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Paths of Civilization

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Raichu1972 said:
I think what Citino is saying is that having seven cities can by itself be problematic.

Remember that the Horsemans plague was only so bad because of all the negative disease roll penalties we got from having so many cities in one area.
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Having much less than seven is going to be basically impossible even if we don't finish the Urban Poor quest. The mechanics naturally trend us towards True Cities, as is intended.

Furthermore, I like cities, and so does most of the thread. They're great, and we're not spamming them nearly as hard as we could be, so I'm not worried about Urbanization for seven cities. They have their drawbacks, but they also have incredible strengths.
 
Citino said:
Also, when did we get concrete? Was that what we got in the last update?
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Legion0047 said:
last turn
E: for starting the dam + tech roll
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A combination of snail cultivation, (maybe) glassworks, and dam actually.
Academia Nut said:
As it was, not only was the site chosen quickly and expediently, but decisions elsewhere began to pay out for the dam quickly. Guild expansion of dye production mostly just expanded the ancient and traditional cultivation fields along the Redshore coast, but the increased number of stone pilings being made allowed for the expansion of the number of stoneworkers with aquatic expertise, who knew they would have a job after the expansion was done and only a few of them would be needed for maintenance. While the increased dye production was merely useful, the dye-alchemists had something more to play around with, and while those experiments did not pan out, a few of the attempts at using various ashes and residue from the glassworks as mordants produced new forms of mortar instead.
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A friendly reminder of why we shouldn't get too obsessed with stats alone.
 
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Reader of all said:
@Academia Nut what is the difference between tearing out the maniacs root and branch and Cracking down on the puritans?
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Cracking down is likely just getting at the people who are blatantly doing shit against the law.

While tearing out root and branch is basically targeting every puritan with the purpose of stamping out the idea of purity as a valid ideal, aka getting rid of purity.
 
Raichu1972 said:
Cracking down is likely just getting at the people who are blatantly doing shit against the law.

While tearing out root and branch is basically targeting every puritan with the purpose of stamping out the idea of purity as a valid ideal, aka getting rid of purity.
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I'm pretty sure it's the difference of whether to go after the ideals behind it or not.

Cracking down is just sending our Blackbirds/other enforcers to go and round up all the priests/supporters who have been assaulting people in the background. It gets rid of the problem for now, but the root cause is still there and can cause problems later.

Root Out is about addressing the issues of purity. Since AN clarified that our priests will be debating it, I think it could either temper Purity if we are lucky, or remove the trait if we aren't.
 
[X] [MP] Trade Excitement (+10 Wealth, +1 Stability from Guild demands)
[X] [Int] Crack down on the puritans (-2 Intrigue, -1 to +1 Stability, ???)
[X] [Ext] Stay home, farm (Main Expand Econ)
[X] [React] Expand Great Hall (2xGreat Hall Annexes)
[X] [PSN] Main Expand Forests (-2 Cent + Costs)

We'll probably need to switch to Megaproject Support next turn, so I am not sure how needed is free progress. HK are in a religious frenzy, same monotheists we helped to suppress before the plague, so I don't think trade mission would do any good.
 
[X] [MP] Spread the Wealth Around (All Subordinates Receive +0-1 Loyalty)
[X] [Int] Crack down on the puritans (-2 Intrigue, -1 to +1 Stability, ???)
[X] [Ext] Find out more about what the Highlanders are up to (Main Trade Mission)
[X] [React] Expand Great Hall (2xGreat Hall Annexes)
[X] [PSN] Main Expand Forests (-2 Cent + Costs)
 
I really do think that we should take the scouts now
[X] [MP] Spread the Wealth Around (All Subordinates Receive +0-1 Loyalty)
[X] [Int] Crack down on the puritans (-2 Intrigue, -1 to +1 Stability, ???)
[X] [Ext] Find out more about what the Highlanders are up to (Main Trade Mission)
[X] [React] Need more scouts (Sec More Blackbirds + Sec More Spiritbonded)
[X] [PSN] Main Plant Poppies (-2 Cent + Costs)

This is what we start with
Economy 24/27 [+5-0]
Wealth 14/22 [+3]

Scouts takes up -1 Econ and -1 Wealth for Blackbirds and -2 Econ and -5 Wealth for Spiritbonded

Economy 21
Wealth 8

Main Trade Mission takes -2 Wealth and -1 Econ, but has a potential pay off of 0-2 Wealth

Economy 20
Wealth 6-8

Plant Poppies gives us an addition 7 Wealth but costs -3 Economy

Economy 17
Wealth 13-15

Then add in the passive influx

Economy 22
Wealth 16-18

Which leaves us plenty of space to create a March, Increase our Navy and build the additional Annexes. Grabbing the Annexes now however, blocks us from being able to create the March and increase the Navy, which means we would have to go without one as the Trader Quest ends next turn and we have no idea how long the pass will be open before the Thunder Horse gobble it up.
 
