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Paths of Civilization

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8bitBob said:
See my edit. It's actually -0 tech now due to our refunds from Governor's Palaces. Assuming I haven't missed something.
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And see my edit. Even with that reducing the stats by yet another 2, we'd still need that plus 10 wealth. Here, the remathening.

Academia Nut said:
General
Diplomacy 25/27 [+6/2]
-Intrigue 5 [+0]
Economy 24/27 [+5-0]
-Sustainable Forests 30{37}/34
-Econ Expansion 14 [+0-5] [Overcrowding Min: -5]
Martial 7/37 {35/39}
-Light Cavalry 3
Naval 1
Wealth 14/22 [+3]
+3 Salt&Gold
+3/2 = 1.5 Strategic
+3/2 = 1.5 Luxury
+3 Markets
-0 Units
-6 Maintenance
Total: +3

Cultural
Culture 27/27 [+4]
Mysticism 27/27 (+2) [+3]
Tech 27/27 (+6) [+1-1]
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Diplomacy +2
Econ +3
Wealth +8
Main Trade Mission +2
Great Hall Annexes +8
Total Stats needed to overflow into Martial= 23
Refund/Banked Stats 8
How many stats we need to generate assuming leading react and diplo votes win= 15

Expand Econ only gets us 12, we still need 4 more (we need at least 1 for martial) even if we get a full tech refund immediately.
 
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Janadus said:
Problem is that it's one or zero Loyalty.

If it was just flat one Loyalty, I'd consider it, but given that there's a chance it gives no Loyalty at all, it's not worth the risk. Trade Excitement gives us 10 Wealth, which we definitely want, and extra Stability, which will be useful while dealing with our religious issues. If we don't care for extra Wealth, then the Royal Investment megaproject acceleration is also extremely useful.

There are just better options with better odds this time around, in my opinion.
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It gives a chance of +1 Loyalty to all our subordinates

Look at our list of subordininates

Periphery States (13/14+6) (Loyalty [L], Dependence [D], Effectiveness [E])
Heaven's Hawks (March) - Eliminates raids from the north-east, can provide military advances and supports the Stallion Tribes (L:5/5, D: 2/5)
Western Wall (Colony) - Expands to produce new provinces and find new resources, and can take be brought into wars to the north and west (L: 3/5, D: 1/5)
Greenshore Colony (Colony) - Settles the territory on the west coast of the sea (L: 2/5, D: 2/5)
Tinriver Colony (Colony) - Settles the territory on the south-west coast of the sea (L: 2/5, D: 2/5)
Txolla (Vassal-Colony) - Foreign territory under your control, follows you in war but has own agenda, restricted to expansion through settlement (L: 5/5, D: 2/5)
Thunder Horse (Vassal) - Foreign territory under your control, follows you in war but has own agenda (L: 5/5, D: 5/5)
Amber Road (Trading Post) - Increases trade power for all Far Northern Tribe products, provides a market for an extra saltern (L: 5/5, D: 2/4)
Redshore (Free City) - Eliminates True City admin and reduces Econ upkeep penalties (Trouble: 0/5)
Redhills (Free City) - Eliminates True City admin and reduces Econ upkeep penalties (Trouble: 0/5)
Valleyguard (Free City) - Eliminates True City admin and reduces Econ upkeep penalties (Trouble: 0/5)
Red Banner Company (Mercenary Company) - Can be hired to other kingdoms for wealth, or maintained to boost Martial capacity (L: 3/5, E: 7/10)
Dragon Banner (Mercenary Company) - Can be hired to other kingdoms for wealth, or maintained to boost Martial capacity (L: 4/5, E: 8/10)
Blood Rain Banner Company (Mercenary Company) - Can be hired to other kingdoms for wealth, or maintained to boost Martial capacity (L: 3/5, E: 5/10)

That is six different subordinates that it can increase Loyalty from and we really need to raise. That is potentially an increase of +6 Loyalty. That is hardly nothing at all.

Considering we are already at Stability 3, we are already doing really well with the stat and it does not need additional attention.
 
[X] [Int] Attempt to tear out these maniacs, root and branch (-2 Intrigue, -1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, -1 RA, ???)
AN's clarification has eased my worries
 
[X] [Int] Attempt to tear out these maniacs, root and branch (-2 Intrigue, -1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, -1 RA, ???)
 
Sivantic said:
That is six different subordinates that it can increase Loyalty from and we really need to raise. That is potentially an increase of +6 Loyalty. That is hardly nothing at all.
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I am not saying it's nothing. I'm saying the rewards are uncertain.

If all the loyalty boosts go to the mercs and our colonies get none, for example, then it's almost a wasted action, because the mercenaries will start singing a very different tune once we start paying them properly.

