I mean basically I agree with you on all points. From a consequence-oriented mindset, virtue ethics are fundamentally weird in a way that most other ideological stances aren't, because the divergence point is at the very most basic level - for what reasons do you make decisions? In real life I employ such a consequence-oriented mindset, so I likewise find virtue ethics deeply alien, and I find that fascinating. Basically, I'm employing such ethical standards here because it's an interesting and enjoyable thought experiment in what the world looks like from a viewpoint wildly different from my own. Since this is just a game, it's a safe place for such exploration - without risk of causing any meaningful consequences, my ordinary ethical system is mute on the subject of "what are the ethical non-disruptive ways of engaging in this quest." I've been having a great time so far, and you seem interested in the topic, so personally I'd suggest you give it a try yourself - make a few votes as if you were a virtue ethicist, or at least try and think about how you would vote if that were the case. It's a neat perspective shift!


In terms of "how much of an action's consequences are part of the action," the obvious standard is intent, under the condition that the actor in question has sufficient information (or at least believes this is the case - being wrong is not unethical, just unfortunate) and the reasonable expectation that said intent will be executed on. For instance, AN has supplied information on what addressing the half-exile problem will entail. If on the basis of this information I choose to vote for that option, with the intent of reducing abuse of the half-exile system, this is an ethical act because I have the reasonable expectation that my intent to do so will be followed through on.

This does of course presume that the action I intend to perform is itself ethical. As for what determines which actions are ethical, my basic answer is that while this is a fun thought experiment, it is fundamentally a game and I'm playing it to have fun. Thus far I haven't bothered deriving/researching a specific virtue-ethical framework for evaluating actions, because that hasn't seemed fun/interesting enough to be worth the effort, so I've just been using more or less gut feelings on the matter. I recognize this is the weakest point here, the reason being that I am not actually a virtue ethicist and so haven't bothered putting enough thought into this particular problem to resolve it, but this discussion is interesting enough that I'm considering working out something more detailed to proceed from henceforth. I dunno, we'll see how it goes. Input welcome, obviously, if anyone has suggestions for interesting schema to try out; otherwise I may or may not find one on my own.

Addendum: sorry if this is starting to clutter up the thread too much, but I figure it is germane - if somewhat tangentially - to the quest, insofar as it concerns voting behaviors in said quest. Let me know if it's bothering people though, I can take it to PMs or something (trickier with 3 participants or I might have tried already).
Alright, I think that works fine for debating the ethical ramifications of the action. The existence of reasonable expectation that said intent will be executed on is something that it is productive to attempt persuasion or form a performative debate around.

Honestly, I think it's already close to the implicit standard I was looking at with this post evaluating the viability of the action:
[] [Purity] If slavery is so bad in comparison, maybe even the half-exiles need to be addressed (-1 Stability, the next Patrician, Guild, and Trader quests are all spite quests, all Wealth costs are doubled going forward)
So, if this is at all tenable, it's clearly the thing to do. Is it at all tenable? Clearly there are things that we currently plan to do that we would never do once this effect is in place; are those things worth pseudo slavery?
Are there things required to address existential threats which we would be unable to do with this option? If we do this and fracture, you can be quite sure that slavery will come back in force, so it's only if we can go for this and hold it that we should do it.
For reference, here's our up to date action list:




And here's @PrimalShadow 's recent shortlist of ways to spend Wealth:

  • We'll take Roads less often with this - it's already a little tricky to work them in and 4 Wealth will make them hard to budget from that end as well
  • Build Mills we can live without and probably won't ever take. Our exciting new Increase Cement Production will be torturously difficult to work in at -8 Wealth.
  • Kilns become less convenient, but we do have Repeated Expand Forests to look forward to - we'll have to limit our Infrastructure policies to account for this.
  • Festival is already rare for us to take - I expect us to eschew it entirely with this.
  • We'd switch to Secondary Hunt Troublemakers, I think, which isn't so bad. Launch Intrigue Mission becomes much harder to pair with military buildup which is usually when we'd want to use it.
  • -14 Wealth for Main Support Sacred Orders , -10 Wealth for Main Raise Army, and -10 Wealth for More Warships. How do we accomplish that??
  • Diplomatic Mission instantly supplants Salt Gift's role - and is probably a bit less effective at it.
  • Study Health doesn't change that much, and Study Metal is probably still justifiable. We already have trouble justifying Study Alchemy, so I don't think we'd take that. I hope you didn't want gunpowder or better paper.
The main takeaway here is that the advancement of our internal logistics would be massively slowed, and military buildup would become very difficult - the most efficient way much of the time would be to lean hard on stat positive actions for several turns to overflow into Martial, then hold very tightly indeed onto that Martial. War would be a far more costly concern than it is now, as our ability to bounce back would be crippled. Watchtowers and Defence Policy would become important, I think, as a way to build up against the nomad threat without spending Wealth.

