We do not actually have to deal with patrician spite. DoP gives us one free fail.
We do. Word of AN. They're trying to make us fail the Trader quest so the Traders can create a Power 8 Spitequest with extra spite and we won't have the buffer from Division of Power to ignore it with..

That's a good point.
Also, another thing.
What about supporting Priests some more? They are only one of 'high-class' factions who oppose slavery. Temple is great maybe one-turn another Temple somewhere else? And let passives/active Policy finish the started Temple?
Priests are confused at present. However if we fulfill their temple quest they should both have power and offer better quests next.
Sorta like this.


Narratively we follow-up on previous decision by hunting down the slavery-minded. Combines with EJ. However, provinces can take it, so whatever.

[X][Main] Great Dam
[X][Secondary] Upgrade Temple - Horse Valley
[X][Secondary] Build Temple - Sunrise Grove
[X][Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X][Secondary] Suppress Faction - Patricians
[X][Secondary] Invite to Games - Forhuch
[X][Secondary] Support Faction - Traders
[X][Guild] Efficient Charcoal Kilns
[X][Guild] Plant Cash Crops - Textiles
[X][Guild Secondary] Salterns

So, idea: Suppress Patricians + Support Traders + EJ + Temple for Priests = ideally, we want to punish slavers (EJ+Suppress), elevate anti-slavery faction (Priests) and, hopefully, split Traders from slavers.
Please don't torpedo the government reform we need.
@Academia Nut , is it possible to make faction more anti-slavery?
And are traders especially invested (and how) in continuing the lax enforcement of half-exile rules (our brand of slavery basically)?
Thats what we just did. Thats why the upper classes are pretty fucking pissed.

See, you can make Traders ambivalent on slavery once you show them how much money paying the poor can generate. They will fight you the whole way, but this is the only way to develop Economic Theory beyond the intuitive "I got money, they don't" zero sum game.

If we're lucky the priests extend their ecological study experience to study the economy as if it was an ecossytem.

I seem to recall us having big problems with them a while back. Not even counting the fact that they're pretty directly responsible for the current crisis.
The problem was not with the priests, the problem was with our military not being sufficient to enforce the Gods' will!

Unless you are thinking of a different time the priests caused trouble, either way I am certain I can pin the blame on something else. If nothing else, there's always the latent influence of Arxyn...
Priests always support the prevailing social values and resist foreign values(until they become internal values, then the priests will support it). Always. They're great if you want status quo. Not great if you want change.

The basic thing is that the priests are always fickle as a faction. So take slavery. What are the issues from the priests' perspective?
-Purity - Foreigners being inherently more corrupt because they don't practice good hygiene, do not live in harmony with each other and the spirits. We must fix that, and the half exile system tells us how this can be achieved.

-Tradition - Slavery may or may not be inherently corrupt, because the half-exiles do the same things, and that obviously doesn't corrupt people, so if we do slavery like we do half-exiling, we can obtain the benefits without the spiritual costs.

-Justice - Double standards are unjust and corrupt. Thus slavery should either be accepted as being as just as the half exiles or the half exiles abuse rooted out.

-Justice + Purity - If slavery is corrupt, then by using half exiles like slaves, we are contaminating our entire society's spirits. We must protect everyone and punish those responsible.

-Justice + Purity - If labor is cleansing for half exiles, then it is cleansing for all the impure. It would be unjust to deny purification for the foreign.

Turns out you can use the same social value to argue both ways eh?
 
Does anybody disagree with my assessment that Ironwork is the single most effective mean of lowering the cost of production to something that is more sane?

We should aim for that once we have the sustainable forest margin to actually do it, but the tech cost will be a bitch.

But the wealth cost is even more of a bitch.

And Ironwork required a lot of infrastructure to support.
 
Okay, so, assuming we manage to get Support Traders high enough that the Patricians can't hijack it...what other ways would they have to fuck with the quest?

Hmm. @Academia Nut can the Patricians hijack an action to take Suppress Traders, and if so, what would happen if they did that while we took Support Traders in a different action slot?
 
Okay, so, assuming we manage to get Support Traders high enough that the Patricians can't hijack it...what other ways would they have to fuck with the quest?

Hmm. @Academia Nut can the Patricians hijack an action to take Suppress Traders, and if so, what would happen if they did that while we took Support Traders in a different action slot?

That would seem to be logically contradictory. The patricians are already supporting the traders as a faction, for them to take a suppress action at the same time would be pulling in two diametrically opposing directions.
 
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Does anybody disagree with my assessment that Ironwork is the single most effective mean of lowering the cost of production to something that is more sane?

We should aim for that once we have the sustainable forest margin to actually do it, but the tech cost will be a bitch.

But the wealth cost is even more of a bitch.

And Ironwork required a lot of infrastructure to support.

Did not really think about it somehow, but yes, it's definitely going to help in labouring...although whether it makes it Wealth-cheaper or more Econ-producing or just builds bigger (see Dam with iron for reinforcement!) is a question.
 
Did not really think about it somehow, but yes, it's definitely going to help in labouring...although whether it makes it Wealth-cheaper or more Econ-producing or just builds bigger (see Dam with iron for reinforcement!) is a question.

