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Paths of Civilization

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Ghostdevil said:
That'd be fine, we would be VASTLY more prepared for it than now, we have almost nothing going right now that makes this a good idea, we literally just got out of a super fire and another fire is on the way let alone the fire this will cause, The future means were more advanced and our government is better, nevermind that Slavery has a shelf life if we remain a First World Country
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Future time also means future fire, which I guarantee will be just as hot and hard to handle as it is now, if not worse.

Point being, [somewhat unclear Eminem reference here], and all that.

S'my stance, anyway.
 
Xantalos said:
Future time also means future fire, which I guarantee will be just as hot and hard to handle as it is now, if not worse.

Point being, [somewhat unclear Eminem reference here], and all that.

S'my stance, anyway.
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Yea but compared to here it'll be better, it'll be a fire still but our system can handle the strain of no slavery in any form better in that future than we can now.
 
Andres110 said:
Your opinion then is that the People should practice slavery because it's the easiest thing to do? That would make them evil.
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I don't describe Nations as Evil, especially ones like this
Besides Who cares? Its better than shooting ourselves in the foot and risk losing it all on a measure that most likely won't last long without constant and extensive prices, until industrialization when Slavery isn't so damn useful anymore
 
Alright, Dam talk time, since it could still conceivably swing.

My Heart of Hearts wants the biggest, fanciest God Damn Dam the world has ever seen. I want its majesty to be directly proportionate to the anticipation of its arrival. When diplomats visit Valleyhome, I want them to look on and say, "Damn son, that's one helluva Dam you've got there," and go home, lamenting their lesser, damless kingdoms.

While I switched to the more modest option out of pragmatism, this was before the veekiewagon rode on into town and flipped the vote for [PP] to Infrastructure out the ass, giving us a real hope of getting our wealth situation managed.

For this reason, I am switching back to Ultra!Dam-kun. If this vote wins, it'll guaranteed mean we do not have the actions for something, but we can still pay the wealth costs if we cut from other actions to produce wealth, and I think that'll still be worth it. It's Dam-kun's time to shine. Feature Creep all the way.


[X] [Dam] Make it as big and impressive as possible (2 Wealth and 2 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 3 actions to complete)

[X] [Purity] If slavery is so bad in comparison, maybe even the half-exiles need to be addressed (-1 Stability, the next Patrician, Guild, and Trader quests are all spite quests, all Wealth costs are doubled going forward)

[X] [PP] Skullduggery (+1 Intrigue/turn, -2 Diplo)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x2
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x3
Adhoc vote count started by 8bitBob on Nov 14, 2017 at 2:02 AM, finished with 128687 posts and 104 votes.
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Wiadi said:
A meta-virtuous perspective isn't forbidden from causing good outcomes, just from requiring them as part of morality. Similarly, it's not hedonistic pursuit of the feeling of conforming to virtue, because that is (again) a consequence - correct actions are ends unto themselves, independent of any results, including the tautological result of having performed a correct action. Fundamentally, consequentialist vs. virtue ethics is a question which cannot be resolved through pure reason, because what justifications are valid hinges upon your prior ethical stance. A meta-consequentialist can argue that consequentialist ethics produce maximum good while virtue ethics produce only a feeling of self-satisfaction, but a meta-virtue-ethicist would respond that the argument is entirely moot due to its failure to consider which ethical system is more intrinsically virtuous, and would reject out of hand any consideration of what results they produce as irrelevant.
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I guess what I'm saying is, I can appreciate virtue ethics out of meta-consequentialism, which is a valid and reasonable logic to me, but thorough virtue ethics (ie. first-level and meta-) is just ... freakish and alien to me. I cannot relate to it.

I don't know what to do about the fact that it seems like there's people who either are meta-virtue ethicists or just don't have a meta opinion. Both of our opinions seem to be good=yay, basically, and that should result in relatability, but apparently it's better to collapse from virtue and be replaced than to stand tarnished from vice?

Like, nobody is saying we should not do good things, but it seems like some people are saying we should rather "strive to be good" even if it predictably results in a bad outcome. I don't have an in to that mindset, and it irks me. Again, I can appreciate the meta-consequentialist argument just fine, or the people who say "virtue play is fun". (That's what I meant by virtue-hedonism.) Just not the "plain-virtue" view.
 