The other main aspect is our Wealth income and maintenance. With all three mercenary companies on our Wealth income - which I believe is what we need to do for them to properly maintain their role and for their loyalty to increase again - we'd go from +7 net currently all the way to -2 net. From tied as our largest income to having to actively generate a fairly difficult to generate stat just to stay afloat. That means that this change could potentially cost us our professional army if we discover problems with keeping them added to our martial score.

I'm tentatively in favor of going for this option, but let me say now that I expect severe buyer's remorse if we do. I think this needs to be worth, say, 5 Megaprojects over the next 15 turns to be the right choice, because in quite a few areas we will be barely treading water or our development will be stalled for centuries.
 
Not really. The urban poor can make angry mobs and storm our centers of power, they have training and weapons. The rural poor are untrained, not concentrated enough to organize large-scale rebellions and basically helpless in the face of proper armies in the field. The worst peasant rebellions could do at this tech level was scorched earth tactics, but that is blasphemy to the Ymaryn.

Less peasant rebellion, more everyone moved to the city and now we're running out of food.
 
Ok we have a problem, with this vote winning we all agree that the only way out of this wealth hole is markets and cities. The problem of course is plagues, not only do we not have any technological advances in hygiene and medicine since when the last plague started, it's basically impossible to get much better then what we have technologically speaking. In fact as much as some people might not want to admit it i'm pretty sure that a lot of the cultural advantages to disease rolls we had, have been from the Proto-Purity we've been building for quite a long time.

What this means is that I think, that if we remove Purity our disease resistance will go down compared to where we were at at the start of the last plague. Now I was willing to go through with it anyway, as I thought the risk was worth it but with us going all in on Urbanization I think we need it.

Now it does not mean we can't do anything with Purity there are two different plans I have to deal with it.

1 upgraded it, the most reliable way would be mega-projects. This is a bit hit and miss and would take a while with the worst case being we upgrade it to something worse.

2 we finish the Urban poor quest as soon as possible to get the social value slot and then use Pride in Acceptance Linking to find a spiritual value to fuse with Purity. if you thought the first plan was hit and miss this one is ridiculous, we could find a value that would fuse with something else or not fuse with anything or as a worst case scenario we could find a value they makes Purity a lot worse. But this will be a lot quicker, in fact if we luck out by next midterm we could have something we could live with.

Neither of these are good options but I think if we lose the disease resistance from Purity while going all in on cities it would be the death of us.

I suspect our current choice is going to have a big influence on how Purity evolves in the future.
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by Carrnage on Nov 14, 2017 at 5:55 AM, finished with 128759 posts and 111 votes.
 
Less peasant rebellion, more everyone moved to the city and now we're running out of food.

All the heavily armed people with the levers of moral and institutional authority in hand. If "everyone in the cities is starving" we are dying of something else not rural inequality.

And no they can't all move to the cities, the armed yeomen would stop them.
 
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It is, it'd hurt their annual floods, but they won't notice for a century or two because we've black soiled the whole river banks with our runoff by now.

Nope.

The point of Black Soil is that it like a binding agent for nutrients. Especially nitrogen which is extremely easy to wash out.

Any runoff will be effective for maybe one growing season at the outside, if it's any notable quantity at all at this tech level and farm density.

The Black Soil itself doesn't wash out either. The whole point of our obsession with agriculture is to prevent stuff like erosion from even happening.

I think it was even a major point when what became Redshore joined up with us.

So our use of Black Soil has at most a marginal impact on the Highlanders. What would hurt them more is if the silt is stopped at the Dam or the floods aren't as intense as they need them.

Or of course Ymaryn Longships suddenly sailing down the river and laying siege to their most productive farmland. Unlike Trelli, the HK are logistically speaking on our frontlawn.
 
Nope.

The point of Black Soil is that it like a binding agent for nutrients. Especially nitrogen which is extremely easy to wash out.

