Paths of Civilization

BungieONI · Nov 24, 2017

veekie said:
[X] [Main] Great Dam
[X] [Secondary] Annex - Great Hall
[X] [Secondary] Integrate Colony - Txolla
[X] [Secondary] Integrate Colony - Txolla x2
[X] [Secondary] Restore Order
[X] [Secondary] Restore Order x2
[X] [Secondary] Survey Land
[X] [Guild] Build Mills
[X] [Guild] Build Mills x2
[X] [Guild Secondary] Build Mills
[X] [Marriage] From one of the Forhuch tribes to secure their loyalty

This takes us to:

Econ Expansion = -4 Negative income so 26.
Then Txolla integration gives us +20 Expansion for 46.

~~5 Econ spent, so we starve a little.~~ Wait no NVM, we are fine there in econ. Gain +11 Econ from Mills. Gain 13 from Txolla. Gain 4 from income. Overflow by 0.
We spend 22 wealth and thus hit 3 Wealth and Guild Panic Starts, though its not a very large concern.

@Glassware, as to why I think we need to do it(integrating Txolla), I think we need it so that once we turn off mass levy that we aren't trying to force the levies who were Urban Poor, back into their Urban Poor status(which will piss them off royally when they have the chance right there to be farmers). Put them in Txolla and then we can make them happy by making them rich.

E: whoops, I mistook the survey. Its fine.

Glassware · Nov 24, 2017

BungieONI said:
@Glassware, as to why I think we need to do it(integrating Txolla), I think we need it so that once we turn off mass levy that we aren't trying to force the levies who were Urban Poor, back into their Urban Poor status(which will piss them off royally when they have the chance right there to be farmers). Put them in Txolla and then we can make them happy by making them rich.

You have no support for this belief stat-wise or in terms of AN quotes though.

SyntheticSynthia · Nov 24, 2017

[X] [Main] Restore Order
[X] [Secondary] Switch Policy - Megaproject Support
[X] [Secondary] Palace Annex - Grand Hall
[X] [Secondary] War Mission - Highlanders
[X] [Secondary] War Mission - Highlanders x2
[X] [Secondary] Integrate Colony - Txolla
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Guild] Build Mills
[X] [Guild] Build Gymnasium
[X] [Guild Secondary] Survey Lands

[X] [Marriage] From one of the Forhuch tribes to secure their loyalty

Citino · Nov 24, 2017

Glassware said:
No. We lose all our cities on that plan.

I mean, they don't exactly get destroyed. All the infrastructure is still there, we just have to start activating them again.

And the HK are too big of a strategic long term problem not to deal with if we can.

Carrnage · Nov 24, 2017

[X] [Main] Restore Order
[X] [Secondary] Switch Policy - Megaproject Support
[X] [Secondary] Palace Annex - Grand Hall
[X] [Secondary] War Mission - Highlanders
[X] [Secondary] War Mission - Highlanders x2
[X] [Secondary] Integrate Colony - Txolla
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Guild] Build Mills
[X] [Guild] Build Gymnasium
[X] [Guild Secondary] Survey Lands

[X] [Marriage] From one of the Forhuch tribes to secure their loyalty

Malevolo · Nov 24, 2017

DragonParadox said:
Guys both the SY and Forhuch have a tradition of hereditary rule. I think going with either of them will give us heredity too.

Patrician government upgrade + Alyx - the god of war - Marrying a patrician will do that too. It's better to marry the nomad under the government upgrade because that cancels each other.

The patricians won't let a nomad son be a hereditary king.

RulerOfNothing · Nov 24, 2017

[X] [Main] Great Dam
[X] [Secondary] Retraining
[X] [Secondary] Retraining x2
[X] [Secondary] Sailing Mission
[X] [Secondary] Palace Annex - Great Hall
[X] [Secondary] Library - Redshore
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Guild] Build Mills
[X] [Guild] Build Mills x2
[X] [Guild Secondary] Build Mills

Does this plan work? I am also not sure now what to do with the marriage so I guess I will continue to think on that.

PrimalShadow · Nov 24, 2017

Why the hell are we integrating Txolla?

The original reason that we were considering Txolla integration was that:

It would give us Econ necessary for a Levy Policy,
It would let us succeed on the Yeomen quest

We are turning off Levies, and the Yeomen quest is finished. So... why is Txolla still in the plan?
Especially considering that we are going to be building Mills, which increase our EE above where it is already?

notgreat · Nov 24, 2017

@BungieONI
Your plan keeps our current free cities, but the integrate Txolla means we don't get any cities to free for the Urban Poor quest.
It also only does 2 war missions, which is barely enough to keep the HK contained. We'll want more than that to guarantee kicking them out of the lowlands in a timely manner.