Glassware said:
Not necessarily. This is happening on the scale of decades, recall, and it's not like we're doing the frenzied investment of labor that kicking implies.
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We are on the most crucial phase of the Dam, ie, the basis of it, and as we can see the actual concrete we will use is probably based on roman formula, so we need saltwater for the bed to become impervious to water, and it takes time for it to become really really hard. After this phase we accelerate the brick and stone, but in this actual moment, the longer the concrete rest the more it hardens, so it's better for us to let it rest for sometime before building atop of it.
 
Citino said:
I'm pretty sure it's the difference of whether to go after the ideals behind it or not.

Cracking down is just sending our Blackbirds/other enforcers to go and round up all the priests/supporters who have been assaulting people in the background. It gets rid of the problem for now, but the root cause is still there and can cause problems later.

Root Out is about addressing the issues of purity. Since AN clarified that our priests will be debating it, I think it could either temper Purity if we are lucky, or remove the trait if we aren't.
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Mechanically one loses RA and legitimacy. This means that actions that would cause people to lose faith in the religion and government will be taking place.

Do you wish to join me in theorizing what kind of values we can get out of this? It's a good way of reflecting on what is actually happening here. Especially if we try and translate it to mechanics.
 
[X] [MP] Trade Excitement (+10 Wealth, +1 Stability from Guild demands)
[X] [Int] Attempt to tear out these maniacs, root and branch (-2 Intrigue, -1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, -1 RA, ???)
[X] [Ext] Find out more about what the Highlanders are up to (Main Trade Mission)
[X] [React] Expand Great Hall (2xGreat Hall Annexes)
[X] [React] Improve Horse Valley Temple (2xSec Temple Actions)
[X] [PSN] Main Expand Forests (-2 Cent + Costs)

Off the cuff vote. PSN subject to change pending stat requirements. Personally, I think rushing the Great Hall isn't necessary, and we kind of want to finish the Priest Quest. Tearing out the maniacs basically has SOLVE PURITY PROBLEMS in gigantic neon print, so picking that. This does prevent us from entering a Golden Age though. Shrug.
 
[X] [MP] Spread the Wealth Around (All Subordinates Receive +0-1 Loyalty)
[X] [Int] Crack down on the puritans (-2 Intrigue, -1 to +1 Stability, ???)
[X] [Ext] Find out more about what the Highlanders are up to (Main Trade Mission)
[X] [React] Need more scouts (Sec More Blackbirds + Sec More Spiritbonded)
[X] [PSN] Main Expand Econ (-2 Cent + Costs)
 
Raichu1972 said:
Cracking down is likely just getting at the people who are blatantly doing shit against the law.

While tearing out root and branch is basically targeting every puritan with the purpose of stamping out the idea of purity as a valid ideal, aka getting rid of purity.
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It is this part that I am having trouble with does that mean we will also target people who have not done anything wrong just because they are puritans? What about the children of the puritans?
Citino said:
Root Out is about addressing the issues of purity. Since AN clarified that our priests will be debating it, I think it could either temper Purity if we are lucky, or remove the trait if we aren't.
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That is not what I am getting from the option though from what I understand we would basically be ostracizing and purging every puritan, even those who had done nothing wrong just because they are puritans. We would not be discussing things we would just label the puritans as maniacs and people to be punished.
 
bluefur87 said:
Mechanically one loses RA and legitimacy. This means that actions that would cause people to lose faith in the religion and government will be taking place.

Do you wish to join me in theorizing what kind of values we can get out of this? It's a good way of reflecting on what is actually happening here. Especially if we try and translate it to mechanics.
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Well, there's a lot of ways that I could see Purity evolving. If we are debating it, I could see us stripping the 'Foreigner' aspect of Purity out of it, since that's what most of the curent Puritans seem to be against right now. So the debates would mostly be focused on removing the idea that others have nothing to contribute to the people.

We also know that AN said that taking the legit and RA hit options would strengthen the culture that supports PiA, so that seems to indicate that debating is a very good idea right now, if we want to keep PiA strong.
 
8bitBob said:
Off the cuff vote. PSN subject to change pending stat requirements. Personally, I think rushing the Great Hall isn't necessary, and we kind of want to finish the Priest Quest. Tearing out the maniacs basically has SOLVE PURITY PROBLEMS in gigantic neon print, so picking that. This does prevent us from entering a Golden Age though. Shrug.
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We have Infrastructure Passive Policy working on it next turn.
 
[X] [MP] Spread the Wealth Around (All Subordinates Receive +0-1 Loyalty)
[X] [Int] Crack down on the puritans (-2 Intrigue, -1 to +1 Stability, ???)
[X] [Ext] Find out more about what the Highlanders are up to (Main Trade Mission)
[X] [React] Expand Great Hall (2xGreat Hall Annexes)
[X] [PSN] Main Expand Forests (-2 Cent + Costs)
 
Reader of all said:
It is this part that I am having trouble with does that mean we will also target people who have not done anything wrong just because they are puritans? What about the children of the puritans?