Any runoff will be effective for maybe one growing season at the outside, if it's any notable quantity at all at this tech level and farm density.

The Black Soil itself doesn't wash out either. The whole point of our obsession with agriculture is to prevent stuff like erosion from even happening.

I think it was even a major point when what became Redshore joined up with us.

So our use of Black Soil has at most a marginal impact on the Highlanders. What would hurt them more is if the silt is stopped at the Dam or the floods aren't as intense as they need them.

Or of course Ymaryn Longships suddenly sailing down the river and laying siege to their most productive farmland. Unlike Trelli, the HK are logistically speaking on our frontlawn.

Cavarly 4 (almost-horde size) means that if we start a war their Lowlands possessions disappear. If they war against Harmurri, their army in Lowlands, too, disappears.

Remember how horde managed to raid all the Lowlands. Our cavalry is no horde, but it's close enough for HK who never had to deal with a real one.
And then there are three mercenary companies.

I am pretty sure we can remove HK from Lowlands and maybe take passes within one turn of Offensive Policy. One turn of Mass Levy will likely just steamroll their everything, but it's too expensive.
 
Cavarly 4 (almost-horde size) means that if we start a war their Lowlands possessions disappear. If they war against Harmurri, their army in Lowlands, too, disappears.

Remember how horde managed to raid all the Lowlands. Our cavalry is no horde, but it's close enough for HK who never had to deal with a real one.
And then there are three mercenary companies.

I am pretty sure we can remove HK from Lowlands and maybe take passes within one turn of Offensive Policy. One turn of Mass Levy will likely just steamroll their everything, but it's too expensive.


Oh, I'm aware of that. And I'm fully on board for only taking their lowland holdings as those are hell to fortify against what we bring to the table. In the long run, this also cripples their ability to threaten us any further as their breadbasket is effectively gone.

(I am, of course, perfectly okay with it if the local commander catches some of their inner forts with their pants down and pushes into HK Core territory, if only it means we can bottle them up in their own hills, using their own fortifications)
 
Cavarly 4 (almost-horde size) means that if we start a war their Lowlands possessions disappear. If they war against Harmurri, their army in Lowlands, too, disappears.

Remember how horde managed to raid all the Lowlands. Our cavalry is no horde, but it's close enough for HK who never had to deal with a real one.
And then there are three mercenary companies.

I am pretty sure we can remove HK from Lowlands and maybe take passes within one turn of Offensive Policy. One turn of Mass Levy will likely just steamroll their everything, but it's too expensive.

To be fair the HK strength lies in being strong in the defensive (and being tenacious bastards) and their "interlocking" and superb fortresses which is exactly the kind of warfare that cavalry 8or indeed raiding in general) is bad against. And since they conquered the lowlands themselves (and probably in in a quite brutal manner considering their religious motivation) a "scorched earth" tactic seems to be of dubious use against them, at least in my opinion. If they had time to set up some "fortresses" I would argue that they could relatively comfortably sit out the cavalry which would leave our mercenary companies to do the hard of actually besieging them which in this time is a very costly affair.

Just because it are lowlands doesn't mean you can't build fortifications.
 
Oh, I'm aware of that. And I'm fully on board for only taking their lowland holdings as those are hell to fortify against what we bring to the table. In the long run, this also cripples their ability to threaten us any further as their breadbasket is effectively gone.

(I am, of course, perfectly okay with it if the local commander catches some of their inner forts with their pants down and pushes into HK Core territory, if only it means we can bottle them up in their own hills, using their own fortifications)

Yeep.

To be fair the HK strength lies in being strong in the defensive (and being tenacious bastards) and their "interlocking" and superb fortresses which is exactly the kind of warfare that cavalry 8or indeed raiding in general) is bad against. And since they conquered the lowlands themselves (and probably in in a quite brutal manner considering their religious motivation) a "scorched earth" tactic seems to be of dubious use against them, at least in my opinion. If they had time to set up some "fortresses" I would argue that they could relatively comfortably sit out the cavalry which would leave our mercenary companies to do the hard of actually besieging them which in this time is a very costly affair.

Just because it are lowlands doesn't mean you can't build fortifications.

First of all, they've conquered some minors between them and HK. Those thingies are going to fold to cav real quick.
Second, cavalry raids will mean that their supply routes to actual armies are unsafe and they will be forced to hide back in their mountains. Getting them there is another beast entirely, but even white peace + removing all their conquests+whatever Lowland holdings they had is still good enough.