Kiba · Nov 24, 2017

[X] [Main] Restore Order
[X] [Secondary] Switch Policy - Megaproject Support
[X] [Secondary] Palace Annex - Grand Hall
[X] [Secondary] War Mission - Highlanders
[X] [Secondary] War Mission - Highlanders x2
[X] [Secondary] Integrate Colony - Txolla
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Guild] Build Mills
[X] [Guild] Build Mills
[X] [Guild Secondary] Survey Lands

Why are the guilds allowed to take gyms? It's not a guild action is it?

Redium · Nov 24, 2017

Sivantic said:
I have planned out a way to avoid starving and stay on the Levies we need to stop them.

BungieONI said:
Granted you fail the Urban Poor quest really really hard and I want that social slot but Mneh its not a huge issue.

It is absolutely a problem because there's no reason at all to fail the Urban Poor quest. We don't need to Integrate in order to make sure we get enough Econ for Mid-Turn. Our Stats are set to overflow into it and we should be able to take Expand Econ as a PSN or React action during the Mid-Turn to save all of our Free Cities. Your plan gives up on the Urban Poor quest for no reason. It's giving up a very valuable reward pointlessly.

What is the logic behind Integrate - Txolla? I literally cannot see it.

veekie said:
Cash crop spam next.

Two of our Free Cities would be gone by next turn according to the turn update. It means we would fail the Urban Poor quest unless we're willing to support them 3 times or more. We can't get rid of 50 EE easily (it's at least 6 Main actions to touch 20 and we'd need to go a lot lower) and then to demarcate 4 Free Cities is 4 Secondary actions.

OliWhail said:
Does... does this work? Do we keep our cities and also keep Mass Levy on to send war missions and also not starve?

No. If we Integrate at all, all of our cities will disappear. We cannot integrate Txolla if we want to keep any of our cities.

BungieONI said:
@Glassware, as to why I think we need to do it(integrating Txolla), I think we need it so that once we turn off mass levy that we aren't trying to force the levies who were Urban Poor, back into their Urban Poor status(which will piss them off royally when they have the chance right there to be farmers). Put them in Txolla and then we can make them happy by making them rich.

Instead you destroy them as a political force. That's not going to go over better. Urban dwellers have an immensely different culture from rural regions and often take pride in being Urban.

Besides, do you think that the Urban Poor are going to become Yeoman? Not a chance in Hell, they're going to become worse off. Urban Poor will make shitty farmers. The people who are already farmers are likely to become Yeoman while the Urban Poor are assigned as rural poor and itinerant workers. If anything, this makes their lives worse because they no longer have their culture, their homes, their livelihoods, their communities, the grain dole, anything.

kilopi505 · Nov 24, 2017

[X] [Marriage] From the Storm Ymaryn to gain an alliance

[X] [Main] War Mission - Highlanders
[X] [Secondary] Change Policy - Megaproject Support
[X] [Secondary] Palace Annex - Grand Hall
[X] [Secondary] Restore Order
[X] [Secondary] Restore Order x2
[X] [Secondary] War Mission - Highlanders
[X] [Secondary] War Mission - Highlanders x2
[X] [Guild] Build Mills
[X] [Guild] Build Gymnasium
[X] [Guild Secondary] Survey Lands

SeptimusMagisto · Nov 24, 2017

Can someone point me to a good plan that switches the Levy off? I do not want to get entangled with the Highlanders anymore than necessary. I would have liked the option to take the mountain passes, but that's not worth starvation or losing our cities. Let's just sweep them back under the rug.

VoidZero · Nov 24, 2017

Tetsurou said:
Figured, but it would also be a good starting point to reintegrate them back into the People proper.

The Ymaryn that was part of western Ymaryn that was conquered and absorbed into Storm Wolf? Who was of nomadic origin that also ate Metal Workers? A long shot at best i think.

Carrnage · Nov 24, 2017

Tetsurou said:
Figured, but it would also be a good starting point to reintegrate them back into the People proper.

Yes because what we really need is more land.

Citino · Nov 24, 2017

SeptimusMagisto said:
Can someone point me to a good plan that switches the Levy off? I do not want to get entangled with the Highlanders anymore than necessary. I would have liked the option to take the mountain passes, but that's not worth starvation or losing our cities. Let's just sweep them back under the rug.

Ironically, we are going to border on starvation no matter what, war or no war.

