Now, let's actually talk about the rest of the options.
Why isn't anyone going for a show of strength and royal reach by supporting the SP?
Or finishing great hall, for that matter, not to mention the possible synergies between the various options?
I'm not supporting the SP because I don't like them that much, and I want to keep as much distance between them and us as possible so that our colonies don't get tempted.
The Grand Palace Annexes are also winning, and we'll be almost done with them by the time the next turn starts.
 
Ah I see. Adjusted accordingly.
Ah okay I did the math here.

Based on picking the options of:

[] [MP] Spread the Wealth Around (All Subordinates Receive +0-1 Loyalty)
[] [Int] Attempt to tear out these maniacs, root and branch (-2 Intrigue, -1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, -1 RA, ???)
[] [React] Expand Great Hall (2xGreat Hall Annexes)
[] [Ext] Find out more about what the Highlanders are up to (Main Trade Mission)
[] [PSN] Main Expand Econ (-2 Cent + Costs)

Our Econ will be at 31/27 in the main turn, which becomes 27/27 +4 Overflow to Wealth(due to Great Hall eating 4 Econ and the Trade Mission eating 1. Sorry, made a mistake and missed the Trade Mission.). Wealth will be at 16/22 then, due to the overflow and the Trade Mission cost. So no martial overflow.

So capped Econ and enough wealth to do what we want. Forests on the other hand leaves us with 17/27 Econ and 12 Wealth in the main turn. Which is tricky to handle around more pony, raise army to pay for march, and warships.
 
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Don't need to build 2 Great Hall annexes next turn.
We already have 1/4, and winning vote is having us build 2 more right now.
So we only need to build one Great Hall Annex next turn.
I direct you to the top of the quote.

That plan was if Scout won. Otherwise we would not have the Martial to do Warships and the March
Well your econ math is wrong since it does not include Poppies from what I can see.

Or you are including the incomes before you should. Not sure which.
It did. I posted the math earlier:
I really do think that we should take the scouts now
[X] [MP] Spread the Wealth Around (All Subordinates Receive +0-1 Loyalty)
[X] [Int] Crack down on the puritans (-2 Intrigue, -1 to +1 Stability, ???)
[X] [Ext] Find out more about what the Highlanders are up to (Main Trade Mission)
[X] [React] Need more scouts (Sec More Blackbirds + Sec More Spiritbonded)
[X] [PSN] Main Plant Poppies (-2 Cent + Costs)

This is what we start with
Economy 24/27 [+5-0]
Wealth 14/22 [+3]

Scouts takes up -1 Econ and -1 Wealth for Blackbirds and -2 Econ and -5 Wealth for Spiritbonded

Economy 21
Wealth 8

Main Trade Mission takes -2 Wealth and -1 Econ, but has a potential pay off of 0-2 Wealth

Economy 20
Wealth 6-8

Plant Poppies gives us an addition 7 Wealth but costs -3 Economy

Economy 17
Wealth 13-15

Then add in the passive influx

Economy 22
Wealth 16-18

Which leaves us plenty of space to create a March, Increase our Navy and build the additional Annexes. Grabbing the Annexes now however, blocks us from being able to create the March and increase the Navy, which means we would have to go without one as the Trader Quest ends next turn and we have no idea how long the pass will be open before the Thunder Horse gobble it up.
 
I direct you to the top of the quote.

That plan was if Scout won. Otherwise we would not have the Martial to do Warships and the March

It did. I posted the math earlier:
Ah.

Then you are applying the Incomes before you should be. When we are choosing our actions in the next update we will have available to spend 17 Econ and 13 Wealth.
 
Unfortunately, the outside definitely had interest in the People. While performance at the Games was relatively lacklustre for several years, they served the purpose of keeping key figures from outside coming to the People and thus keeping the People in the loop about events outside their borders. The Storm People had stumbled in their expansion and were "consolidating", which sounded a bit like they were suppressing rebellious conquered tribes. Freehills had a few years of poor performance in their conquest of the Tin Tribes, before a new general emerged to begin wielding the warriors of the growing 'republic' with devastating adroitness. Trade missions to the Forhuch kept in touch with them, and essentially reassured their terrifyingly competence king that the People just wanted trade.
AN could you please change the noun 'competence' into the adjective 'competent'? I don't like how the noun is immediately after an adverb, and I like to reread the posts sometimes, but this word is just causing my reading speed to drastically slow down.
 
