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Paths of Civilization

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Sivantic said:
Theoretically it would seriously hit them in the Economy department as all the amazing fertilizer that runs off from our farms would suddenly stop once we are finished building it. Would not last forever, but it is a way we could affect them.

Problem is that the increased costs means we cannot do that anytime soon.
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Not necessarily-remember, we taught our vassals how to make Black Soil and they've been doing so for the past several centuries now, meaning that even with the dam the flow of Black Soil southwards will continue.

...Man, we're nice to the Harmurri.
 
Vote Tally : Original - Paths of Civilization | Page 5125 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 128115-128651]
##### NetTally 1.9.9
Task: Dam
[53][Dam] Move to the bigger but more useful proposal (1 Wealth and 1 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 2 actions to complete)
[36][Dam] Make it as big and impressive as possible (2 Wealth and 2 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 3 actions to complete)
[1][Dam] Use stronger materials, keep as is (1 Wealth and 1 Tech per action added to remaining costs)
[1][Dam] Keep as is
Task: PP
[54][PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn)
[43][PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x2
[38][PP] Skullduggery (+1 Intrigue/turn, -2 Diplo)
[37][PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x3
[25][PP] City Support (4 Econ cost for True Cities offset each turn, -1 Tech)
[16][PP] Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increases Loyalty while active at less than full subordinates)
[10][PP] Defence (+1 significant walls/turn)
[8][PP] Trade (+1 Wealth/turn)
[7][PP] Special: Forestry (+1 Sustainable Forest and -1 Econ Expansion/2 turns)
[5][PP] Diplomacy (+1 Diplo/turn)
[3][PP] Industry (+1 Tech/turn)
[2][PP] Agriculture (+3 Econ, -3 Econ Expansion, -1 Tech/turn)
[2][PP] Expansion (So long as there is land to expand into, +1 Econ Expansion/turn, reduces threshold to produce new provinces the longer active)
[1][PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x4
[1][PP] Patronage (+1 Culture/turn)
[1][PP] Mysticism (+1 Mysticism/turn)
Task: Purity
[68][Purity] If slavery is so bad in comparison, maybe even the half-exiles need to be addressed (-1 Stability, the next Patrician, Guild, and Trader quests are all spite quests, all Wealth costs are doubled going forward)
[20][Purity] The Puritans broke (Lose the Purity trait, possible loss of the prohibition on slavery)
[13][Purity] Some hypocrisy is acceptable (Greater Justice modified)
[12][Purity] Look to the heavens for a sign (Random, could be all good results from above options, could be all bad results from above options, likely a mix)
[11][Purity] While their vigilante violence was wrong, maybe they have a point here (Pride in Acceptance downgraded to Cosmopolitan Acceptance)
Total No. of Voters: 103

Hmm... 103 votes. Might see some more.

17 votes seperate the Dam choice

13 votes separate the Policy choice.

Purity is a 48 vote lead.
 
Wiadi said:
Okay, but the current winning Purity option is winning by a 46-vote margin, so it's still irresponsible to vote for something which we'd only be able to afford if we weren't doing the thing we're obviously going to do. The fact that you would rather we didn't is, ultimately, entirely immaterial.
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Nah, if it burns us down we would gain something more valuable, some fucking patience and caution. Doing things when its good to do so is what I want, ending pseudo-slavery before we can handle the costs, literally right on the tail end of a civilization ending plague and Nomad invasion is the exact opposite of good or patient
 
ctulhuslp said:
Why is damaging Purity a problem?
Why do you consider its xenophobia, which explicitly contradicts Acceptance (actual pillar of society), a pillar?
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As pointed out above, it's more that I consider our anti-slavery stance a pillar. If we were losing purity by deciding that foreigners are actually fine people and we shouldn't be afraid of them, that would be one thing. If we lose it by deciding that maybe some people don't deserve to be treated as people and that there is nothing fundamentally wrong with keeping humans as chattel, that's more of a problem.
 
