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Paths of Civilization

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Not as exciting as i had thought, maybe it will boil next turn? :3

[X] [Dam] Use stronger materials, keep as is (1 Wealth and 1 Tech per action added to remaining costs)
[X] [Dam] Move to the bigger but more useful proposal (1 Wealth and 1 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 2 actions to complete)
[X] [Purity] While their vigilante violence was wrong, maybe they have a point here (Pride in Acceptance downgraded to Cosmopolitan Acceptance)
[X] [Purity] If slavery is so bad in comparison, maybe even the half-exiles need to be addressed (-1 Stability, the next Patrician, Guild, and Trader quests are all spite quests, all Wealth costs are doubled going forward)
[X] [Purity] Look to the heavens for a sign (Random, could be all good results from above options, could be all bad results from above options, likely a mix)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn)
[X] [PP] Defence (+1 significant walls/turn)
[X] [PP] Special: Forestry (+1 Sustainable Forest and -1 Econ Expansion/2 turns)
[X] [PP] Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increases Loyalty while active at less than full subordinates)
 
Here are the things that make the Ymaryn great right now:
  • Everyone is fed. In other societies, the poor starve. In ours, they are given food and work. We've had all of one famine in several CENTURIES.
  • Everyone is welcome. While we don't always take the initiative to specifically draw people in, those who do make it to our borders are given a chance to join us in the great majority of cases.
  • We promote peace. Certainly, we are not perfect in this respect, and have started wars on our own once or twice. However, under us, the Lowlands have ceased their infighting. Having PSN means that we are less likely to fight offensive wars then other polities, and Joyous Symphony makes us willing to end the wars we do fight more quickly. The International Games give us the ability to form peaceful and lasting ties with our neighbors. All in all, the land we reside in is far more peaceful under us than it would be under someone else.
  • We preserve the environment. We protect our land from soil erosion, from deforestation, and from blight.
  • We don't trade in slaves. Yes, we have the half-exiles, which are close to being a slave caste. HOWEVER, the broader institution of slavery consists or raiding nearby villages and taking their people as slaves. We don't do that, or support it. Even if it can be argued that we HAVE slaves, the fact that we don't TRADE in them makes a hell of a difference.
  • We create progress. The Artisan Games means that we are at the forefront of technological progress, driving the Ymaryn towards the eventual gains that progress will bring - higher standards of living and greater equality among them.
Yes, we have our problems, like all civilizations do. But I think that our civilization has enough virtue that it is worth preserving as it is.
 
BlueFlamingWings said:
I actually don't think, despite the factions reactions, that this will lead to major societal upheaval. In a generation or two this will be the new normal.
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I am pretty sure it will. The increased wealth surcharge will kill almost all of our possible Guild Actions aside from building docks and planting cash crops. And cash crops are only peripherally Guild related at all. This essentially rips the beating heart out of our economy. Not to mention that we will be perpetually low on wealth, causing the Guilds to trigger stab losses. Add the spite quests to that and i really wouldn't be surprised if this kills our Guilds in the short run and causes us to fall back on a more rural, agrarian economic system.
 
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Da Boyz said:
So I'd just like to lay out factors which would inhibit the spread of spread of slavery and thus make crushing the Puritans a viable path.

1. We're currently sitting on Religious Authority 9, Stability 2 and Legitimacy 3. Translating stats into the actual situation this means we have incredibly powerful moral guardians, that people feel that things are going well and that our government is viewed as having the right to rule. While @Academia Nut has yet to say if this will have an impact on our odds it does make it likely that the odds are pretty small. Thousands of years of tradition do not simply evaporate overnight and I'm kinda baffled as to how this situation managed to arise from some common whataboutism in the first place.
2. Disseminating slaves throughout the entire empire would take time, at best it would take decades for new slavers to be attracted and for a glut of slaves to be shipped in to every corner of the Empire. While it would again be nice to have AN confirm this it seems likely that the spread of slavery is something we'd be able to take action on.
3. I'd like to reemphasize that this is thousands of years of tradition which would have to go away. "Because the gods say so" has been the cornerstone against slavery since time immemorial. The idea that it would go away quickly is kinda absurd, at worst you'd think it'd only be a few people subtly trying it at first because it would go against the law to do so. While given time this might spread it would start small, and we have ample experience crushing slavers.
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This is wrong.
That we have this vote at all is because the half exiles were all but slaves in all but name for centuries now.
Also take a look to the west - Western People became slavers even before they became Storm People.

So no.
If we do not take a stand now, in this vote, we will become accomplished slavers in a heart beat.
 
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keenscythe said:
The "Mountain" mega-project was basically dick-waving and there was a wonder that was unlocked by it.

Just saying: Dick-Waving and Wonder aren't mutually exclusive.
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That doesn't mean we should try to do it just because it's labeled a wonder, when we will be completely unable to pay for it.
 