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I'm not supporting the SP because I don't like them that much, and I want to keep as much distance between them and us as possible so that our colonies don't get tempted.
The Grand Palace Annexes are also winning, and we'll be almost done with them by the time the next turn starts.

The SP control east Europe, they are an amalgamation of cultures with a buecratic elite who are culturally close to Ymar.
They have the potential for being great allies and a possible client state, especially if we send them a mighty show of force(which will also do wonders for our international rep and dissuade the western colonies from further dissent).

Not to mention the SP are apparently in good relationship with the foruch (the nomad heritage playing a part id assume), as such having good relations with those two and keeping them stable, means that we don't have to worry about the Steppes anymore.

Lastly, helping out the foruch is sure to kick start purity into evolution path, the soldiers we send will be exposed to multi layer culture mishmash. They'll have plenty to say once they come back.
Not mention it'll actually tell us how the SP functions, and how's its structured, we know Jack shit about it. We don't even know what slavery model they use, for all that people are indigent about them.
 
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Why isn't anyone going for a show of strength and royal reach by supporting the SP?
For me, I don't want to split our mercenary companies when it is likely that the HK will be attacking either us, or more likely the Harmurri. And due to the games and our King of the Hill status, we are likely to get an Intervention CB, which will push for us to wage war on the HK.

Splitting our martial right now seems like a bad call, though I might just be paranoid.
 
The SP control east Europe, they are an amalgamation of cultures with a buecratic elite who are culturally close to Ymar.
They have the potential for being great allies and a possible client state, especially if we send them a mighty show of force(which will also do wonders for our international rep and dissuade the western colonies from further dissent).

Not to mention the SP are apparently in good relationship with the foruch (the nomad heritage playing a part id assume), as such having good relations with those two and keeping them stable, means that we don't have to worry about the Steppes anymore.

Lastly, helping out the foruch is sure to kick start purity into evolution path, the soldiers we send will be exposed to multi layer culture mishmash. They'll have plenty to say once they come back.
Not mention it'll actually tell us how the SP functions, and how's its structured, we know Jack shit about it. We don't even know what slavery model they use, for all that people are indigent about them.
I don't think that the fact that the Forhuch are buying slaves from the SP means that have a "good relationship", only that they mutually don't want to kill each other, or at least go through the effort that killing each other would require.

We also have no way of managing the SP even if we were to make them a client state, which wouldn't fly without drastically changing our values because we expect our subordinates to follow the same laws as the Ymaryn do, which means that the whole slavery business would be a dealbreaker.

I also think that friendly relations with the SP would actually hinder relations with the colonies, since part of the reason that they are sticking with us is that they want protection in case the SP decide to expand and absorb them.
 
[X][MP] Trade Excitement (+10 Wealth, +1 Stability from Guild demands)
[X][Int] Crack down on the puritans (-2 Intrigue, -1 to +1 Stability, ???)
[X][React] Expand Great Hall (2xGreat Hall Annexes)
[X][Ext] Find out more about what the Highlanders are up to (Main Trade Mission)
[X][PSN] Main Expand Econ (-2 Cent + Costs)

Since it seems my questions won't be answered, just gonna assume we get the city passives immediately and go for the Martial Overflow. Also assuming we need to manually unhook the mercs.

[] [Merc] Remove Red Banner Company and Dragon Banner from main budget.

Only really need to remove 1, but removing both is a lot safer.

edit: Questions were answered, passives are in but merc removal is automatic.
 
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I assume you're okay with the Purity trait, and all the negative things involved with it?
I agree with your argument about how cracking down won't actually change the underlying belief system of the Puritans, but I don't understand why someone would want to keep a trait that's so narratively shitty.

I actually don't want Purity, I screwed up my vote. It's fixed now.

To deal with the underlying issue I want to try to open up a value slot to keep division of power, or merge it with our greater justice trait to ensure the lawmen and judges are different people than, and unrelated to, the local governors, and are rotated around once every five-ten years.

So you're going to let this opportunity slip by? I mean, adopting Division of Power is great and all, but it's going to be a generation too late in order to deal with the ongoing problems. The Puritans are just going to fester, even if their more egregious violations are punished, if we don't strike while the iron is hot.

Because keep in mind, the puritans are precisely that.

