Point, however it pays to remember that the Western Wall, Greenshore and even Txolla have one True City each, so our vassals are going to be impacted by change in half-exile laws.
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
Point, however it pays to remember that the Western Wall, Greenshore and even Txolla have one True City each, so our vassals are going to be impacted by change in half-exile laws.
- Location
- Somewhere
That is the worst reason to go for the expensive option without even mentioning the current winning vote that will double the wealth cost of the dam, and the wealth cost of everything else. I haven't looked at the thread in full yet, so I don't know if doubling wealth and taking the most expensive dam choice will collapse the Ymaryn.
Long story short: no it will not, unless we're dumb. It means no Megaproject Support or big wealth spenders though.
- Location
- Diamond City
[X] [Purity] If slavery is so bad in comparison, maybe even the half-exiles need to be addressed (-1 Stability, the next Patrician, Guild, and Trader quests are all spite quests, all Wealth costs are doubled going forward)
I've been trying to stitch up my life back up ever nearly dying multiple times, since losing my home, nearly losing my engagement with my fiancee, moving back to my home city, dealing with family drama, dealing with a firehose of amnesia, and everything else.
It's been a hellhole I am trying to rebuild my way out of and it's slowly working. I have always survived against everything thrown against me and overcome the seemingly impossible because I listen to my extensive knowledge and my sense of wisdom.
----
You know what both of those parts of myself have always told me? To always listen to my ethical compass.
It's never steered me wrong and I've always come out the better for it.
That compass is telling me that we need to swallow the costs and finally purge away the goddamn plague-ridden trashfire storm of half-exiledom that's been a cancer on this society we made.
I was a determined advocate for the ecological system. I pushed hard for Terra Preta. For Black Soil. That shit is the lifeblood of our society. Without that, we wouldn't have been able to do half the things that we have done. We've built a vast biological forest system but that forest has always been in a symbiotic relation with Ymaryn Society's ethics.
Those Ethics are an ethical forest that has a widespread fungus rot of the institution which is the institution of half-exiledom. We need to purge that shit before it turns everything we've built into a bad joke at best and salted ashes at worst.
We can rebuild but we'll have lost that long line of continuity. Let's not be the weak link in the chain.
-------
I won't lie. We might face tough shit but we'll get through it. We always do.
Let me remind the entire thread of a drought we faced early on.
The Early Ymaryn sacrificed so much but that sacrifice was the seed for our entire society.
It'll be hard. It'll be very hard. I won't sugarcoat that. We're clever bastards. We always out-think our problems and we'll out-think whatever comes.
but this sacrifice, I promise you will bring us long-term rewards that will ensure our regional dominance. It'll lead to us becoming a long-lasting empire like China with the same long line of continuity.
Let's be the Ymaryn we've always dreamed ourselves to be.
I've been trying to stitch up my life back up ever nearly dying multiple times, since losing my home, nearly losing my engagement with my fiancee, moving back to my home city, dealing with family drama, dealing with a firehose of amnesia, and everything else.
It's been a hellhole I am trying to rebuild my way out of and it's slowly working. I have always survived against everything thrown against me and overcome the seemingly impossible because I listen to my extensive knowledge and my sense of wisdom.
----
You know what both of those parts of myself have always told me? To always listen to my ethical compass.
It's never steered me wrong and I've always come out the better for it.
That compass is telling me that we need to swallow the costs and finally purge away the goddamn plague-ridden trashfire storm of half-exiledom that's been a cancer on this society we made.
I was a determined advocate for the ecological system. I pushed hard for Terra Preta. For Black Soil. That shit is the lifeblood of our society. Without that, we wouldn't have been able to do half the things that we have done. We've built a vast biological forest system but that forest has always been in a symbiotic relation with Ymaryn Society's ethics.
Those Ethics are an ethical forest that has a widespread fungus rot of the institution which is the institution of half-exiledom. We need to purge that shit before it turns everything we've built into a bad joke at best and salted ashes at worst.
We can rebuild but we'll have lost that long line of continuity. Let's not be the weak link in the chain.
-------
I won't lie. We might face tough shit but we'll get through it. We always do.
Let me remind the entire thread of a drought we faced early on.
The Early Ymaryn sacrificed so much but that sacrifice was the seed for our entire society.
It'll be hard. It'll be very hard. I won't sugarcoat that. We're clever bastards. We always out-think our problems and we'll out-think whatever comes.
but this sacrifice, I promise you will bring us long-term rewards that will ensure our regional dominance. It'll lead to us becoming a long-lasting empire like China with the same long line of continuity.
Let's be the Ymaryn we've always dreamed ourselves to be.
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- Location
- Austria
It does not guarantee collapse, but it will make things very painful until we have 7-8 markets.
Point of note: all army actions are big wealth spenders.