Primary cause of ironwork is that it freed up labor by increasing the efficiency of agricultural production, increasing the supply of labor, lowering the cost of production. Those laborers come into the city looking for work, which increases urbanization.

Increased urbanization naturally means bigger markets, so we benefit from bigger tax revenue.

Hopefully, by improving the availability of iron, rural cottage industries will be available, which might ironically start increasing labor requirement, but more goods will be produced in rural area, which has the added advantage of keeping yeomen busy.

Cheaper iron will also open up new classes of goods that just weren't possible before.

I don't think there's really any other actions or projects we could do that has greater impact on the cost of things in our society.
 
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Does anybody disagree with my assessment that Ironwork is the single most effective mean of lowering the cost of production to something that is more sane?

We should aim for that once we have the sustainable forest margin to actually do it, but the tech cost will be a bitch.

But the wealth cost is even more of a bitch.

And Ironwork required a lot of infrastructure to support.
Yes. Going to Ironworks III will make things a lot worse before it gets better, because it'd drive a general labor shortage problem before the benefits cascade out.

Fastest solution is markets to grease the economics. A market in every city would allow more efficient use of middle class artisan production and lower class spending power, which ultimately makes more profit than the free labor can save.
The manpower exists. Using it efficiently is not being done at all
Okay, so, assuming we manage to get Support Traders high enough that the Patricians can't hijack it...what other ways would they have to fuck with the quest?

Hmm. @Academia Nut can the Patricians hijack an action to take Suppress Traders, and if so, what would happen if they did that while we took Support Traders in a different action slot?
Take out an income producing action.
 
I disagree.

Ironworks increases the cost of stuff by adding Tech cost. Generating Tech is hard and relies on a lot of wealth.

Ignore mechanics, acquire narrative.
Narratively, more Ironworks = cheaper iron = more iron tools = more productive manual labour wrt anything to do with land or building things or nailing things or equipping army, you name it.

Plus a lot of our actions produce Culture which overflows into Tech, so it is not that hard to restore.

Primary cause of ironwork is that it freed up labor by increasing the efficiency of agricultural production, increasing the supply of labor, lowering the cost of production. Those laborers come into the city looking for work, which increases urbanization.

Increased urbanization naturally means bigger markets, so we benefit from bigger tax revenue.

Hopefully, by improving the availability of iron, rural cottage industries will be available, which might ironically start increasing labor requirement, but more goods will be produced in rural area, which has the added advantage of keeping yeomen busy.

Cheaper iron will also open up new classes of goods that just weren't possible before.

I don't think there's really any other actions or projects we could do that has greater impact on the cost of things in our society.

Mechanization and more productive work eventually removes incentive for slavery, or at least severely mitigates it depending on how you look at some parts of modern developing countries or USA prison system.
1. Which means Mills, Ironworks, Academies for sure.
2. Next, cultural component - ensure everyone shares this ideal. Most likely temples, theaters + roads and docks for connectivity and spreading the cultural part around.
Those were items 100% sure to work.

Next, more questionable ideas.
1. More Ceramics and other skilled trades would increase demand for skilled workers and make latifundias less comparatively attractive.
2. Markets will improve economics for lower classes because it would allow people of all trades to sell and acquire services without needing a delicate network of connections. Side-effect: likely to remove "hereditary" part of traders over time.
Case in point for Markets: 25% goes to Culture. This means, I think, that people are selling their services culture-wise - people can buy paintings or a nice vase. Which is pretty great cause it increases social mobility and so on. Capitalism ho!
3. Our mines are staffed by skilled workers, so, amusingly enough, Surveys+Mines may well end up increasing demand for skilled labour and/or increasing access to metals for all people, thus improving efficiency of things.
(Yes I am shilling for Repeated Survey here; but hey, it's cheap and mines are awesome)
4. Farmers being incentivized to increase farming efficiency. Distribute Land? Not sure, maybe, maybe not.
5. Concrete technologies that reduce unskilled labour demand: seed drill? Scythe? Some automation of cotton gathering if possible? Wind mills almost definitely.
 
Yes. Going to Ironworks III will make things a lot worse before it gets better, because it'd drive a general labor shortage problem before the benefits cascade out.

Fastest solution is markets to grease the economics. A market in every city would allow more efficient use of middle class artisan production and lower class spending power, which ultimately makes more profit than the free labor can save.
The manpower exists. Using it efficiently is not being done at all

I think you and I agreed that the most important thing we can do right now is to get more markets online, because we need o defray expenses immediately.
 
Take out an income producing action.

I mean, yes, that works for spite, but it doesn't actually fail the quest this turn (which AN indicated they'd try to do). So it's good to try and figure out what (if anything) they can do to try and cause a failure, so we can plan around it. Not the only concern but something worth considering.

And yeah, I know Suppress would be narratively weird, but I'd rather get confirmation before I translate that as "impossible."
 