[X] [Dam] Move to the bigger but more useful proposal (1 Wealth and 1 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 2 actions to complete)
[X] [Purity] The Puritans broke (Lose the Purity trait, possible loss of the prohibition on slavery)
 
Glassware said:
Not necessarily-remember, we taught our vassals how to make Black Soil and they've been doing so for the past several centuries now, meaning that even with the dam the flow of Black Soil southwards will continue.

...Man, we're nice to the Harmurri.
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The past 400 years.

And we can prohibit slavery if we downgrade Pride in Acceptance. But apparently, nobody is considering that.
 
notgreat said:
That's basically going "all the xenophobic parts of Purity were right, do that but less violently"
That is fundamentally the opposite of how we want Purity to evolve.
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I doubt it. The option in question reads:
AN said:
[ ] [Purity] Some hypocrisy is acceptable (Greater Justice modified)
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I think it's far more likely we'd just swap Greater Justice for something closer to For The Greater Good.
 
notgreat said:
That's basically going "all the xenophobic parts of Purity were right, do that but less violently"
That is fundamentally the opposite of how we want Purity to be hunted into extinction.
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FTFY,

seriosuly, WHY RISK TRYING TO EVOLVE IT. Depending on our rolls we could make it a far worse trait, no matter how hard we try to steer it.
Fuck that trait, let it burn to ash and be forgotten as a small black mark on our history.

I REFUSE TO GO FULL ELF, or even worse full DARK ELF, and I mean the bad kind not the edgy misunderstood kind.
 
Ghostdevil said:
Nah, if it burns us down we would gain something more valuable, some fucking patience and caution. Doing things when its good to do so is what I want, ending pseudo-slavery before we can handle the costs, literally right on the tail end of a civilization ending plague and Nomad invasion is the exact opposite of good or patient
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Okay but people have memories. If we take the most expensive Dam option and the current Purity vote wins, and then we collapse and you go "look, see, reforming the half-exiles was a mistake and we should be more patient and cautious in future," then the response is gonna be "you voted for the expensive Dam option, this is your fault too, and maybe the takeaway should be that megaprojects are bad instead." Like...if you want Ymar to burn for our hubris, then fine, but make sure it's only the right hubris that's burning it down. Sabotaging things by taking other bad choices removes all your credibility on that front.
Susano said:
CA is still a pretty good state of affairs. A simple downgrade there would still be okay, I guess.

As long as we don't touch the Justice trait line...
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That vote also doesn't do anything about Purity, though, which means those gradual erosions will just keep happening. We won't be able to stop it without facing another choice like this, since neither Purity nor the half-exile system will be getting fixed, and the Purity proponents will probably be smart enough to just keep pressing the "give us concessions" button.
 
The thing about dick waving is that it prevents anyone else from building one of these things, which I like.

Also the potential narrative of 'so wait, the Ymaryn just stopped their pseudo-slavery thing that's been helping support their economy for however many millennia by this point ... and they still managed to build this gigantic fucking dam? The fuck, [Intellectual] [Seed]?' Is funny to me.
 
Janadus said:
I doubt it. The option in question reads:

I think it's far more likely we'd just swap Greater Justice for something closer to For The Greater Good.
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He said the Pride in Acceptance downgrade which is the one I'm most against.

I don't like the Greater Justice modification since I don't like hypocrisy, but that's certainly the option I consider the safest. I just think the benefits of going all in are worth it despite the dangers, but I'm a risk-taker like that. Losing Enforce Justice would hurt our Stability and PSN capabilities quite a bit though, which would be unfortunate.
soulcake said:
seriosuly, WHY RISK TRYING TO EVOLVE IT. Depending on our rolls we could make it a far worse trait, no matter how hard we try to steer it.
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Because we can either risk slavery or one of the other sucky options, or we can go all in on urbanization to pay for the half-exile costs. And the only way to survive urbanization at that level is with a ton of baths and a purity value.

We could've just done a crackdown on the violence (my vote), but people wanted to debate it out. Right now our Slavery prohibition is based on it dirtying your soul. Remove that and we have very little reason to not just get slavery back in.
 