The Puritans are also murderers. Their branch of the faith isn't one that's going to go anywhere productive, they're beating prostitutes, Half-Exiles, merchants and shipbuilders. The Puritains are violent and xenophobic. They've broken the laws of the land with their approach to doctrine. If they continue that path, they are going to fester and become an ever-increasing major problem. You even go on and mention the Kharjiti which emphasizes how terrible an idea Puritanism is. The Kharjiti were so quick declaring everyone around them enemies of the faith that they got themselves violently wiped out. Kharjiti doctrine died under violent jackboots because they radicalized themselves into something so extreme that it couldn't co-exist with anything except itself.

You don't want simple gut feelings and exclusionary practices when it comes to culture and faith. Those will lead to bad places. That's how Europe got the witch hunts, how the Kharjiti arose, and just the general mess that fundamentalism has brought all over the world.

If there is anything valuable in Purity, then that will be picked up in the debates. We've been extremely good about debating anything religiously and taking religious advances from the opposite side. If we win or if we lose, the more adapted theological innovation will be preserved. If you truly believe that Puritanism is a valuable theological innovation, you're going to want to Root Them Out. That cracks down on the violent offenders and immediately brings the issue to debate. If we don't debate Puritanism, then it's just going to fester like every other fundamentalist movement and become increasingly radical and irrational. Allowing violent ideas to prosper without intervening to counter them will just serve as a hotbed for further violence.
 
I don't think that the fact that the Forhuch are buying slaves from the SP means that have a "good relationship", only that they mutually don't want to kill each other, or at least go through the effort that killing each other would require.

We also have no way of managing the SP even if we were to make them a client state, which wouldn't fly without drastically changing our values because we expect our subordinates to follow the same laws as the Ymaryn do, which means that the whole slavery business would be a dealbreaker.

I also think that friendly relations with the SP would actually hinder relations with the colonies, since part of the reason that they are sticking with us is that they want protection in case the SP decide to expand and absorb them.

Er, the point of client states is that you don't manage them nor interfere with thier internal workings. Thyre basically glorified preferential trade partners who are bound to provide support for any foreign venture or war.

It's colonies and vassals that require a degree of control, clients and protectorates serve a different purpose.
 
Er, the point of client states is that you don't manage them nor interfere with thier internal workings. Thyre basically glorified preferential trade partners who are bound to provide support for any foreign venture or war.

It's colonies and vassals that require a degree of control, clients and protectorates serve a different purpose.
I don't think that such a concept has been invented yet, at least for the Ymaryn.
The closest thing I can think of is a Games Participant, in that we don't control them but also get an obligation to assist them in war, which depending on the relationship could also work both ways.
 
Ah.

Then you are applying the Incomes before you should be. When we are choosing our actions in the next update we will have available to spend 17 Econ and 13 Wealth.
Okay.

My point of Scout allowing us to grab all the things still stands. Grabbing it instead of the Annexes allows us to grab both the March, the Trader Quest, the Annexes and the Priest Quest. Leaves our Policy with less to work with, but hardly the first or that bad since we are taking care of most of our assignments.

Do you disagree?
 
[X] [MP] Spread the Wealth Around (All Subordinates Receive +0-1 Loyalty)
[X] [MP] Royal Investment (+1-2 Free Progress to Dam Project)

[X] [PSN] Main Expand Econ (-2 Cent + Costs)
[X] [PSN] Main Plant Poppies (-2 Cent + Costs)

[X] [Int] Attempt to tear out these maniacs, root and branch (-2 Intrigue, -1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, -1 RA, ???)

[X] [React] Need more scouts (Sec More Blackbirds + Sec More Spiritbonded)
[X] [React] Farm (Main Expand Econ, cannot take with switching to Mass Levy)

[X] [Ext] Stay home, farm (Main Expand Econ)
[X] [Ext] Keep sending treasure to the Forhuch(Main Targeted Salt Gift)

Secondary Expand Econs give +6 econ now. Mains are +12.
Holy fucking Crow that's absurd :o

Yo @BungieONI @Sivantic and other folks who actually grok the mechanics: what would happen if *all three* of the Main Expand Econ votes won?

[X] [Merc] Remove Red Banner Company and Dragon Banner from main budget.
Adhoc vote count started by OliWhail on Nov 8, 2017 at 11:51 PM, finished with 126971 posts and 63 votes.

Adhoc vote count started by OliWhail on Nov 9, 2017 at 12:08 AM, finished with 126979 posts and 64 votes.
 