We have 4 Econ required to be committed this turn, and 4 Econ in the bank.

This isn't going to get fun.

BungieONI · Nov 24, 2017

Glassware said:
You have no support for this belief stat-wise or in terms of AN quotes though.

I'm basing it off of what the class system is based on in our current era, which is that the farmers are really really rich. I don't have any support other than this though which is true. If it turns out that this is not the case then ah well.

Tetsurou · Nov 24, 2017

VoidZero said:
The Ymaryn that was part of western Ymaryn that was conquered and absorbed into Storm Wolf? Who was of nomadic origin that also ate Metal Workers? A long shot at best i think.

Long term plan to be sure, but with a Genius Martial King its more than doable.

SpeckofStardust · Nov 24, 2017

Personally the most moral action would be to attack the highlanders and save our ONLY friend.

Of course knowing SV they will forget to be moral when it suits them

And then argue that they still are.

Glassware · Nov 24, 2017

BungieONI said:
I'm basing it off of what the class system is based on in our current era, which is that the farmers are really really rich. I don't have any support other than this though which is true. If it turns out that this is not the case then ah well.

Indeed you don't. I think others have provided good arguments for why this is a really stupid thing to do.

[X] [Main] War Mission - Highlanders
[X] [Secondary] Switch Policy - Megaproject Support
[X] [Secondary] Palace Annex - Grand Hall
[X] [Secondary] War Mission - Highlanders
[X] [Secondary] War Mission - Highlanders x2
[X] [Secondary] War Mission - Highlanders x3
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Guild] Build Mills
[X] [Guild] Build Gymnasium
[X] [Guild Secondary] Survey Lands
[X][Marriage] From one of the Forhuch tribes to secure their loyalty

Vote that doesn't integrate Txolla for no reason beyond "let's destroy the Urban Poor

"

VoidZero · Nov 24, 2017

Citino said:
It works by having the provinces do war missions.

I dummy, forgot about the provinces actions.

Citino said:
Ironically, we are going to border on starvation no matter what, war or no war.
We have 4 Econ required to be commuted this turn, and 4 Econ in the bank.
This isn't going to get fun.

No doing a war now means more focus on immediate internal problems, that means leaving HK as a slightly more distant problem and HARM to die of course.

Sivantic · Nov 24, 2017

Andres110 said:
ALL HAIL THE VEEKIEWAGON except Survey Land

Andres110 said:
@veekie, can I convince you to swap out Survey Land for Enforce Justice? It doesn't cost stats, it improves Stability, and we have plenty of Centralisation tolerance. The extra Centralisation may actually give bonuses to our actions considering the competence of our king.

B-but it is my wagon ;_;

Sivantic said:
Right then

[X] [Main] Great Dam
[X] [Secondary] Annex - Great Hall
[X] [Secondary] Integrate Colony - Txolla
[X] [Secondary] Integrate Colony - Txolla x2
[X] [Secondary] Restore Order
[X] [Secondary] Restore Order x2
[X] [Secondary] Survey Land
[X] [Guild] Build Mills
[X] [Guild] Build Mills x2
[X] [Guild Secondary] Build Mills

Stats
Economy 4/27 (+7) [+5-0]
Wealth 25/25 [+8]

Dam costs 2 Wealth and Economy

Economy 2
Wealth 23

Annex costs 2 Econ

Economy 0
Wealth 23

Restore Order, Survey, nor Integration costs econ or wealth

Mills though,

Economy 11
Wealth 1

Then our income cashes in

Economy 22
Wealth 9

This is an expensive plan yes, but it gives us all the econ we need while still leaving us on Levies to defeat the Highlanders.

It is possible.

We have 4 Econ right now.

See? ._.

OliWhail said:
Huh, this looks appealing, does the math all check out? And why 2x integration - do we need them integrated by midturn more than we need extra Econ?

PrimalShadow said:
Why the hell are we integrating Txolla?

The original reason that we were considering Txolla integration was that:

It would give us Econ necessary for a Levy Policy,

It would let us succeed on the Yeomen quest

We are turning off Levies, and the Yeomen quest is finished. So... why is Txolla still in the plan?
Especially considering that we are going to be building Mills, which increase our EE above where it is already?

Redium said:
It is absolutely a problem because there's no reason at all to fail the Urban Poor quest. We don't need to Integrate in order to make sure we get enough Econ for Mid-Turn. Our Stats are set to overflow into it and we should be able to take Expand Econ as a PSN or React action during the Mid-Turn to save all of our Free Cities. Your plan gives up on the Urban Poor quest for no reason. It's giving up a very valuable reward pointlessly.