Considering we are already at Stability 3, we are already doing really well with the stat and it does not need additional attention.
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We are headed into a multinational crisis and a religious crisis, and we are dropping Stability this turn. It does not need immediate attention, but playing safe with Stability is always a good idea if you see trouble on the horizon.
 
Martial 7/37 {35/39}
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As per usual, our martial is too high or too low. More holy order reaction would put us at the cap, which is possible trigger stuff when we are doing religious things. The Adm/Myt hero king is kicking the bucket this turn i think?

[] [React] Need more scouts (Sec More Blackbirds + Sec More Spiritbonded)

More Blackbirds - Elite scouts and woodsmen, the Blackbirds are a potent force, if not exactly mainline fighters. More of them could prove useful
* S: -1 Econ, -1 Mysticism, -1 Wealth, +2 Martial, +1 Culture, many more Blackbirds, additional effects
More Spiritbonded - Those who are one with their horses possess remarkably combat capacities
*S: -2 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -5 Wealth, +2 Martial, +1 Culture, +1 Light Cavalry
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Edit: you saw nothing!
 
George said:
Ehh, you can discuss things that suck without hate or incivility. You just have to make a conscious choice about how you're going to conduct yourself.
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Hey at least it matches Real Life... well kind of, less Bullshit and a lot less shit flinging... and our competence is a lot higher... but that's more because AN is extremely forgiving
 
BungieONI said:
Actually it does in my reading of what he said.



"Major puritan priests" and "while aggressively politically debating and isolating the root philosophies" sounds like a religious debate, because our priests are not entirely disconnected from our politics and this is a religiously based trait and ideal. The Puritan's focus is on foreigners in a lot of places, though not all, so the debates will cover a lot of that you are correct.


Thanks for asking what Cracking Down consists of.
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Cracking down is stopping the murders. It, of course, does nothing about the philosophy that spawned the murderers. That's what root and branch consists of, doing everything we can jettison the Purity trait. It is very much a time limited opportunity coming from the issues dealt with by our mystic hero king, unless we get another mystic hero king, and by then the trait will be further entrenched.

We must not allow this chance to pass us by.
 
065tdsa said:
Cracking down is stopping the murders. It, of course, does nothing about the philosophy that spawned the murderers. That's what root and branch consists of, doing everything we can jettison the Purity trait. It is very much a time limited opportunity coming from the issues dealt with by our mystic hero king, unless we get another mystic hero king, and by then the trait will be further entrenched.

We must not allow this chance to pass us by.
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My point is that even though AN says Root and Branch has debates in it, that has no bearing on whether or not Crack Down does. It is an assumption, a reasonable one mind, that it does not. I'm waiting on AN's clarification one way or the other as several people have asked what crack down entails, before I get further involved in this discussion.
 
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BungieONI said:
My point is that even though AN says Root and Branch has debates in it, that has no bearing on whether or not Crack Down does. It is an assumption, a reasonable one mind, that it does not.
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Even then, I have to imagine that Root and Branch will involve far more in depth and strenuous discussion about the nature of Purity than just Cracking Down will.
I personally dislike Purity, and thus encourage the action that will take more strenuous measures to get rid of, or at least temper it to be less shitty, since Crack Down seems to be more about stopping the violence of the Puritans than debating the use of the entire ideology.
 
BungieONI said:
My point is that even though AN says Root and Branch has debates in it, that has no bearing on whether or not Crack Down does. It is an assumption, a reasonable one mind, that it does not. I'm waiting on AN's clarification one way or the other as several people have asked what crack down entails, before I get further involved in this discussion.
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Why would it. Crack down isn't about the philosophy, it's about the crimes. We don't debate whether murder is a crime. Even if it did, they'd be less effective by the nature of the action.

AN said explicitly when asked about removing the purity trait that to remove purity we'd need to take costly actions to RA and legitimacy. Root and branch costs this things, crack down does not.
 
SpeckofStardust said:
It could also strengthen the trait. After all were getting rid of that which is 'unclean' right?
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Eh, not really, not unless you stretch it's meaning pretty far.

The debates are focused on what would be 'spiritually pure'. To the Puritans, only the Ymaryn and their religion allow one to be pure. To the mainstream, outsiders can be pure as well.

Also, one thing to keep in mind about the Puritans is that they are apparently sabotaging our innovations in shipbuilding.
Academia Nut said:
as well as seeming to go after rumours of impiety among the shipbuilding artisans more often than in other occupations.
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We really don't want these guys around.
 
SpeckofStardust said:
It could also strengthen the trait. After all were getting rid of that which is 'unclean' right?
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What are you talking about?
Root and Branch in no way mentions the Puritans being "unclean", and the justification of them being inherently lesser is never used in the option.
The King thinks that the Puritans have a flawed ideology, not that they are a lesser people.