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I would strongly recommend [PSN] Main Expand Econ. So long as we also take [MP] Trade Excitement, we overflow and basically instantly fix our Martial problems. It doesn't overflow by a ton, but it is enough to get us to a reasonably safe value. Forests would certainly be nice, but we still have an acceptable buffer and so it's not time-critical. (we will need more Forests soon though, the buffer is running low)

Oh and btw, here's my current plan for next turn (assuming we get the overflow into martial)

[Main] Great Dam
[Secondary] Palace Annex - Great Hall
[Secondary] Proclaim Glory (Assuming we lose Legitimacy from the [Int] action. If not, can be filled with something else)
[Secondary] Found March - Spirit Channel
[Secondary] Build Roads
[Secondary] Expand Forests
[Guild] Plant Poppies
[Guild] More Warships
[Guild Secondary] Build Porcelain Works

Dam - required
Annex - this'll get us the government upgrade, which should be very nice.
Proclaim Glory - get us back to max legitimacy and stability.
March - we need them to be developed, and we're like a century away from a massive horse archer nomad attack. If we don't plant them now, they won't be fortified enough to survive the nomads.
Roads+Forests- both of these need work. Could certainly drop one of them for an x2 in the other, but they need to get done.

Poppies - generate Wealth, activate more cities, and get Leading in another trade good
Warships - complete the quest and make sure Freehills can't push us around
Porcelain - aim for another Leading, don't spend any forests since it's a secondary

This also leaves a lot of stats available for the province actions, so they should do some nice things as well.

Yo @BungieONI @Sivantic and other folks who actually grok the mechanics: what would happen if *all three* of the Main Expand Econ votes won?
Bad things, unknown exactly what. We'd get massive overcrowding from negative Econ Expansion, and we've never actually hit overcrowding so we don't know exactly beyond losing most of the benefits and sometimes getting really bad rates on the exchange of econ -> EE.
 
So you're going to let this opportunity slip by? I mean, adopting Division of Power is great and all, but it's going to be a generation too late in order to deal with the ongoing problems. The Puritans are just going to fester, even if their more egregious violations are punished, if we don't strike while the iron is hot.
I didn't say or mean that, and as we're not getting an either or option it isn't relevant.
 
I actually don't want Purity, I screwed up my vote. It's fixed now.



So you're going to let this opportunity slip by? I mean, adopting Division of Power is great and all, but it's going to be a generation too late in order to deal with the ongoing problems. The Puritans are just going to fester, even if their more egregious violations are punished, if we don't strike while the iron is hot.



The Puritans are also murderers. Their branch of the faith isn't one that's going to go anywhere productive, they're beating prostitutes, Half-Exiles, merchants and shipbuilders. The Puritains are violent and xenophobic. They've broken the laws of the land with their approach to doctrine. If they continue that path, they are going to fester and become an ever-increasing major problem. You even go on and mention the Kharjiti which emphasizes how terrible an idea Puritanism is. The Kharjiti were so quick declaring everyone around them enemies of the faith that they got themselves violently wiped out. Kharjiti doctrine died under violent jackboots because they radicalized themselves into something so extreme that it couldn't co-exist with anything except itself.

You don't want simple gut feelings and exclusionary practices when it comes to culture and faith. Those will lead to bad places. That's how Europe got the witch hunts, how the Kharjiti arose, and just the general mess that fundamentalism has brought all over the world.

If there is anything valuable in Purity, then that will be picked up in the debates. We've been extremely good about debating anything religiously and taking religious advances from the opposite side. If we win or if we lose, the more adapted theological innovation will be preserved. If you truly believe that Puritanism is a valuable theological innovation, you're going to want to Root Them Out. That cracks down on the violent offenders and immediately brings the issue to debate. If we don't debate Puritanism, then it's just going to fester like every other fundamentalist movement and become increasingly radical and irrational. Allowing violent ideas to prosper without intervening to counter them will just serve as a hotbed for further violence.

Not quite, the khawarij live still to this day (as the ibadis). And they were popular across the social spectrum throughout the empire for half a century. The only times they were targeted for purge, was when they rebelled in the hejaz, and the army was sent with orders to leave no rebel alive.
But even then the doctrine itself survived and continued to be a threat to the crown.
It didn't "die" suddenly via a purge. No, it faded away year by year as what they preached against became increasingly accepted and idolised.
And the entire debacle strengthend the new doctrines who now had experience with dealing with puritan Schismatics.

