[X] [Main] Restore Order
[X] [Secondary] Switch Policy - Offensive
[X] [Secondary] Palace Annex - Grand Hall
[X] [Secondary] Dam
[X] [Secondary] Dam x2
[X] [Secondary] Hunt Troublemakers
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Guild] Build Mills
[X] [Guild] Build Mills x2
[X] [Guild Secondary] Survey Lands

@PrimalShadow 's plan.

[X] [Marriage] Internally from a patrician family
[X] [Marriage] From one of the Forhuch tribes to secure their loyalty

@maximillian made a valid point that the SY are not especially worse than our other neighbours, but an alliance with them still makes it likely we'll get dragged into some foolish conflict.
 
That plan has us sitting at 16 Econ after we lose econ to SY vampirism, so only 11 away from Econ cap; we should be able to make it back to max with just the PSN.
Sorry, I added clarification afterwards. We need to overflow to reduce EE to keep our cities, and also to fix our tech score (that'll be killed repairing our wealth score)
. It, in no way, risks our Econ any more than simply taking war missions does.
Martial damage can damage Econ thanks to Swords and Plowshares. Dependent upon our Econ strength. Not sure on the Order of Operations there. 7 war missions is thus likely more dangerous than 3.
 
@maximillian made a valid point that the SY are not especially worse than our other neighbours, but an alliance with them still makes it likely we'll get dragged into some foolish conflict.
What foolish conflict, by the way? Last I heard, they finished fighting some internal rebels and are not actually in conflict with anybody right now. They will probably continue their conquest west, but why would they call us for help, beyond maybe Banners?
 
Then switch to offensive policy. Yes, war is freaking expensive to wage, but we have to wage it right now because we have an extremist neighbor that we keep on refusing to put down.

This is the cost of letting the HK stay as is. We have to go to war every time they see an opportunity to screw with us.

Ok? They are not a problem. Let them fight with Khemetri and Freehills due to their conquest of Khem colony, we will remove them from Lowlands.
 
Order of Operations, at most, only matters with Levy.

Offensive Policy will do nothing, but take war missions. Except it will take more war missions than we can reasonably expect to do on our own. It, in no way, risks our Econ any more than simply taking war missions does.

My argument is not 'go for Levy'. My argument is, 'there is no benefit to switching to megaproject support unless you are trying to sabotage the war'. If you feel Levy is too dangerous, switch to Offensive policy.

Because we can just switch to megaproject support when we aren't at war.

Because war means we kinda have to suck it up and accept we need to spend actions on a war.

The counter argument involves giving our Genius General exactly not what he asked for by not only lowering levies, but committing 1/2 to the current winning vote of 1/3 the amount of Martial we could.

It is giving him something like 1/10th or 1/15th of the fighting force he feels he needs as opposed to 1/5th of it.

So yes, I see a problem with ignoring our genius general as much as possible during a war. Because we are at war.
*is confused as to why you are jumping down my throat when, at this point, I am not advocating for anything*

*waves hand* Thanks for the answer. From what I recall Sivantic is voting for keeping the Mass Levy going. I don't know if you want it, you seem to be advocating for Offensive pretty strongly. If you do want Mass Levy to continue, why are you confident it won't kill/nearly kill us? (At this point I am just trying to be informative and present constructive discussion, because I don't give a flying rat on how this turns out beyond "not dying")
 
What foolish conflict, by the way? Last I heard, they finished fighting some internal rebels and are not actually in conflict with anybody right now. They will probably continue their conquest west, but why would they call us for help, beyond maybe Banners?
Thanks to the games, they can already ask us, but we have the option to decline. We may or may not take a stability hit if we decline it. Alliance would make the expectation for our help even more so.
 
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Some (halfassed) analysis:
-Trade table
--Common Pottery seems to be still competing with the Khemetri for dominance, but we don't have direct contact to confirm it beyond the pots coming by sea. One of these days Tinriver will send an expedition in that direction to check.
--Forhuch's ghost is still Leading in salt and trading in Copper, Bronze and Iron. Spoopy.
---Copper may become Dominant once we add the former-Forhuch mines to our production. Pretty sure theres a tin mine in those mountains too, since the Mountain Horse had their own bronze donkey years ago.

-Minions
--Eastern Marches love us and the war damage means they won't have any ideas for a while.
--Western Colonies are still okay with us, but their dependency is not going to improve any time soon.
--Sourthern Vassals love us for doing our duty, but Txolla's Dependency is getting low in a bad way.
--Forhuch seems to be taken partly intact, given their Dependency. Loyalty will be a problem there.
--Amber Road's Dependency is liable to be a future headache. No solution for that really.
--Banners all regenerated a point of effectiveness, except the Blood Rain...who got the shit kicked out of them and lost a point instead. Again.