Wiadi said:
Okay but people have memories. If we take the most expensive Dam option and the current Purity vote wins, and then we collapse and you go "look, see, reforming the half-exiles was a mistake and we should be more patient and cautious in future," then the response is gonna be "you voted for the expensive Dam option, this is your fault too, and maybe the takeaway should be that megaprojects are bad instead." Like...if you want Ymar to burn for our hubris, then fine, but make sure it's only the right hubris that's burning it down. Sabotaging things by taking other bad choices removes all your credibility on that front.
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I actually haven't voted for the most expensive damn,
Even if I did its because I voted for a not dumb option that doesn't put us into a corner that we have to crawl out from while AN plans more and more fires for us to face
 
Xantalos said:
The thing about dick waving is that it prevents anyone else from building one of these things, which I like.

Also the potential narrative of 'so wait, the Ymaryn just stopped their pseudo-slavery thing that's been helping support their economy for however many millennia by this point ... and they still managed to build this gigantic fucking dam? The fuck, [Intellectual] [Seed]?' Is funny to me.
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It's more likely we'll blow up, which at this point I think is going to happen anyway.
 
SpeckofStardust said:
It's more likely we'll blow up, which at this point I think is going to happen anyway.
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Eh, we've been flirting with disaster this entire quest - one of the first moral dilemmas we had as a people was the fact that we nearly died out because we kept on being charitable during a hugeass drought. If we explode due to backlash from trying to pseudo-abolish slavery, then I'd consider it a worthy death, if one best avoided.
 
Xantalos said:
Eh, we've been flirting with disaster this entire quest - one of the first moral dilemmas we had as a people was the fact that we nearly died out because we kept on being charitable during a hugeass drought. If we explode due to backlash from trying to pseudo-abolish slavery, then I'd consider it a worthy death, if one best avoided.
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Yea but that wasn't that bad, the game just started and now were flirting with destroying what we've spent months on just to satisfy moral obligations when we could wait a little longer to cure it
 
Xantalos said:
Eh, we've been flirting with disaster this entire quest - one of the first moral dilemmas we had as a people was the fact that we nearly died out because we kept on being charitable during a hugeass drought. If we explode due to backlash from trying to pseudo-abolish slavery, then I'd consider it a worthy death, if one best avoided.
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I am more worried about the whole stab lost and losing eco cause of it, in addation to the fact that the wealth reserves are going to go low enough to cause the Traders to panic, not to mention the likely war that is up and coming.
 
Ghostdevil said:
Yea but that wasn't that bad, the game just started and now were flirting with destroying what we've spent months on just to satisfy moral obligations when we could wait a little longer to cure it
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The problem with waiting for another opportunity is that we don't get to pick when that happens. It was only the blend of circumstances right now that led to the situation of maybe reforming the half-exiles. If we wait for next time, it could be potentially centuries until an opportunity of this type pops up again, and when it does it'll be in an unfavourable situation as well, I guarantee it. We either bite the bullet now, or we might as well never do so.
 
Xantalos said:
The problem with waiting for another opportunity is that we don't get to pick when that happens. It was only the blend of circumstances right now that led to the situation of maybe reforming the half-exiles. If we wait for next time, it could be potentially centuries until an opportunity of this type pops up again, and when it does it'll be in an unfavourable situation as well, I guarantee it. We either bite the bullet now, or we might as well never do so.
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So either moral bullet or DAM bullet?
 
Xantalos said:
The problem with waiting for another opportunity is that we don't get to pick when that happens. It was only the blend of circumstances right now that led to the situation of maybe reforming the half-exiles. If we wait for next time, it could be potentially centuries until an opportunity of this type pops up again, and when it does it'll be in an unfavourable situation as well, I guarantee it. We either bite the bullet now, or we might as well never do so.
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That'd be fine, we would be VASTLY more prepared for it than now, we have almost nothing going right now that makes this a good idea, we literally just got out of a super fire and another fire is on the way let alone the fire this will cause, The future means were more advanced and our government is better, nevermind that Slavery has a shelf life if we remain a First World Country
 
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