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I really hope that reform half exiles will at least slow the hereditary caste system from getting further engrained and developing more eugenicesque ideas..
 
[X] [Purity] If slavery is so bad in comparison, maybe even the half-exiles need to be addressed (-1 Stability, the next Patrician, Guild, and Trader quests are all spite quests, all Wealth costs are doubled going forward)
[X][Dam] Move to the bigger but more useful proposal (1 Wealth and 1 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 2 actions to complete)
[X] [PP] Skullduggery (+1 Intrigue/turn, -2 Diplo)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x2
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x3

I wonder if the urban poor will gain faction strength from this? I mean for one there are going to be a hell of a lot more of them and for another all the ruling classes are being screwed over.
 
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[X] [Purity] The Puritans broke (Lose the Purity trait, possible loss of the prohibition on slavery)
[X] [Purity] Some hypocrisy is acceptable (Greater Justice modified)
[X] [Purity] Look to the heavens for a sign (Random, could be all good results from above options, could be all bad results from above options, likely a mix)
[X] [Purity] While their vigilante violence was wrong, maybe they have a point here (Pride in Acceptance downgraded to Cosmopolitan Acceptance)
 
Raichu1972 said:
Will they?

I'm not sure if reforming the Half Exile practice will free some of the existing Half Exiles, or if it will only apply to the new Half Exiles.
I guess most of the children of Half Exiles will become Urban or Rural Poor, but I'm still not sure how the reforms work specifically.
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Reform will encounter the following scenarios and deal with them:
-Actual criminals are given hard, filthy corrective labor sentences instead of the alternatives of fining, flogging, maiming or disfiguring as is practiced regionally.
--This is right and proper. No reform needed.

-The children of half exiles often become half-exiles.
--Nobody thinks theres anything wrong. It just proves they're spiritually tainted.

-People who have been half exiles are more likely to be criminals.
--Nobody thinks theres anything wrong. It just proves they're spiritually tainted.

-Punishments award unfair and inconsistent terms of half-exile depending on the demand for half exiles and the social status of the offender rather than the severity and circumstances of the crime.
--Injustice. This will be standardized. Let the punishment fit the crime.

-People who have not committed any offense are made half-exile on trumped up charges to meet half exile demand or to further political goals
--Injustice. Let there be greater oversight. Let judges be recused for personal involvement.

-Half-exile terms are not being ended when they should be. Reassessments rarely pass.
--Failure. Hard labor should purify, not grind the taint in. The priests doing the job should study who return to crime and who do not, and set right what had gone wrong.

Ghostdevil said:
Me either

I still don't get why we have to do this NOW, why can't we wait until we mechanized more or at most get within spitting distance of industrialization? That way we can more easily get rid of slavery and not risk our civ for a measure we can't be sure will stick for long
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If we had avoided this decision point, that would be valid. This is why when we built the kilns I pushed to defer the reform, it was not seen, so we had time to work through it.

Once we have seen it and the problem exposed, we had to deal with it. The fundamental pieces which drive the push against slavery are:
-Justice
-Charity
-Purity

It would not be 'easily get rid of slavery'. It'd simply make slavery natural to our civilization. Remember the International Games require that we not be slavers. Once Slavery gets in, the International Games will collapse.

That said, I don't believe the cost boost to be permanent. It should normalize out once we have enough markets(hence stuffing shitloads of infrastructure).

Academia Nut said:
It's something I will have to work out, but at this point I am thinking that it will come from the theological arguments getting out of hand where the commoners can see them, and the ruling classes all attempting to throw each other under the chariot and thus corruption getting exposed to the common folk, who get really mad and in their calls for reforms of things they think might be used to exploit them the ruling classes end up basically attempting to pay them off.

Fundamentally, what this is going to do is to say that the work the half-exiles do has to be compensated as if it were being done by a freeman, to tamp down on the impulse to just find someone the community doesn't like to make them do unpleasant but necessary work. When you can pay your taxes by doing corvee labour hauling manure and get paid in food/coin for the corvee labour you used to do, suddenly the government is covering a whole lot more billable hours in a year and collecting less in direct taxation.
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Hmm, thats a good and simple approach that removes the biggest draw of the abuse.