Random tech musings:
-Our entertainment technology is still terrible. The height of our entertainment are plays and young idiots getting their balls crushed by bucking horses.
-I wonder if our metalworking skill have gotten to the point where we can use lead inlays or fillings to adjust the weight balance of our weapons. The stuff is cheap and we've got a bunch we aren't really using for much.

Ranged
Composite Bows
Light crossbows
Ballistae

Massed fire
Slings
Pila
-Oh hi thar. We have true ballistas now! At this point in history we should be using them as dart or stone/lead shot throwers. This will be very important when we actually build warships because our war catamarans become an actual threat rather than just recon elements. An early torsion ballista is not going to be sinking any hulls, but it CAN shatter masts(admittedly with great difficulty in aiming when firing from a fast platform), shred sails, and horribly maul rowers wherever a shot hits.

However, said ballistas aren't actually effective on city walls and gates(hence why Ranged rather than Siege), they are effective at sniping barbicans and wall defenders so that rams can move up to the wall unopposed. Well, so are our spamming levies with crossbows shooting over the wall, but the ballista can be used without crashing our economy.

As a final point, ballistas mounted on city walls makes siege REALLY hard, because they can mount and launch bigger rocks than mobile platforms, allowing a number well placed wall ballista to pound through covered rams(the counter to this is siege towers).

Theory
Shield wall
Tactical Phases
Supply caravans
Formal lieutenants
-Supply caravans were already discussed previously, but this is to reiterate, the formalization of military logistics. Prior to this, military supply involved mainly living off the land, or difficult to protect wagons traveling in a strung out format(because the intuitive way to avoid raiders burning your supply train is to use irregular, scattered wagons so they can't destroy as much each time, while this innovation packs it into large, well protected caravans which eat a big chunk of the supply as they travel)

-Formal Lieutenants were also discussed, but the big difference here is that by delegating on site tactics for an engagement to a subordinate leader, you get fine control without micromanaging to death. Only really came up with truly large armies where you needed commanders on the thousand man scale while the general worked the ten thousand man scale.

-Its odd that Urban Levies/conscripts aren't listed in the Warrior techs @Academia Nut ?

Only, pretty much as soon as they got into Forhuch territory the local tribes all went "Wow, you killed the king so hard, you're totally in charge now".
Sort of a benefit of fighting former nomads. This is how Fortharmin's father unified them to begin with, so they were perfectly happy to follow a Hero on that basis.

Next generation might be difficult if we don't secure ties

The fact that those left behind were only marginally loyal - the least loyal had been thrown against the People early on, while the most loyal were the ones who got to come along for loot - also went a long way towards securing things. The fact that Alyxunmyn had excellent control over his troops and he made sure to peel off some of the more trustworthy warriors to station them as garrisons in key places made convincing the locals that they didn't need to resist and it would be a bad idea if they tried very easy.
And he dumped a shitload of Core Ymaryn people in as a Create March action, ensuring some level of cultural unity with our core. Clever.

The entire 'conquest' was over in about a year, during which time the king and governors confirmed Alyunmyn as the heir, both for his achievements and to minimize the possibility of either the Forhuch that had joined up getting pissy or the priest-acknowledged Avatar of the Spirits of War deciding he wanted to take the crown more directly.
We crowned him champion of Khorne? :p

From there Alyxunmyn took the troops north and west from three different directions to deal with the nomad tribes that had been harassing them. That campaign had gone nowhere near as well as the lowlands campaign, although that was primarily because the lowlands campaign had been a spectacular success, and secondarily because the northern nomads were much less willing to maintain contact with the People. After a few years of back and forth and losses on both sides, it became entirely obvious to the nomads that the People both were not going to fold as they were well lead, numerous, experienced, and no longer distracted by the Forhuch. Deciding that they had had more than enough time to raid and gain honour and continuing to engage with the armies of the People was foolish, the nomads simply packed up and left for the east.
Hopefully they go and stay go, but Nomads...well, we're going to need more pony.

Refugees streaming out had revealed that the Highlanders had conquered everything along the Great River and in fact had gone all the way to the western bank of the Urri River, with the king and his armies being cut down in a major battle that had only further energized the Highlanders. While resistance had been reorganized in the eastern part of their territories, despair ran thick through the Harmurri, and many worried that if pressured further then collapse was imminent.
As expected, the Hamurri are still alive, but had lost something like 2/3 of their territory AND their King. They must have rolled amazingly badly because their terrain is hard to conquer!

