- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Alright, I think that works fine for debating the ethical ramifications of the action. The existence of reasonable expectation that said intent will be executed on is something that it is productive to attempt persuasion or form a performative debate around.I mean basically I agree with you on all points. From a consequence-oriented mindset, virtue ethics are fundamentally weird in a way that most other ideological stances aren't, because the divergence point is at the very most basic level - for what reasons do you make decisions? In real life I employ such a consequence-oriented mindset, so I likewise find virtue ethics deeply alien, and I find that fascinating. Basically, I'm employing such ethical standards here because it's an interesting and enjoyable thought experiment in what the world looks like from a viewpoint wildly different from my own. Since this is just a game, it's a safe place for such exploration - without risk of causing any meaningful consequences, my ordinary ethical system is mute on the subject of "what are the ethical non-disruptive ways of engaging in this quest." I've been having a great time so far, and you seem interested in the topic, so personally I'd suggest you give it a try yourself - make a few votes as if you were a virtue ethicist, or at least try and think about how you would vote if that were the case. It's a neat perspective shift!
In terms of "how much of an action's consequences are part of the action," the obvious standard is intent, under the condition that the actor in question has sufficient information (or at least believes this is the case - being wrong is not unethical, just unfortunate) and the reasonable expectation that said intent will be executed on. For instance, AN has supplied information on what addressing the half-exile problem will entail. If on the basis of this information I choose to vote for that option, with the intent of reducing abuse of the half-exile system, this is an ethical act because I have the reasonable expectation that my intent to do so will be followed through on.
This does of course presume that the action I intend to perform is itself ethical. As for what determines which actions are ethical, my basic answer is that while this is a fun thought experiment, it is fundamentally a game and I'm playing it to have fun. Thus far I haven't bothered deriving/researching a specific virtue-ethical framework for evaluating actions, because that hasn't seemed fun/interesting enough to be worth the effort, so I've just been using more or less gut feelings on the matter. I recognize this is the weakest point here, the reason being that I am not actually a virtue ethicist and so haven't bothered putting enough thought into this particular problem to resolve it, but this discussion is interesting enough that I'm considering working out something more detailed to proceed from henceforth. I dunno, we'll see how it goes. Input welcome, obviously, if anyone has suggestions for interesting schema to try out; otherwise I may or may not find one on my own.
Addendum: sorry if this is starting to clutter up the thread too much, but I figure it is germane - if somewhat tangentially - to the quest, insofar as it concerns voting behaviors in said quest. Let me know if it's bothering people though, I can take it to PMs or something (trickier with 3 participants or I might have tried already).
Honestly, I think it's already close to the implicit standard I was looking at with this post evaluating the viability of the action:
[] [Purity] If slavery is so bad in comparison, maybe even the half-exiles need to be addressed (-1 Stability, the next Patrician, Guild, and Trader quests are all spite quests, all Wealth costs are doubled going forward)
So, if this is at all tenable, it's clearly the thing to do. Is it at all tenable? Clearly there are things that we currently plan to do that we would never do once this effect is in place; are those things worth pseudo slavery?
Are there things required to address existential threats which we would be unable to do with this option? If we do this and fracture, you can be quite sure that slavery will come back in force, so it's only if we can go for this and hold it that we should do it.
For reference, here's our up to date action list:
And here's @PrimalShadow 's recent shortlist of ways to spend Wealth:
The main takeaway here is that the advancement of our internal logistics would be massively slowed, and military buildup would become very difficult - the most efficient way much of the time would be to lean hard on stat positive actions for several turns to overflow into Martial, then hold very tightly indeed onto that Martial. War would be a far more costly concern than it is now, as our ability to bounce back would be crippled. Watchtowers and Defence Policy would become important, I think, as a way to build up against the nomad threat without spending Wealth.
- We'll take Roads less often with this - it's already a little tricky to work them in and 4 Wealth will make them hard to budget from that end as well
- Build Mills we can live without and probably won't ever take. Our exciting new Increase Cement Production will be torturously difficult to work in at -8 Wealth.
- Kilns become less convenient, but we do have Repeated Expand Forests to look forward to - we'll have to limit our Infrastructure policies to account for this.
- Festival is already rare for us to take - I expect us to eschew it entirely with this.
- We'd switch to Secondary Hunt Troublemakers, I think, which isn't so bad. Launch Intrigue Mission becomes much harder to pair with military buildup which is usually when we'd want to use it.
- -14 Wealth for Main Support Sacred Orders , -10 Wealth for Main Raise Army, and -10 Wealth for More Warships. How do we accomplish that??
- Diplomatic Mission instantly supplants Salt Gift's role - and is probably a bit less effective at it.
- Study Health doesn't change that much, and Study Metal is probably still justifiable. We already have trouble justifying Study Alchemy, so I don't think we'd take that. I hope you didn't want gunpowder or better paper.
The other main aspect is our Wealth income and maintenance. With all three mercenary companies on our Wealth income - which I believe is what we need to do for them to properly maintain their role and for their loyalty to increase again - we'd go from +7 net currently all the way to -2 net. From tied as our largest income to having to actively generate a fairly difficult to generate stat just to stay afloat. That means that this change could potentially cost us our professional army if we discover problems with keeping them added to our martial score.
I'm tentatively in favor of going for this option, but let me say now that I expect severe buyer's remorse if we do. I think this needs to be worth, say, 5 Megaprojects over the next 15 turns to be the right choice, because in quite a few areas we will be barely treading water or our development will be stalled for centuries.