Wiadi
Uncompromising Radical Leftist
- Location
- Something Clever
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I mean basically I agree with you on all points. From a consequence-oriented mindset, virtue ethics are fundamentally weird in a way that most other ideological stances aren't, because the divergence point is at the very most basic level - for what reasons do you make decisions? In real life I employ such a consequence-oriented mindset, so I likewise find virtue ethics deeply alien, and I find that fascinating. Basically, I'm employing such ethical standards here because it's an interesting and enjoyable thought experiment in what the world looks like from a viewpoint wildly different from my own. Since this is just a game, it's a safe place for such exploration - without risk of causing any meaningful consequences, my ordinary ethical system is mute on the subject of "what are the ethical non-disruptive ways of engaging in this quest." I've been having a great time so far, and you seem interested in the topic, so personally I'd suggest you give it a try yourself - make a few votes as if you were a virtue ethicist, or at least try and think about how you would vote if that were the case. It's a neat perspective shift!
In terms of "how much of an action's consequences are part of the action," the obvious standard is intent, under the condition that the actor in question has sufficient information (or at least believes this is the case - being wrong is not unethical, just unfortunate) and the reasonable expectation that said intent will be executed on. For instance, AN has supplied information on what addressing the half-exile problem will entail. If on the basis of this information I choose to vote for that option, with the intent of reducing abuse of the half-exile system, this is an ethical act because I have the reasonable expectation that my intent to do so will be followed through on.
This does of course presume that the action I intend to perform is itself ethical. As for what determines which actions are ethical, my basic answer is that while this is a fun thought experiment, it is fundamentally a game and I'm playing it to have fun. Thus far I haven't bothered deriving/researching a specific virtue-ethical framework for evaluating actions, because that hasn't seemed fun/interesting enough to be worth the effort, so I've just been using more or less gut feelings on the matter. I recognize this is the weakest point here, the reason being that I am not actually a virtue ethicist and so haven't bothered putting enough thought into this particular problem to resolve it, but this discussion is interesting enough that I'm considering working out something more detailed to proceed from henceforth. I dunno, we'll see how it goes. Input welcome, obviously, if anyone has suggestions for interesting schema to try out; otherwise I may or may not find one on my own.
Addendum: sorry if this is starting to clutter up the thread too much, but I figure it is germane - if somewhat tangentially - to the quest, insofar as it concerns voting behaviors in said quest. Let me know if it's bothering people though, I can take it to PMs or something (trickier with 3 participants or I might have tried already).
- Location
- Diamond City
On a sidenote, let's not take the expensive dam choice. Purging the institution of Half-Exiledom will be bloody expensive. The expensive dam choice will put us waaaaay too close to the edge and we need all the buffer we can get to get through the hard shit that is to come.
Omegahugger
Inattentive Idiot
Why is "I want the most expensive option" a bad reason to vote for the most expensive option? You might as well say that not wanting Hald-exiles essentially being slaves is the worst reason to go for the reforms.
We only have one shot at making this dam grand, and I'm taking it. Even if it means tactically unwise voting.
- Location
- Austria
Not really.
Textiles planting, once you factor in all the overflows, is something about +11 wealth. Taking two of those will cap our wealth.
And grand dam is really a megproject (a Wonder at this point) worth the pains: it will open up better avenues of canal, will impress people, will find new architecture techniques for us, and so on.
In reality, we can of course take one or maybe two big wealth spenders if we need to, including Raise Army. We just can't take anything else if we want to. No Kilns, Roads or anything else. At least for this turn. Entering in with low wealth is a nightmare for us now, and something we need to avoid for the immediate future. So no spending down to the bottom of the barrel trying to eke out every advantage.
DkArthas
CAPITAL IS TO BLAME
- Location
- Earth
- Pronouns
- They
We are not purging the Half-exile system, merely reforming it.
- Location
- Somewhere
Preventing 8 more wealth loss in the long run by not taking the most expensive option after doubling wealth should be a more logical choice than emotional when we might be dragged into a war within 5 turns. People say we can have both, then fine we can have both! Do be prepared to shatter if we take both though. And you are aware that our most likely successor would be the Storm Ymaryn, a bunch of slavers right?
Edit: my math is probably wrong, I don't see how many turns left are needed for the dam to add the amount on the update onto.
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Katsuragi
The 1%
[X] [Dam] Make it as big and impressive as possible (2 Wealth and 2 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 3 actions to complete)
[X] [Purity] If slavery is so bad in comparison, maybe even the half-exiles need to be addressed (-1 Stability, the next Patrician, Guild, and Trader quests are all spite quests, all Wealth costs are doubled going forward)
[X] [PP] City Support (4 Econ cost for True Cities offset each turn, -1 Tech)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x2
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x3
[X] [Purity] If slavery is so bad in comparison, maybe even the half-exiles need to be addressed (-1 Stability, the next Patrician, Guild, and Trader quests are all spite quests, all Wealth costs are doubled going forward)
[X] [PP] City Support (4 Econ cost for True Cities offset each turn, -1 Tech)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x2
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x3
- Location
- Diamond City
I hope so. My main concern is removing the institution of half-exiledom. It's been a huge pet peeve of mine for a looong time and I would like to end it once and for all.
Omegahugger
Inattentive Idiot
It's not like I am trying to go for both, so I'm not entirely sure where that fervor came from. My plan is asking the spirits for guidance, because when have they* ever lead us wrong?