The cities were empty, with only Redshore really retaining its enormous urban flavour, although even that was diminished. The effort of the levies and the guilds to meet the demands of war had placed an enormous pressure upon the People, hollowing them out in ways. And yet there were traders and patricians who retained and had even grown much of their wealth and influence, leading to new things but also resentment. So much had been sacrificed, but where was their sacrifice?
So more or less war exhaustion, as happens when you draw so heavily from the urban population for war.

Especially since the king of the Storm Ymaryn had sent word that he had a few lovely daughters who were of marriageable age. Wink wink.

He had actually literally gone 'wink wink' in the message, adding the special characters for that to the end of his sentence. The scribes suggested that maybe there had been something of a change in meaning.
Emoticons...also I just remembered this guy is also a Hero on their side. Just that they got stalemated because everyone in that direction has a Hero and he's getting nothing done.

[] [Marriage] Internally from a patrician family
The Status Quo option. Mild reinforcement of Purity(too mild to really matter here), but the big danger is a strong King married to a politically powerful wife would forge a permanent ruling dynasty.

[] [Marriage] From one of the Forhuch tribes to secure their loyalty
The Vassal option. Note that the Forhuch are only with us because of our Genius King, and if they retain their Nomad cultural values, they're liable to start making noise once he dies. A marriage there would give them ties of kinship to the core, which appeals to Nomad Family values even after his death.
If we're lucky we can arrange another wave of marriages between their leaders and ours to bind their ruling class to ours(and broaden that practice to our vassals in general. But we need the river control for that to be feasible.

[] [Marriage] From the Storm Ymaryn to gain an alliance
The Outsider option. Keeping in mind that the SY have:
-A Hero King
-Been fighting a stalemated war with Freehills for multiple turns
-Expansionistic
-Slavery

Overall it gives us a powerful ally, but the Storm Ymaryn are more likely to be at war than we are, so it's distinctly to their advantage.

Found Colony - When a province gets too distant, sometimes it is best to grant it additional autonomy so that they can get down to the business of working the land and gathering resources without needing to talk to the king about every little thing. Current Target: Spirit Channel, Amber Road
*F: Convert Amber Road
Oh and a bad idea here. We'd never retain control.
Integrate Colony - The colony of Txolla can be integrated into the People more fully, transitioning from a Colony to a province
*S: -6 Diplomacy, gain Econ and Martial from integrating Colony
*M: Same as above, completes at mid-turn
Word of AN that this has 5 provinces. We need to do this sometime soon, but currently we can't afford to pop our cities without pissing EVERYTHING off.

Terrify - You've killed cities, walls will not keep your enemies safe
*S: -3 Diplo, can force minors to become vassals or integrate, can cause major civilizations to lose Stability
Special: Not applicable to nomads, efficiency greatly improved by performing a War Mission against the target the same turn
Warning: Crit fails can cause backlash, losing Stability
I wish this worked better on the Highlanders...

Warning! All Free Cities but Redshore will disband if EE not below 20 by the end of turn, returning Econ and EE but needing to be reformed at a later date.
Oh and we finally find the threshold for keeping free cities. Good to know!
The Yeomen were deliberately trying to pop the cities.

Yeomen (3 {9})- Power: Adds faction power to secondary Martial Objective: Have 40 Sustainable Forest within 3 turns. Success: +1 Sustainable Forest. Failure: -5 Wealth
On the plus side they are happy and giving a decent quest...well if you didn't realize that Forestry was LTE positive and makes it even harder to avoid citypop.

Astrological Prediction: Harmony in nature follows harmony in man
Prediction says we want lots of Stability to get good weather. On it!
 
[X] [Main] Restore Order
[X] [Secondary] Switch Policy - Offensive
[X] [Secondary] Palace Annex - Grand Hall
[X] [Secondary] Dam
[X] [Secondary] Dam x2
[X] [Secondary] Hunt Troublemakers
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Guild] Build Mills
[X] [Guild] Build Mills x2
[X] [Guild Secondary] Survey Lands
[X] [Marriage] From one of the Forhuch tribes to secure their loyalty
 
On a side note, I feel that if we do attack HK with Levy, we will not break them by the mid-turn. Their whole schtick is being fortified, and genius alone can't tumble walls.
But Ballistae can :V

Seriously, consider some of the best ways to actually deal with sieges as the besiegers:

sappers, siege ramps, counter walls, rams, and more! All of which the Ymaryn are pretty good at, and benefit from having a ton of troops, especially well led and organized troops with a general who understands logistics. The HK might have fortifications as their specialty- but the Ymaryn have torn down greater walls with fewer men and less technology.