On non-war matters. Why is not-the-biggest Dam winning?
Biggest Dam would be the coolest! It would allow us stuff.

The biggest is kind of a dick waving symbol, but it is theoretically stronger and can handle a larger amount of water than the second biggest.

More strength and water capacity means no SUDDENLY FLOOD FUCK YOUR DAM shenanigans.
And plenty of experience in building big and strong structures, cue even more colossal colossal walls. And other walls for that matter.
 
To be fair the HK strength lies in being strong in the defensive (and being tenacious bastards) and their "interlocking" and superb fortresses which is exactly the kind of warfare that cavalry 8or indeed raiding in general) is bad against. And since they conquered the lowlands themselves (and probably in in a quite brutal manner considering their religious motivation) a "scorched earth" tactic seems to be of dubious use against them, at least in my opinion. If they had time to set up some "fortresses" I would argue that they could relatively comfortably sit out the cavalry which would leave our mercenary companies to do the hard of actually besieging them which in this time is a very costly affair.

Just because it are lowlands doesn't mean you can't build fortifications.

It's impossible to fortify the fields. Make it impossible for them to to harvest food and they will starve behind their walls.
 
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Yay! We debated until our people wanted to legalize slavery!

/sarcasm

As an aside, I support Purity. Always has, always will.
Purity = anti-slavery

[X] [Purity] If slavery is so bad in comparison, maybe even the half-exiles need to be addressed (-1 Stability, the next Patrician, Guild, and Trader quests are all spite quests, all Wealth costs are doubled going forward)
[X] [Dam] Move to the bigger but more useful proposal (1 Wealth and 1 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 2 actions to complete)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn)
[X] [PP] City Support (4 Econ cost for True Cities offset each turn, -1 Tech)
 
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I like how we were:
Get rid of purity!

"Then this update appears, then:

"Nope, nope, nope, Puritans are right!"
"Lets go all in to support Purity by revolutionizing our entire workforce even though we will piss off all our movers and shakers."

I expect Purity to be deeply entrenched after this update.
 
Alright, I think that works fine for debating the ethical ramifications of the action. The existence of reasonable expectation that said intent will be executed on is something that it is productive to attempt persuasion or form a performative debate around.

Honestly, I think it's already close to the implicit standard I was looking at with this post evaluating the viability of the action:

Yeah, pretty close - the key difference is the intent in question, or the interpretation of successful execution, which ultimately shakes out to the same thing. Your post indicated a requirement that we not fracture as a result of this action, at which point the guiding intent is something along the lines of "help the half-exiles if and only if it won't cause certain other problems." From a virtue-ethical perspective, that latter component could be entirely ignored - if it is ethical to help the half-exiles, it is always ethical to help the half-exiles, and damn the side effects. Note that in this context "help" means "take actions intended to benefit," which still counts even if those actions cause negative side effects for the half-exiles later.
Yay! We debated until our people wanted to legalize slavery!

/sarcasm

And because of the culture of debating and questioning we've established up 'til now, we have the chance to not only push back against that but work on correcting systemic injustices in our society. So I think we can unironically put this one in the "win" column.
 
And because of the culture of debating and questioning we've established up 'til now, we have the chance to not only push back against that but work on correcting systemic injustices in our society. So I think we can unironically put this one in the "win" column.

Sure. And I expect Purity becomes our majority faith after this.
 
I expect Purity to be deeply entrenched after this update.
Okay, but like, if that means half-exile is not de facto slavery anymore? Then I'd call that an excellent trade-off.

On the flipside, the only option that would have gotten rid of purity has the chance of introducing full on slavery, and that would have been a terrible trade-off.

Wanting to get rid of purity doesn't mean we need to gain tunnel vision. The slavery question is just more important.
 
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[X] [Dam] Make it as big and impressive as possible (2 Wealth and 2 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 3 actions to complete)
[X] [Purity] Look to the heavens for a sign (Random, could be all good results from above options, could be all bad results from above options, likely a mix)

[X] [Purity] Embrace Sheepdom

[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn)x2
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn)x3
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn)x4
 
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[X] [Dam] Make it as big and impressive as possible (2 Wealth and 2 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 3 actions to complete)
[X] [Purity] Look to the heavens for a sign (Random, could be all good results from above options, could be all bad results from above options, likely a mix)

[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn)

You may need x2, x3 x4...
 
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