*The spirits, not the priests
And no way our only successor would be the Storm Ymaryn unless we shatter so terribly there's literally no one left. Which is statiscally unlikely.
The winning vote does not remove it, just makes it far less slavery by another name.
...so they get Bazaar boosted markets to solve the problem with us. They can afford it, the problem is mostly all the elites having their dirty laundry aired.
- Location
- Diamond City
True, but I want to cut away as much as possible of the rot as we can.
Ehhh, there's a million other kinds of labor systems we could establish to fill the labour shortage left by a mostly reformed or abolished half-exile system. Systems that would work far better than half-exiledom.
Plus, we're likely to discover more labour saving devices on the way that'll fill in part of the gap. Labour shortages usually have a way of encouraging innovation.
---
Tally:
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More to the point, it yanks out the system by the root cause: making it so that half exiles aren't profitable to use removes all the forces intent upon maintaining a supply of half exiles.
Its like the root of any prison system reform, if the prison is for profit they'd expend absolutely no effort to actually ensure the prisoner doesn't come right back.
Huh...
Is Econ basically our corvee labor stat? So the Yeomen pay with corvee labor instead of coin?
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- Location
- Somewhere
You are advocating for the most expensive dam choice the "[] [Purity] If slavery is so bad in comparison, maybe even the half-exiles need to be addressed (-1 Stability, the next Patrician, Guild, and Trader quests are all spite quests, all Wealth costs are doubled going forward)" choice has such a strong lead that nothing can stop this choice from winning. Your choice however can impact things if other people choose to vote for the most expensive dam choice due to an emotional outburst, as you were encouraging.
Yeah, yeah personal feelings, that isn't necessarily what others feel. Others who might feel I'm picking on you and vote for the most expensive dam choice out of spite. Others who might agree that we should go for the most expensive dam choice because we can, and the Ymaryn should have the bestes best Dam evah! Others who might not even exist after we have more than 100 voters already. The vote usually can't be changed after 125 voters. I can't remember a time we had near 200 voters.
What is the highest amount of voters the thread ever had in one vote?
10ebbor10
DON'T PANIC
- Location
- Present
Which shows to me that the reforms are going to be counterproductive.
The only permanent solution to the Half-exile issue is to improve productivity. But the thing we're doing now cripples those productivity improvements. At the same time, it will force us to take rural Wealth producing actions that rely on mass labor.
So, we create an illusion of equality in the city, and mass inequality in the rural areas. Combined with panem, that coukd get ugly.
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- Location
- Australia
Ok we have a problem, with this vote winning we all agree that the only way out of this wealth hole is markets and cities. The problem of course is plagues, not only do we not have any technological advances in hygiene and medicine since when the last plague started, it's basically impossible to get much better then what we have technologically speaking. In fact as much as some people might not want to admit it i'm pretty sure that a lot of the cultural advantages to disease rolls we had, have been from the Proto-Purity we've been building for quite a long time.
What this means is that I think, that if we remove Purity our disease resistance will go down compared to where we were at at the start of the last plague. Now I was willing to go through with it anyway, as I thought the risk was worth it but with us going all in on Urbanization I think we need it.
Now it does not mean we can't do anything with Purity there are two different plans I have to deal with it.
1 upgraded it, the most reliable way would be mega-projects. This is a bit hit and miss and would take a while with the worst case being we upgrade it to something worse.
2 we finish the Urban poor quest as soon as possible to get the social value slot and then use Pride in Acceptance Linking to find a spiritual value to fuse with Purity. if you thought the first plan was hit and miss this one is ridiculous, we could find a value that would fuse with something else or not fuse with anything or as a worst case scenario we could find a value they makes Purity a lot worse. But this will be a lot quicker, in fact if we luck out by next midterm we could have something we could live with.
Neither of these are good options but I think if we lose the disease resistance from Purity while going all in on cities it would be the death of us.
What this means is that I think, that if we remove Purity our disease resistance will go down compared to where we were at at the start of the last plague. Now I was willing to go through with it anyway, as I thought the risk was worth it but with us going all in on Urbanization I think we need it.
Now it does not mean we can't do anything with Purity there are two different plans I have to deal with it.
1 upgraded it, the most reliable way would be mega-projects. This is a bit hit and miss and would take a while with the worst case being we upgrade it to something worse.
2 we finish the Urban poor quest as soon as possible to get the social value slot and then use Pride in Acceptance Linking to find a spiritual value to fuse with Purity. if you thought the first plan was hit and miss this one is ridiculous, we could find a value that would fuse with something else or not fuse with anything or as a worst case scenario we could find a value they makes Purity a lot worse. But this will be a lot quicker, in fact if we luck out by next midterm we could have something we could live with.
Neither of these are good options but I think if we lose the disease resistance from Purity while going all in on cities it would be the death of us.
Not really. The urban poor can make angry mobs and storm our centers of power, they have training and weapons. The rural poor are untrained, not concentrated enough to organize large-scale rebellions and basically helpless in the face of proper armies in the field. The worst peasant rebellions could do at this tech level was scorched earth tactics, but that is blasphemy to the Ymaryn.
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