So yeah- I'm confident we can utterly ruin the HK core in a turn.
 
Sorry, I added clarification afterwards. We need to overflow to reduce EE to keep our cities, and also to fix our tech score (that'll be killed repairing our wealth score)
Our Tech score will be fine on its own. We have 26 points of income/refunds for our five non-econ stats, and we are only spending -18(+2) on Mills, -3(+1) on the Dam, and -2 on the Grand Hall - so we actually come out ahead, and with a couple of points of extra overflow to Econ besides.

Of course, this is before the GA innovations; after them, if we spend Tech we will obviously be down Tech, and recovery may be limited if we spent other stuff as well.

~~~

As for overflowing to get our cities back up... that is a good point. We are at 4+7+30=41 LTE right now, and going to go up another 8 to 49 once after mills. That leaves us at 12 EE when our Econ is maxed, which is still a bit too much. So yes, I suppose using our Reaction on this would be warranted - though to be fair, such a use would also refill our coffers after GA spending.

Of course, that is assuming we don't get an EE innovation, which would of course change matters.
 
*is confused as to why you are jumping down my throat when, at this point, I am not advocating for anything*

*waves hand* Thanks for the answer. From what I recall Sivantic is voting for keeping the Mass Levy going. I don't know if you want it, you seem to be advocating for Offensive pretty strongly. If you do want Mass Levy to continue, why are you confident it won't kill/nearly kill us? (At this point I am just trying to be informative and present constructive discussion, because I don't give a flying rat on how this turns out beyond "not dying")
My current entire argument centers around people not wanting to commit to a serious war.

I'm okay with whatever wins as long as that is done. My stance was very much Levy or offensive, please no megaproject support, doing that during a war is pointless.

I'm sorry if you thought otherwise, but megaproject policy is a very bad idea.
 
Vote Tally : Original - Paths of Civilization | Page 5325 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 133117-133536]
##### NetTally 1.9.9
Task: Marriage
[30][Marriage] From one of the Forhuch tribes to secure their loyalty
[14][Marriage] From the Storm Ymaryn to gain an alliance
[2][Marriage] Internally from a patrician family

——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Main
[29][Main] Restore Order
[14][Main] Great Dam
[5][Main] War Mission - Highlanders
[2][Main] Enforce Justice
[2][Main] Integrate Colony - Txolla
[1][Main] Hunt Troublemakers

——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Guild Secondary
[26][Guild Secondary] Survey Lands
[20][Guild Secondary] Build Mills
[2][Guild Secondary] Build Gymnasium

——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Guild
[46][Guild] Build Mills
[36][Guild] Build Mills x2
[12][Guild] Build Gymnasium
[2][Guild] Build Gymnasium x2

——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Secondary
[49][Secondary] Palace Annex - Grand Hall
[32][Secondary] Enforce Justice
[25][Secondary] War Mission - Highlanders
[24][Secondary] Switch Policy - Megaproject Support
[23][Secondary] War Mission - Highlanders x2
[18][Secondary] Restore Order
[16][Secondary] Restore Order x2
[16][Secondary] War Mission - Highlanders x3
[14][Secondary] Integrate Colony - Txolla
[13][Secondary] Retraining
[13][Secondary] Retraining x2
[12][Secondary] Survey Land
[9][Secondary] Dam
[9][Secondary] Dam x2
[7][Secondary] Integrate Colony - Txolla x2
[6][Secondary] Hunt Troublemakers
[6][Secondary] Switch Policy - Offensive
[1][Secondary] Expand Economy
[1][Secondary] Switch Policy - Balanced
[1][Secondary] Sailing Mission
[1][Secondary] Library - Redshore
[1][Secondary] --
[1][Secondary] War Mission - Highlanders x4
Total No. of Voters: 60


Tally wally wally!
 
Thanks to the games, they can already ask us, but we have the option to decline. We may or may not take a stability hit if we decline it. Alliance would make the expectation for our help even more so.
Only if they need it. And really, the only scenario I can imagine where they would need anything besides Banners is a nomad attack, and we would be happy to help them there regardless. Though, they probably would use one or two banners semi-permanently.
 
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Only if they need it. And really, the only scenario I can imagine where they would need anything besides Banners is a nomad attack, and we would be happy to help them there regardless. Though, they probably would use one or two banners semi-permanently.
Stronger ties may also give our western colonies more incentive to swap.
 
> better chance
> literally almost starving, only one FC remains, and people are explicitly

Yeah, no. This is not how a good chance looks like.
