This hurts us if we want to turn back on our cities. (Or even if we just get unlucky) I really want those cities back, they're kinda important and very useful. Plus getting the free social slot.
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
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- Original
And you don't see the problem with this?!?!
You are relying on the odds being in favor to justify not sending the full brunt of the army that we could without levy. In a situation that is mostly unknown. When we could switch to megaproject policy next turn if we succeed hard enough this turn.
Yes I see a problem with relying on a complete lack of military intelligence to justify undercommiting to the war.
The best we can hope for is a development of Siege Tech gained from Mills to tear through the HK defenses like paper. I'd prefer to see it also taken as a secondary also even more so, but. *Looks at tally.* ugh.
So currently, I would prefer one of these plans:
They are pretty different, though; and the current MP option is different yet. Not sure how we can manage voting without it getting potentially screwy...
- Location
- Staring into the void
[X] [Main] Restore Order
[X] [Secondary] Switch Policy - Offensive
[X] [Secondary] Palace Annex - Grand Hall
[X] [Secondary] Dam
[X] [Secondary] Dam x2
[X] [Secondary] Hunt Troublemakers
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Guild] Build Mills
[X] [Guild] Build Mills x2
[X] [Guild Secondary] Survey Lands
[X] [Secondary] Switch Policy - Offensive
[X] [Secondary] Palace Annex - Grand Hall
[X] [Secondary] Dam
[X] [Secondary] Dam x2
[X] [Secondary] Hunt Troublemakers
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Guild] Build Mills
[X] [Guild] Build Mills x2
[X] [Guild Secondary] Survey Lands
[X] [Main] Great Dam
[X] [Secondary] Annex - Great Hall
[X] [Secondary] Retraining
[X] [Secondary] Retraining x2
[X] [Secondary] Restore Order
[X] [Secondary] Restore Order x2
[X] [Secondary] Survey Land
[X] [Guild] Build Mills
[X] [Guild] Build Mills x2
[X] [Guild Secondary] Build Mills
[X] [Marriage] From one of the Forhuch tribes to secure their loyalty
OK looking at the current plans we risk starving and breaking either way. May as well kick the Highlanders in the gut.
[X] [Secondary] Annex - Great Hall
[X] [Secondary] Retraining
[X] [Secondary] Retraining x2
[X] [Secondary] Restore Order
[X] [Secondary] Restore Order x2
[X] [Secondary] Survey Land
[X] [Guild] Build Mills
[X] [Guild] Build Mills x2
[X] [Guild Secondary] Build Mills
[X] [Marriage] From one of the Forhuch tribes to secure their loyalty
OK looking at the current plans we risk starving and breaking either way. May as well kick the Highlanders in the gut.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
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I think part of the reasoning to get rid of mass levy and go to like offensive(which I can't recall if sivantic is doing) is that it eats econ in the main turn to mid turn transition which will starve us. And looking at the numbers it will almost outright kill us since it does 3 Econ to Martial normally.
Or is that not gonna happen, because I am not sure?
Maybe it's time for plan voting.
Not allowed by AN in this quest.
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- Austria
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
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I think its more accurate to say "If you guys can stick to plan voting, okay then" but its been a long long long ass time since I remember the last time it came up.
Huh, really? I don't see anything wrong with it, as long as playerbase themselves decide to go for it. I mean, how is it different from proxy voting?
Not really. The HK are doing a very unsustainable advance, and we'll be backed by the Harmurri and Txolla at the very least. 3 war missions is still quite a bit. Sure it isn't the 7 that Offensive is capable of, but it's still a lot.
The plans that turn off the Mass Levy to Megaproject Support all overflow econ via province actions. They go down to 0 econ, but turning off Mass Levy removes the Econ damage it does.
It also puts us in an amazing position for next turn, whereas the Mass levy plans virtually guarantee major problems next turn.
No
Do you think risking starvation is acceptable?
We are risking starvation either way. All plans spend more than 4 econ.
Em, no they don't? Really, none of the plans spend more than 4 econ, it's just levy risks random loses. Though, maybe we will lose econ to SY due to stab loss, that'll trip us up. But I don't remember how timing works on that one.
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All the plans I've seen spend exactly 4 econ. Mass Levy comes with extra econ damage and econ->martial transformations though, whereas the other policies do not.
The ruling was before my time; I just remember the first time I tried making a plan in this quest multiple people told me that plan voting wasn't allowed.
It's not gonna happen.
The attempt at justification is 'but we want expand economy'. When we're taking two main Build Mills action and have a +11 Econ income.
Expand Economy isn't needed this turn. Period.
Especially when you consider we have to do war missions and can thus not commit those actions to raising stability, which is far, far more crucial than Econ at the moment.
So no, this is a horrible plan no matter how I approach it.
Especially since the winning vote only has two war missions, but I accept that most are not arguing for that. It's still a thing that is happening last I checked.
So, like before the summer? I am not sure if it's really applicable now.The ruling was before my time; I just remember the first time I tried making a plan in this quest multiple people told me that plan voting wasn't allowed.
...okay. I've given it some thought, and I prefer the Offensive Policy plan to the Restoration Policy plan. Part of it is @notgreat's excellent point about Restoration taking EJs which drive us into Yellow centralization and make reforming cities a problem; part of it is wanting more War Missions to fully defend our allies and do so quickly and thoroughly, and part of it is just pragmatics over which I think is more plausable under the current voting climate.