Once the economy catches up that should even out a lot, but for now we're going to bleed.
DakkaMania said:
So, two questions:

The river we are damming up, is it one the HK are dependant on?

If yes, does the construction process cause issues for their agriculture?

If no, would biggest Dam cause issues?

Just want to make sure we screw them over properly. :V
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It is, it'd hurt their annual floods, but they won't notice for a century or two because we've black soiled the whole river banks with our runoff by now.

pbluekan said:
No. That isn't what he said.

Yes, it's a dickwaving symbol. Its a giant behemoth of a construction. That doesn't make the extra size useless. Specifically, larger and more water is the important thing here. More water volume means several things, most importantly, increased shoreline. This means more space for people to live around the lake and get the benefits of it, from more chinampas to more mills. It also means increased drought resistance. The bigger the dam, the better, frankly.
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Basically, and also, for the canal, the larger and higher the dam the easier and further it is to drive the canal route.
 
[X] [Dam] Make it as big and impressive as possible (2 Wealth and 2 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 3 actions to complete)
[X] [Purity] The Puritans broke (Lose the Purity trait, possible loss of the prohibition on slavery)

I want something to show the world when we inevitably blow up due to this foolishness.
 
[X] [Dam] Move to the bigger but more useful proposal (1 Wealth and 1 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 2 actions to complete)
[X] [Purity] If slavery is so bad in comparison, maybe even the half-exiles need to be addressed (-1 Stability, the next Patrician, Guild, and Trader quests are all spite quests, all Wealth costs are doubled going forward)
[X] [PP] Trade (+1 Wealth/turn)
[X] [PP] Trade (+1 Wealth/turn) x2
[X] [PP] Trade (+1 Wealth/turn) x3
[X] [PP] Trade (+1 Wealth/turn) x4

This seems like an eminently simple solution to a problem that isn't as complicated as it seems.
What's that? We're about to get hit in the face with a bunch more Wealth tax for picking the future looking and moral options? FUCK IT, YOLO WEALTH TIME
 
[X] [Dam] Make it as big and impressive as possible (2 Wealth and 2 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 3 actions to complete)
[X] [Purity] The Puritans broke (Lose the Purity trait, possible loss of the prohibition on slavery)

I'd rather have the bestest dam than reform the half exile system.
 
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These are my predictions as to what eill happen if we abolish the half exile system.

1. The traders will surpress our innovationn
2. The patricians will surpress the urban poor as according to AN the urban poor will be the ones crying for change.
3. A 1-2 loyalty hit to all our subordinates as suddenly everything now gets A LOT more expensive.
4. Civil war as the angry subordinates will move away fron the Ymaryn for their own survival keep in mind that while WE(The central Ymaryn) can afford to abolish the half exiles our subordinates cannot.
 
[X] [Dam] Make it as big and impressive as possible (2 Wealth and 2 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 3 actions to complete)
[X] [Purity] If slavery is so bad in comparison, maybe even the half-exiles need to be addressed (-1 Stability, the next Patrician, Guild, and Trader quests are all spite quests, all Wealth costs are doubled going forward)
[X] [PP] City Support (4 Econ cost for True Cities offset each turn, -1 Tech)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x2
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x3
 
Honestly, if our subordinates take a loyalty hit from this decision I'm going to call shenanigans. The choice has all of its immediate effects listed out, no "???". Our subordinates are probably not going to be directly affected by this reform.
 
Guys if you people refuse to care about what happens to the central ymaryn at the very least care for our subordinates how the fuck are they going to survive if all their actions now cost double wealth?
 
Rakuhn said:
Honestly, if our subordinates take a loyalty hit from this decision I'm going to call shenanigans. The choice has all of its immediate effects listed out, no "???". Our subordinates are probably not going to be directly affected by this reform.
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There are two options.

Either they follow the core in implementing this reform and get hit with the penalties, or they don't follow the core which will eventually cause strife due to differing values.
 
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