As for witch hunts, not sure what you mean there, the European witch hunts suffered no initial crack downs nor where they unpopular, quite the opposite, the legal structures themselves encouraged the practice, it took a good while for the central and north Europeans to crack down on it precisely due to the fact that the public and the ruling elites themselvs where in favour of it, it took a social and cultural shift for the practice to be held in low regards. (what with all the puritan fervour courtesy of the reformation)

And lastly, fundemntalists are as dangerous as the fundamentals they hold to. And they are anything but irrational, quite the opposite actually. They would be incapable of holding ground against fellow theologians if they were bereft or rationale.


And never underestimate exclusionary practices, there's a reason empires throughout history used them. Hell, entire regions were converted by use of exclusion and financial incentives.
Barring people from the upper echolons of society, and making it unprofitable to to profess certain doctrines, can do wonders for changing the doctrine involved.

Am not saying purging the heretic doesn't have its uses. It most certainly does, but as was the case in history, it's something that is done after all the softish steps have been taken and the heresy clearly defined, as what's left after is the hardcore few who are both geographically confined and socially isolated.
 
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I would strongly recommend [PSN] Main Expand Econ. So long as we also take [MP] Trade Excitement, we overflow and basically instantly fix our Martial problems. It doesn't overflow by a ton, but it is enough to get us to a reasonably safe value. Forests would certainly be nice, but we still have an acceptable buffer and so it's not time-critical. (we will need more Forests soon though, the buffer is running low)

Oh and btw, here's my current plan for next turn (assuming we get the overflow into martial)

[Main] Great Dam
[Secondary] Palace Annex - Great Hall
[Secondary] Proclaim Glory (Assuming we lose Legitimacy from the [Int] action. If not, can be filled with something else)
[Secondary] Found March - Spirit Channel
[Secondary] Build Roads
[Secondary] Expand Forests
[Guild] Plant Poppies
[Guild] More Warships
[Guild Secondary] Build Porcelain Works

Dam - required
Annex - this'll get us the government upgrade, which should be very nice.
Proclaim Glory - get us back to max legitimacy and stability.
March - we need them to be developed, and we're like a century away from a massive horse archer nomad attack. If we don't plant them now, they won't be fortified enough to survive the nomads.
Roads+Forests- both of these need work. Could certainly drop one of them for an x2 in the other, but they need to get done.

Poppies - generate Wealth, activate more cities, and get Leading in another trade good
Warships - complete the quest and make sure Freehills can't push us around
Porcelain - aim for another Leading, don't spend any forests since it's a secondary

This also leaves a lot of stats available for the province actions, so they should do some nice things as well.


Bad things, unknown exactly what. We'd get massive overcrowding from negative Econ Expansion, and we've never actually hit overcrowding so we don't know exactly beyond losing most of the benefits and sometimes getting really bad rates on the exchange of econ -> EE.
I think we should switch to MP support, since we need to build more megaprojects after Dam.
 
Yo @BungieONI @Sivantic and other folks who actually grok the mechanics: what would happen if *all three* of the Main Expand Econ votes won?

Bad things. It would utterly screw us and probably cause a military crisis. Our stats would overflow to Martial and that means we have a lot of bored warriors sitting around. Combined with the ongoing Puritan violence, it's likely to spawn some sort of religious conflict. Our cities would become so overcrowded that would create a crisis all on it's own as well. Our current limit is -6, 3 [Main] Expand Econ would take us to -16. This means it would be virtually impossible for us to generate more Econ and we would likely be looking at an unavoidable famine in 1-2 turns.

Our civilization would almost certainly collapse.
 
Now, let's actually talk about the rest of the options.
Why isn't anyone going for a show of strength and royal reach by supporting the SP?
Or finishing great hall, for that matter, not to mention the possible synergies between the various options?
The Storm People are a threat due to their assimilation of Ymaryn technologies. We sure as hell don't want them strengthened.

Great Hall is something to consider, but with the HK going all crusade on their neighbours, calling up more troops might be more sensible.
 
Bad things. It would utterly screw us and probably cause a military crisis. Our stats would overflow to Martial and that means we have a lot of bored warriors sitting around. Combined with the ongoing Puritan violence, it's likely to spawn some sort of religious conflict. Our cities would become so overcrowded that would create a crisis all on it's own as well. Our current limit is -6, 3 [Main] Expand Econ would take us to -16. This means it would be virtually impossible for us to generate more Econ and we would likely be looking at an unavoidable famine in 1-2 turns.

Our civilization would almost certainly collapse.
To be fair, that could easily be solved by paying our Mercenary Companies again.

Still pretty bad though.
 
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