[X] [Dam] Move to the bigger but more useful proposal (1 Wealth and 1 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 2 actions to complete)
[X] [Purity] If slavery is so bad in comparison, maybe even the half-exiles need to be addressed (-1 Stability, the next Patrician, Guild, and Trader quests are all spite quests, all Wealth costs are doubled going forward)
 
It'd be funny if instead of just being able to deny two factions due to our traits
The three pissed factions combine together to tell division of power to fuck itself and we get buttfucked...
That'd be just be dandy...
Luckily @Academia Nut isn't that mean :p
 
George said:
Why are people wanting to empower the Traders?
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Balance of power for me mainly, I don't like having any one faction too far down on the totem pole.
They are also our main form of news about other countries and source of spies to steal ideas from other places.

Edited: put fashion instead of faction.
Not that I don't believe in balance of fashion designs as well.
 
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Some predictions, assuming we take the Half-Exile Reform option:
- We will have at least one more hard choice of this form within the next three full turns, where the option is to either undo some of the reform or suffer some sort of other significant cost (75%)
- Our colonies risk breaking off because of this (50%)
- The backlash from this will have us end up having actual slavery within three turns (25%)
 
Ghostdevil said:
It'd be funny if instead of just being able to deny two factions due to our traits
The three pissed factions combine together to tell division of power to fuck itself and we get buttfucked...
That'd be just be dandy...
Luckily @Academia Nut isn't that mean :p
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We are at two stabilty and three legitimacy.
It will not be this easy.

And do think of newly freed half exiles, some numbers thrown around here put them at a quarter of our population.
Do you think they will just stand aside and allow themselves to be enslaved again?

So no, I do not see patricians and guilds reversing this if we are clever about it at all.
 
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Perhaps people can approval vote for the more modest versions of the dam to ensure we are capable of completing it even if we doubled wealth cost? Having possibility of a wonder is great if we can make it happen, but if we are risking traders insanity and stability swing then it's not all that risk worthy.

[] [Dam] Use stronger materials, keep as is (1 Wealth and 1 Tech per action added to remaining costs)
[] [Dam] Move to the bigger but more useful proposal (1 Wealth and 1 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 2 actions to complete)
 
tenchifew said:
We are at two stabilty and three legitimacy.
It will not be this easy.

And do think of newly freed half exiles, some numbers thron around here put them at a quarter of our population.
Do you think they will just stand aside and allow themselves to be enslaved again?

So no, I do not see patricians and guilds reversing this if we are clever about it at all.
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Well for the enslaved again part... that would be a Yes, it wouldn't change anything for the vast majority of the half-exiles, besides I was just saying that as a what if, I doubt it'll happen
 
PrimalShadow said:
Some predictions, assuming we take the Half-Exile Reform option:
- We will have at least one more hard choice of this form within the next three full turns, where the option is to either undo some of the reform or suffer some sort of other significant cost (75%)
- Our colonies risk breaking off because of this (50%)
- The backlash from this will have us end up having actual slavery within three turns (25%)
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And if your predictions had any actual numbers behind them, instead of general fearmongering, one you do every time a hard decision comes up, I would be inclined to listen.

Still, despite all of the doomsaying, the morally corrupt decisions arguably have cost us more so far.

Let's take a look at this - had we actually protecteed the monotheists during the plague, we wouldn't have had all these problems.

So, how expensive did the 2/3 of a point of "saved" stability become?
 
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[X] [Dam] Move to the bigger but more useful proposal (1 Wealth and 1 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 2 actions to complete)
[X] [Purity] If slavery is so bad in comparison, maybe even the half-exiles need to be addressed (-1 Stability, the next Patrician, Guild, and Trader quests are all spite quests, all Wealth costs are doubled going forward)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn)
[X] [PP] City Support (4 Econ cost for True Cities offset each turn, -1 Tech)
[X] [PP] Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increases Loyalty while active at less than full subordinates)
[X] [PP] Trade (+1 Wealth/turn)

A shame that fixing half-exiles is so expensive, but I suppose thats what happens when the only opportunity is so all or nothing. The other choices just cost far too much; fixing values is somewhere between implausibly hard to nigh impossible, and a wild gamble has no attraction.
 
Hi Guys i'm back- holy shit we have concrete and cement?!?! What is going on! Why haven't we made the concrete buildings and walls yet!
Adhoc vote count started by Motoko on Nov 13, 2017 at 6:59 PM, finished with 128384 posts and 61 votes.
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tenchifew said:
And if your predictions had any actual numbers behind them, instead of general fearmongering, one you do every time a hard decision comes up, I would be inclined to listen.
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They're predictions; I'm recording them so that they can be checked in the future. It is a public test of my intuition, not a statement of fact.

tenchifew said:
So, how expensive did the 2/3 of a point of "saved" stability become?
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I stand corrected on that front. Clearly, that value was far more expensive then I had originally bargained on.
 
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