfere with them since Trelli collapsed? We've basically just been putting out fires or getting invaded since then.

Glassware · Dec 3, 2017

Candesce said:
Hmm. I wonder how coherent and stable they are.

They're Hathatyn descendants, trying to hold together a Mediterranean empire. It strikes me as only a matter of time before their colonies revolt and then continue the spread off into the rest of Europe and Africa.

highs2lows · Dec 3, 2017

Karugus said:
Oh god. King of the Hill.

Well, that's another fucking crisis we really, really didn't need.

Welp time to start building walls and watchtowers after this law/ library chain gets sorted out.

Candesce · Dec 3, 2017

Glassware said:
It strikes me as only a matter of time before their colonies revolt and then continue the spread off into the rest of Europe and Africa.

Well, at the moment their empire might be being held together at least in part by the need to source their iron from us.

But any region that puts together an ironworks seems likely to form a breakaway state.

Paths of Civilization

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