Levy is traumatizing enough to only be used against existential threat like nomads or peer power. HK are neither.
The cities aren't going to pop from people starving. They're going to pop because there's lots of Econ Expansion - available useful land. It means the countryside is full of attractive opportunities. All we need is to Expand Econ a few times - next turn, give the incomparable military genius just one more turn - and people will come flooding back.

It's true that every plan will spend all 4 of our Econ. Can't avoid that, no matter what policy we use. We have to build the Dam, or it will trigger devastating Stability loss. We have to build the annex, because the patricians will hijack actions to make it happen. So that's all 4 Econ - regardless of what else we do. All we can control is how much Econ we recover later. @Sivantic's plan recovers 14 + overflow, I believe, which should raise it to something like 25. That's enough to easily survive the turn.

We have a military genius like never before seen, we have levies already in the field, we have a really genuinely important CB, we will never get a better chance to stop the HK shenanigans for good.
 
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I'm okay with whatever wins as long as that is done. My stance was very much Levy or offensive, please no megaproject support, doing that during a war is pointless.

I'm sorry if you thought otherwise, but megaproject policy is a very bad idea
Don't forget that the government upgrade is going to change everything. This war is not a majorly important one- we want to save the Harmurri and push the HK out of the lowlands, but it's not like we die if we somehow can't. And considering we've still got our mercs and our subordinates and the Harmurri themselves will be helping... That's quite different from the "fight or die" we're used to. Getting to a good overall position for next turn is pretty important.
 
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My preference for the case where we don't commit heavily against the HK is a case where we commit just enough to keep the Harmurri alive and then put in absolutely everything next turn.

Has there been any discussion on the possibility of allying with Storm Ymaryn and asking for their help in the war?
 
[X] [Main] Great Dam
[X] [Secondary] Annex - Great Hall
[X] [Secondary] Retraining
[X] [Secondary] Retraining x2
[X] [Secondary] Restore Order
[X] [Secondary] Restore Order x2
[X] [Secondary] Survey Land
[X] [Guild] Build Mills
[X] [Guild] Build Mills x2
[X] [Guild Secondary] Build Mills

[X] [Marriage] From the Storm Ymaryn to gain an alliance

Huh? I thought the Freeshits were fighting the tinshits not our slaving cousins?
 
We could use Storm Ymaryn military support against the Highlanders. With a marriage/alliance we could have their army join ours against the Highlanders.
With the Highlanders crippled, we would have time to integrate and recover before the next war.
We cannot. Been there, done that. You can only launch allied war missions if they are physically able to reach the enemy.

As the Storm Ymaryn have no sealift capacity, as the Highlanders have no Black Sea holdings, lets list out which of the SY and Ymaryn conflicts that we can interfere in:
-Northwestern Steppes - Ymaryn unable to reach.
-Freehills - Yes to both.
-Tin Tribes - Yes to both. Minor power.
-Nomads(West) - Yes to both. But currently empty.
-Nomads(East) - Storm Ymaryn unable to reach.
-Highland Kingdom - Storm Ymaryn unable to reach.
-Harmurri - Storm Ymaryn unable to reach.
-Khemetri Colonies - Storm Ymaryn unable to reach.

Is it clear now what they want the alliance for?
They want to fight Freehills, but its literally impossible for them to damage Freehills without Ymaryn sealift.

What are you talking about? He literally said he wanted to deal with the Highlanders now rather than kicking down the road. Also the HK can utilize their strength far faster than we can due to their slavery, private land and type of government.
There is an important chunk here being missed: @Academia Nut
How many turns do we expect out of Alyxunmyn barring misadventure?
What does Alyxunmyn think about the possibility of spending this turn restoring our economy and pushing the HK out of their Hamurri holdings, then flipping the Levy switch next main turn?
 
[X] [Main] Great Dam
[X] [Secondary] Palace Annex - Grand Hall
[X] [Secondary] Integrate Colony - Txolla
[X] [Secondary] Integrate Colony - Txolla x2
[X] [Secondary] Restore Order
[X] [Secondary] Restore Order x2
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Guild] Build Mills
[X] [Guild] Build Mills x2
[X] [Guild Secondary] Build Mills
[X] [Marriage] From the Storm Ymaryn to gain an alliance
this will kill the mountaineers and not die in the process.
 
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