So here is my vote:
[X] [Main] Restore Order
[X] [Secondary] Switch Policy - Offensive
[X] [Secondary] Palace Annex - Grand Hall
[X] [Secondary] Dam
[X] [Secondary] Dam x2
[X] [Secondary] Hunt Troublemakers
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Guild] Build Mills
[X] [Guild] Build Mills x2
[X] [Guild Secondary] Survey Lands
For those of you who are trying to push through staying on levy, please consider joining me. Staying on levy has a chance to deal extra econ damage this turn due to Econ conversion and disease, which of course would be catastrophic if it happens before we get income. I don't think that is worth the risk, and furthermore I don't think the thread as a whole is willing to accept that risk. So please consider this option as something which still hits the Highlanders with massive force, but does so at less implosion risk, and is more likely to be accepted by other voters.
So here is my vote:
[X] [Main] Restore Order
[X] [Secondary] Switch Policy - Offensive
[X] [Secondary] Palace Annex - Grand Hall
[X] [Secondary] Dam
[X] [Secondary] Dam x2
[X] [Secondary] Hunt Troublemakers
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Guild] Build Mills
[X] [Guild] Build Mills x2
[X] [Guild Secondary] Survey Lands
For those of you who are trying to push through staying on levy, please consider joining me. Staying on levy has a chance to deal extra econ damage this turn due to Econ conversion and disease, which of course would be catastrophic if it happens before we get income. I don't think that is worth the risk, and furthermore I don't think the thread as a whole is willing to accept that risk. So please consider this option as something which still hits the Highlanders with massive force, but does so at less implosion risk, and is more likely to be accepted by other voters.
You're thinking of the hiatus attempts. Plan voting is how the votes are counted, and AN has gone on the record saying that he counts individual votes. If that means a broken plan goes through, we face the consequences.
We lost almost 20 econ last turn. I want to be able to get my warships, cement, dam, and urban poor quest next turn. Expand Econ lets us max our stats and actually take the GA advancements rather than needing to hoard them all to prevent starvation.
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BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
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Ummm... order of operations are still a thing? And "but we want expand economy" is not what I am going for or even care about in this question. All I care about is when does Mass Levy's expenses come in? Or are you voting for something that goes to offensive(I haven't quite kept track)?
As far as I understand the Mass Levy, being an "expense" comes first. Thus it will be -2 Econ from Annex, -2 Econ from Dam, -3 Econ from Mass Levy, before all our incomes, unless we pass the admin roll(and as heir Alyx can't apply his full admin to it, plus distraction by war).
I disagree with you, but do not think your vote will kill us so I'd be willing to to do it. It locks in our [PSN] and likely even our [React] to Expand Economy, and we'll need to switch off of Offensive next turn in all likelihood, but yeah, that plan isn't going to kill us so it's better than the Mass Levy ones at least.
It does kill our non-redshore cities though. I don't like that. (If we don't do the +24 Econ during the midturn that is)
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- Location
- Staring into the void
[X] [Main] Restore Order
[X] [Secondary] Switch Policy - Offensive
[X] [Secondary] Palace Annex - Grand Hall
[X] [Secondary] Dam
[X] [Secondary] Dam x2
[X] [Secondary] Hunt Troublemakers
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Guild] Build Mills
[X] [Guild] Build Mills x2
[X] [Guild Secondary] Survey Lands
[X] [Marriage] From one of the Forhuch tribes to secure their loyalty
[X] [Secondary] Switch Policy - Offensive
[X] [Secondary] Palace Annex - Grand Hall
[X] [Secondary] Dam
[X] [Secondary] Dam x2
[X] [Secondary] Hunt Troublemakers
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Guild] Build Mills
[X] [Guild] Build Mills x2
[X] [Guild Secondary] Survey Lands
[X] [Marriage] From one of the Forhuch tribes to secure their loyalty
That plan has us sitting at 16 Econ after we lose econ to SY vampirism, so only 11 away from Econ cap; we should be able to make it back to max with just the PSN.
No
Do you think risking starvation is acceptable?
Then switch to offensive policy. Yes, war is freaking expensive to wage, but we have to wage it right now because we have an extremist neighbor that we keep on refusing to put down.
This is the cost of letting the HK stay as is. We have to go to war every time they see an opportunity to screw with us.
Order of Operations, at most, only matters with Levy.
Offensive Policy will do nothing, but take war missions. Except it will take more war missions than we can reasonably expect to do on our own. It, in no way, risks our Econ any more than simply taking war missions does.
My argument is not 'go for Levy'. My argument is, 'there is no benefit to switching to megaproject support unless you are trying to sabotage the war'. If you feel Levy is too dangerous, switch to Offensive policy.
Because we can just switch to megaproject support when we aren't at war.
Because war means we kinda have to suck it up and accept we need to spend actions on a war.
The counter argument involves giving our Genius General exactly not what he asked for by not only lowering levies, but committing 1/2 to the current winning vote of 1/3 the amount of Martial we could.
It is giving him something like 1/10th or 1/15th of the fighting force he feels he needs as opposed to 1/5th of it.
So yes, I see a problem with ignoring our genius general as much as possible during a war. Because we are at war.