What is the logic behind Integrate - Txolla? I literally cannot see it.

Two of our Free Cities would be gone by next turn according to the turn update. It means we would fail the Urban Poor quest unless we're willing to support them 3 times or more. We can't get rid of 50 EE easily (it's at least 6 Main actions to touch 20 and we'd need to go a lot lower) and then to demarcate 4 Free Cities is 4 Secondary actions.

No. If we Integrate at all, all of our cities will disappear. We cannot integrate Txolla if we want to keep any of our cities.

Instead you destroy them as a political force. That's not going to go over better. Urban dwellers have an immensely different culture from rural regions and often take pride in being Urban.

Besides, do you think that the Urban Poor are going to become Yeoman? Not a chance in Hell, they're going to become worse off. Urban Poor will make shitty farmers. The people who are already farmers are likely to become Yeoman while the Urban Poor are assigned as rural poor and itinerant workers. If anything, this makes their lives worse because they no longer have their culture, their homes, their livelihoods, their communities, the grain dole, anything.

People had narrative reasons for wanting it before so I added it in.

If it really bothers you, I can Switch it to another Main War Mission or Secondary War Mission and a Secondary Enforce Justice.

Look at my plan I quoted above. Even without it, we have plenty of Econ. So just calm down and talk to me.

notgreat · Nov 24, 2017

SeptimusMagisto said:
Can someone point me to a good plan that switches the Levy off? I do not want to get entangled with the Highlanders anymore than necessary. I would have liked the option to take the mountain passes, but that's not worth starvation or losing our cities. Let's just sweep them back under the rug.

My plan does that, and someone just voted for it.

kilopi505 said:
[X] [Marriage] From the Storm Ymaryn to gain an alliance

[X] [Main] War Mission - Highlanders
[X] [Secondary] Change Policy - Megaproject Support
[X] [Secondary] Palace Annex - Grand Hall
[X] [Secondary] Restore Order
[X] [Secondary] Restore Order x2
[X] [Secondary] War Mission - Highlanders
[X] [Secondary] War Mission - Highlanders x2
[X] [Guild] Build Mills
[X] [Guild] Build Gymnasium
[X] [Guild Secondary] Survey Lands

Gym and Mills are mostly equivalent here, so you can swap them out as desired. It turns back on at least Valleyhome and Blackmouth, possibly more depending on province actions. Less Mills makes it more likely we get more cities. It drops us to 0 econ, but then Megaproject Support rebounds it so hard we overflow.

BungieONI · Nov 24, 2017

Vote Tally : Original - Paths of Civilization | Page 5325 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 133117-133323]
##### NetTally 1.9.9
Task: Marriage
[16][Marriage] From one of the Forhuch tribes to secure their loyalty
[9][Marriage] From the Storm Ymaryn to gain an alliance

——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Main
[13][Main] Great Dam
[11][Main] Restore Order
[5][Main] War Mission - Highlanders
[2][Main] Integrate Colony - Txolla
[1][Main] Enforce Justice
[1][Main] Hunt Troublemakers

——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Guild Secondary
[16][Guild Secondary] Survey Lands
[14][Guild Secondary] Build Mills

——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Guild
[30][Guild] Build Mills
[17][Guild] Build Mills x2
[12][Guild] Build Gymnasium

——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Secondary
[21][Secondary] Integrate Colony - Txolla
[20][Secondary] Palace Annex - Grand Hall
[18][Secondary] Restore Order
[17][Secondary] War Mission - Highlanders
[16][Secondary] Restore Order x2
[16][Secondary] Switch Policy - Megaproject Support
[15][Secondary] War Mission - Highlanders x2
[15][Secondary] Enforce Justice
[11][Secondary] Annex - Great Hall
[11][Secondary] Integrate Colony - Txolla x2
[10][Secondary] Survey Land
[1][Secondary] Hunt Troublemakers
[1][Secondary] Dam
[1][Secondary] Switch Policy - Offense
[1][Secondary] Expand Economy
[1][Secondary] Switch Policy - Balanced
[1][Secondary] Retraining
[1][Secondary] Dam x2
[1][Secondary] Retraining x2
[1][Secondary] Sailing Mission
[1][Secondary] Library - Redshore
[1][Secondary] War Mission - Highlanders x3
Total No. of Voters: 36

Tally wally!

BungieONI · Nov 24, 2017

Glassware said:
"let's destroy the Urban Poor "

I don't appreciate the straw man, especially since under my context of reasoning, it actually uplifts them to the next social class.

*shrug*

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