[X][Main] Great Dam
[X][Secondary] Upgrade Temple - Horse Valley
[X][Secondary] Upgrade Temple - Horse Valley x2
[X][Secondary] Palace Annex - Great Hall
[X][Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X][Secondary] Invite to Games - Forhuch
[X][Secondary] Support Faction - Traders
[X][Guild] Efficient Charcoal Kilns
[X][Guild] Plant Cash Crops - Textiles
[X][Guild Secondary] Salterns
 
2. Markets will improve economics for lower classes because it would allow people of all trades to sell and acquire services without needing a delicate network of connections. Side-effect: likely to remove "hereditary" part of traders over time.
Case in point for Markets: 25% goes to Culture. This means, I think, that people are selling their services culture-wise - people can buy paintings or a nice vase. Which is pretty great cause it increases social mobility and so on. Capitalism ho!
Think less in terms of paintings and vases, which are more limited because the lower classes cannot produce them. Pigments and kilns are expensive.

Think wood or ivory carvings anyone could make with a knife in their free time as a hobby. Think individuals trading services, sure a low class singer might not get much patronage from the elite, but with the markets they can find SOMEONE interested in having a cheap singer or dancer for their home party every night, and earn an extra silver.

Think people hiring a man in a chicken mask to draw attention to their stall.
That is culture.
I think you and I agreed that the most important thing we can do right now is to get more markets online, because we need o defray expenses immediately.
Pretty much. And getting more free cities online. That helps too. Each free city is another +1 stat point equivalent per turn, maybe more.

Block Housing also works too incidentally. If a little more hazardous.
I mean, yes, that works for spite, but it doesn't actually fail the quest this turn (which AN indicated they'd try to do). So it's good to try and figure out what (if anything) they can do to try and cause a failure, so we can plan around it. Not the only concern but something worth considering.

And yeah, I know Suppress would be narratively weird, but I'd rather get confirmation before I translate that as "impossible."
Can't. Suppress requires Royal signoff, and the Traders with their boosted 8 power would resist the hell out of that.

For taking out income, it'd allow them to leave us with too little wealth to meet the Trade quest. But thats hard because both the Traders and the Guilds will oppose anything which might drive us to Wealth 3.
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by ALanos on Nov 15, 2017 at 7:04 AM, finished with 129293 posts and 32 votes.
 
[X][Main] Great Dam
[X][Secondary] Upgrade Temple - Horse Valley
[X][Secondary] Upgrade Temple - Horse Valley x2
[X][Secondary] Palace Annex - Great Hall
[X][Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X][Secondary] Invite to Games - Forhuch
[X][Secondary] Support Faction - Traders
[X][Guild] Efficient Charcoal Kilns
[X][Guild] Plant Cash Crops - Textiles
[X][Guild Secondary] Salterns
 
[X][Main] Great Dam
[X][Secondary] Upgrade Temple - Horse Valley
[X][Secondary] Upgrade Temple - Horse Valley x2
[X][Secondary] Palace Annex - Great Hall
[X][Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X][Secondary] Found March - Spirit Channel
[X][Secondary] Support Faction - Traders
[X][Guild] Efficient Charcoal Kilns
[X][Guild] Plant Cash Crops - Textiles
[X][Guild Secondary] Salterns
 
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[X][Main] Great Dam
[X][Secondary] Upgrade Temple - Horse Valley
[X][Secondary] Upgrade Temple - Horse Valley x2
[X][Secondary] Found March - Spirit Channel
[X][Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X][Secondary] Invite to Games - Forhuch
[X][Secondary] Support Faction - Traders
[X][Guild] Efficient Charcoal Kilns
[X][Guild] Plant Cash Crops - Textiles
[X][Guild Secondary] Salterns
 
[X][Main] Great Dam
[X][Secondary] Upgrade Temple - Horse Valley
[X][Secondary] Upgrade Temple - Horse Valley x2
[X][Secondary] Palace Annex - Great Hall
[X][Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X][Secondary] Invite to Games - Forhuch
[X][Secondary] Support Faction - Traders
[X][Guild] Efficient Charcoal Kilns
[X][Guild] Plant Cash Crops - Textiles
[X][Guild Secondary] Salterns
 
Before the bandwagon gets too large; any reason for enforce justice over hunt trouble makers?
 
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[X][Main] Great Dam
[X][Secondary] Found March - Spirit Channel
[X][Secondary] Palace Annex - Great Hall
[X][Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X][Secondary] Hunt Troublemakers
[X][Secondary] Invite to Games - Forhuch
[X][Secondary] Support Faction - Traders
[X][Guild] Salterns
[X][Guild] Plant Cash Crops - Textiles
[X][Guild Secondary] Efficient Charcoal Kilns
 
[X][Main] Great Dam
[X][Secondary] Found March - Spirit Channel
[X][Secondary] Palace Annex - Great Hall
[X][Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X][Secondary] Black Soil
[X][Secondary] Invite to Games - Forhuch
[X][Secondary] Support Faction - Traders
[X][Guild] Salterns
[X][Guild] Efficient Charcoal Kilns
[X][Guild Secondary] Efficient Charcoal Kilns x2

Founding a march at the Spirit channel seems like a good idea...war with the HK seems inevitable.

Also, we simply don't have any econ expansion to spare, so i'm going for Black Soil and double charcoal kilns.
 
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