AN himself said that the option is not intended to be a purge or anything of the sort, but instead an isolation and discussion of the Philosophy of Purity itself.
 
BungieONI said:
My point is that even though AN says Root and Branch has debates in it, that has no bearing on whether or not Crack Down does. It is an assumption, a reasonable one mind, that it does not. I'm waiting on AN's clarification one way or the other as several people have asked what crack down entails, before I get further involved in this discussion.
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I will not discourage you for waiting for clarification. I even applaud it and wish more people would wait for more info before voting.

Instead, I merely wish to point out that the debates where we challenge a notion set down by the priests is represented by the hit to RA. So, lacking a hit to RA, crackdown almost certainly does not have debates to the same level as the Root Out option. Pay attention to the costs, they are a great indicator of what is actually happening.
 
bluefur87 said:
Instead, I merely wish to point out that the debates where we challenge a notion set down by the priests is represented by the hit to RA. So, lacking a hit to RA, crackdown almost certainly does not have debates to the same level as the Root Out option. Pay attention to the costs, they are a great indicator of what is actually happening.
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It also means that we could lose the debates to the puritans. Which would lead to what exactly?
 
SpeckofStardust said:
It also means that we could lose the debates to the puritans. Which would lead to what exactly?
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I don't think it's very likely we'd lose the debates considering the relative sophistication of the traits involved. Purity is powerful, but it's worked against by some of the most developed and oldest traits in our society. We need the debates to reconcile it with the others by developing it.
 
bluefur87 said:
I will not discourage you for waiting for clarification. I even applaud it and wish more people would wait for more info before voting.

Instead, I merely wish to point out that the debates where we challenge a notion set down by the priests is represented by the hit to RA. So, lacking a hit to RA, crackdown almost certainly does not have debates to the same level as the Root Out option. Pay attention to the costs, they are a great indicator of what is actually happening.
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True. And I usually do since they are one of the few streams of information we actually get, but got caught up.
 
DragonParadox said:
AN specifically told us that Purity is harmed by Legitimacy and RA hits. The "rip out" option is a RA and Legitimacy degrading option that specifically targets people identified as puritans. I can't even imagine how anyone saw that and deduced that it would reinforce purity.

The real danger is that it might harm our justice value through disproportionate response.
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I believe you have the cause and effect backwards there. It is not that lowering RA and Legitimacy hits themselves work against Purity. Rather, it is that the only options that work against Purity's downsides will always cost RA and/or Legitimacy.

Which tells me that just Cracking Down only stops the current outbreak, and does nothing to actually improve matters regarding the downsides of Purity.

As for the vote:

[X] [MP] Trade Excitement (+10 Wealth, +1 Stability from Guild demands)
[X] [Int] Attempt to tear out these maniacs, root and branch (-2 Intrigue, -1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, -1 RA, ???)
[X] [React] Need more scouts (Sec More Blackbirds + Sec More Spiritbonded)
[X] [Ext] Find out more about what the Highlanders are up to (Main Trade Mission)
[X] [PSN] Main Expand Forests (-2 Cent + Costs)

As much as I dislike taking temporary bonuses over the potential for something more longterm, I think taking the wealth bonus is the best choice here. As I do not believe that the Crack Down option does anything to actually prevent Purity from continuing to be a problem long term, there is no real option other than full burn IMO. I'd much rather go into a confrontation with that aspect of society with full ammunition, especially stability.

Additionally, as much as the possibility of gaining loyalty is good, I don't trust the odds on that. No way to tell if it will help anything at all.

Getting more scouts, as has been said, puts us in good shape to take care of several other problems next turn, and in particular I believe that getting Cavalry better quickly is imperative, considering the way nomad's are developing. I fully expect us to need a minimum of 10-15 Cavalry to be able to face the next horde on equal-ish terms, if not higher.

While I do agree the individuals involved in the trade mission are at significant risk, we do need to know what is going on there in better detail. If the whole mission dies and generates no revenue, getting intel on the situation is worth the price.

Finally, I think we can afford to only expand forests, for PSN. The upside of the cashout from the Bazaar is that we can stay ahead on Forests in the meantime, without going broke.
 
SpeckofStardust said:
It also means that we could lose the debates to the puritans. Which would lead to what exactly?
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Losing the debates to Puritans would lead to Purity staying as a widespread belief of the Ymaryn. Something that it already is.

If we do win the debates, however, which I am confident that we will, then it gets rid of a toxic ideology within the People.
The Root and Branch option is basically AN throwing us a bone and letting us get rid of Purity before it becomes too ingrained into the culture of the Ymaryn.

edit: Hero King is dead, but my point about getting rid of Purity still stands.
 
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