That is not what I am getting from the option though from what I understand we would basically be ostracizing and purging every puritan, even those who had done nothing wrong just because they are puritans. We would not be discussing things we would just label the puritans as maniacs and people to be punished.
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It would be basically isolating or killing anyone who holds the beliefs of a puritan and cannot be convinced by the priests and King.

So like, a Puritan Patrician would find themselves no longer able to go up the ranks because they are Puritans.
Or a Puritan priest would be sent to a far off temple to study where they cannot preach.
Things like that.

It's basically the only way to actually get rid of the trait at this point.
 
Reader of all said:
It is this part that I am having trouble with does that mean we will also target people who have not done anything wrong just because they are puritans? What about the children of the puritans?

That is not what I am getting from the option though from what I understand we would basically be ostracizing and purging every puritan, even those who had done nothing wrong just because they are puritans. We would not be discussing things we would just label the puritans as maniacs and people to be punished.
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AN clarified:
Academia Nut said:
Due to the low amount of voting before the lock there will be no update tonight. Don't get the thread locked again.

"Root and branch" here refers to a combination of political violence to execute, exile, and physically isolate a number of the major puritan priests and ringleaders while aggressively politically debating and isolating the root philosophies. Innocents and people undeserving of the punishments dealt it well get caught up in the process, but it is not intended to be a frenzied purge, although it could go sideways.
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So we're targeting the major ringleaders and instigators with exile and execution, but simply vigorously debating the masses. Some innocents may get caught up, and we could botch the whole thing (as always) but we're not pulling a Spanish Inquisition here.
 
Reader of all said:
That is not what I am getting from the option though from what I understand we would basically be ostracizing and purging every puritan, even those who had done nothing wrong just because they are puritans. We would not be discussing things we would just label the puritans as maniacs and people to be punished.
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Read what AN said again.
Academia Nut said:
"Root and branch" here refers to a combination of political violence to execute, exile, and physically isolate a number of the major puritan priests and ringleaders
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First we go after the violent ones.
while aggressively politically debating and isolating the root philosophies. Innocents and people undeserving of the punishments dealt it well get caught up in the process, but it is not intended to be a frenzied purge, although it could go sideways.
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Then we debate the philosophy. It's not just going and killing all the puritans, we'd be taking out their leadership, the ones advocating violence, and then convincing as many as we can.

Innocents will get caught up in it, such as the families of the Puritans and other supporters, but it won't be an outright purge.
 
Citino said:
Well, there's a lot of ways that I could see Purity evolving. If we are debating it, I could see us stripping the 'Foreigner' aspect of Purity out of it, since that's what most of the curent Puritans seem to be against right now. So the debates would mostly be focused on removing the idea that others have nothing to contribute to the people.

We also know that AN said that taking the legit and RA hit options would strengthen the culture that supports PiA, so that seems to indicate that debating is a very good idea right now, if we want to keep PiA strong.
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Good start, but try to go deeper.

If this did evolve the trait, what would a Purity trait evolved by cracking down look like? What about a trait where we root out the cause?

From a mechanical level that is. Mechanics do tend to reflect narrative, and we can make some conjectures on what this would change.

I'm thinking the 'rip them out by the root' might get us some insulation towards certain unrest events. I'm having a hard time coming up with something more, though. Need people looking at this this way so we can expand on it!
 
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bluefur87 said:
Good start, but try to go deeper.

If this did evolve a trait, what would a trait evolved by cracking down look like? What about a trait where we root out the cause?

From a mechanical level that is. Mechanics do tend to reflect narrative, and we can make some conjectures on what this would change.

I'm thinking the 'rip them out by the root' might get us some insulation towards certain unrest events. I'm having a hard time coming up with something more, though. Need people looking at this this way so we can expand on it!
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I don't find Cracking Down to be one that would be likely to promote a trait evolution. Cracking down just means we hit the violent ones, but we wouldn't address the core of their existence, Purity. It's just a police action.

A RL comparison is the difference between sending police out to keep the KKK from lynching people, versus starting an education program to show why racism is wrong while also cracking down on lawbreakers. The first will keep the people somewhat safe, but the attitude that spawned the action is completely unchanged. The second pushes back against the underlying assumptions, and with time reduce the attitude that led to the KKK being acceptable to people.
 
Some useful things to note:
1) Great Hall expansion got us +1 diplo/turn
2) Purity's disease resistance will help us maintain more cities safely, and resistance to foreign influences can be useful for letting us take in refugees without having them radicalize against us so long as we evolve it correctly. Purity sucks, but so does every 1st level value.
3) Golden Age is coming so long as we stay at 3+ Stability.
4) Expand Econ+Trade Excitement would massively overflow into our Martial, negating the need to take More Scouts if we want to get Warships+March next turn. (It would cost us some LTE, but would also turn on a couple cities)

edit: Overflow -> Martial requires Trade Excitement as well, otherwise it just overflows into Wealth.
 
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