Huh, checking back here before sleep was a good idea... *reads update*
So, nothing particularly on fire yet, but there is some smoke coming from the lowlands. The HK have gone full Theocracy and are trying to cause us problems, because of course they are. I see the salt is flowing in the thread over what to do with the Puritans.
[X] [MP] Trade Excitement (+10 Wealth, +1 Stability from Guild demands)
[X] [Int] Crack down on the puritans (-2 Intrigue, -1 to +1 Stability, ???)
[X] [Ext] Find out more about what the Highlanders are up to (Main Trade Mission)
[X] [React] Need more scouts (Sec More Blackbirds + Sec More Spiritbonded)
[X] [PSN] Main Plant Cotton (-2 Cent + Costs)
The megaproject rewards are pretty good, was going to go for the loyalty but it only has a chance of loyalty gain and I'd prefer manual influences. They're probably more effective.
Puritans are going way out of line so cracking down seems proportionate. I'm not a massive fan of Purity, but it is useful for disease rolls and it can be evolved if we try. There is no guarantee we'll get a religious tolerance value if we drop it, since that was from a specific vote while suffering civilisation ending plague. We might end up with something we hate even worse.
Send a trade mission to see what is going on with the Highlanders. More scouts to raise our martial and will let us get warships during the main turn. Cotton for wealth, but I'm not too fussed about this one. If we have enough wealth after all the actions I might change to forests.
They are not some random religious group with miscellaneous beliefs. They are specifically a sect of our mainstream religion that preaches religious intolerance. You should not need help to see how smacking down religious intolerance leads to religious tolerance.
They are a sect which holds purity above other religious ideals, hence puritans. A strain of this thought is that certain other people may be impure, and hence needs to be removed. We must act against that, but going against them beyond that would in fact be the very same religious intolerance you claim you want to fight.
I mean, the option is really pretty damn sure - "root and branch". Even if that doesn't mean the genealogical sense, i.e. their families, it seems pretty clear the idea here is to destroy the Puritan sect. Which is in fact religious persecution.
And just claiming that so what, they're the bad guys - well, that is too simple and naive.
A lack of AN quote does not give you license to spout off whatever bullshit you want and pass it off as truth. Killing families and children is against so much of what the People stand for. That you would claim that that is what would happen and then rally against me for not justifying my arguments is disappointing.
A lack of AN quote does not give you license to spout off whatever bullshit you want and pass it off as truth. Killing families and children is against so much of what the People stand for. That you would claim that that is what would happen and then rally against me for not justifying my arguments is disappointing.
[] [Int] Attempt to tear out these maniacs, root and branch (-2 Intrigue, -1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, -1 RA, ???)
The main benfit i see with this option is that everyone within our realm will witness the length the government is willing to go. This will massively increase the authority of our rule as there are no punishment too grave for heinous* crime.
We had been pressing gentle options too much and too often, this heavy approach will balance the scale back to neutral position; which is authority above all. How can anyone rule without force?
*according to government, does not need to be based of public or interest groups' opinion.
[] [Int] Attempt to tear out these maniacs, root and branch (-2 Intrigue, -1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, -1 RA, ???)
The main benfit i see with this option is that everyone within our realm will witness the length the government is willing to go. This will massively increase the authority of our rule as there are no punishment too grave for heinous* crime.
We had been pressing gentle options too much and too often, this heavy approach will balance the scale back to neutral position; which is authority above all. How can anyone rule without force?
*according to government, does not need to be based of public or interest groups' opinion.
[] [Int] Attempt to tear out these maniacs, root and branch (-2 Intrigue, -1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, -1 RA, ???)
The main benfit i see with this option is that everyone within our realm will witness the length the government is willing to go. This will massively increase the authority of our rule as there are no punishment too grave for heinous* crime.
We had been pressing gentle options too much and too often, this heavy approach will balance the scale back to neutral position; which is authority above all. How can anyone rule without force?
*according to government, does not need to be based of public or interest groups' opinion.
My version of a crackdown is about the same as burning the city and salt the earth. So it's more accurate to call it a purge or massacre. Either all the way or none at all, we will be hated anyway so why stop?
A lack of AN quote does not give you license to spout off whatever bullshit you want and pass it off as truth. Killing families and children is against so much of what the People stand for. That you would claim that that is what would happen and then rally against me for not justifying my arguments is disappointing.
I seem not be the only one interpreting it exactly this way.
May I remind you that just a turn ago we had the possibility to completely purge the monotheists as well, for "bringing the disease". Do you expect their children would have been spared?
Purge is purge, then or now.
You want a measured response?
Choose an option which punishes the guilty, not one that punishes everyone even remotely connected to the criminals.
[] [Int] Attempt to tear out these maniacs, root and branch (-2 Intrigue, -1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, -1 RA, ???)
The main benfit i see with this option is that everyone within our realm will witness the length the government is willing to go. This will massively increase the authority of our rule as there are no punishment too grave for heinous* crime.
We had been pressing gentle options too much and too often, this heavy approach will balance the scale back to neutral position; which is authority above all. How can anyone rule without force?
*according to government, does not need to be based of public or interest groups' opinion.
"Pray to him them if direct interface with the spirits offends your sensibilities so much. If you get blighted because you offended the local spirits then obviously he's a poor intermediary and we can rip you out root and branch with neither pity nor remorse.
The culprits, their students, their families, and their extended families; probably closer to afew townsactually. Fear of punishment stops people more often than rule of law i think.
I seem not be the only one interpreting it exactly this way.
May I remind you that just a turn ago we had the possibility to completely purge the monotheists as well, for "bringing the disease". Do you expect their children to be spared then?
Purge is purge, then or now.
You want a measured response?
Choose an option which punishes the guilty, not one that punishes everyone even remotely connected to the criminals.
Who said i want measured response? I have legitimate excuse to kill the (relatively) few fanatic population to rein in the rest, and it's an opportunity to use it.
Okay, I have a desktop now. This will be a long one.
So, we have Econ 24 Wealth 13.
Our goals are:
1. Government upgrade via Annexes - we have 3 more to go.
2. Dam + Canal: needs 3-5 actions on the former, ??? on the latter.
3. March in Eastern Pass
4. Navy (aka +2 Naval +1 from trader quest =>Naval 4, decent for a while).
5. Keep trading with Forchuh instead of war for the next several generations - making nomads settle via trade is one of the best, if not the best, method of dealing with nomads.
6. Figure out what damn bug had bitten Highlanders. Defuse/protect Games allies. I think best way is Trade Mission - they probably don't even know we are of opinion we should protect our Games allies. Informing them of it is probably only possible via Trade Mission and I imagine they'll back off knowing it.
7. Purity bullshit.
8. Keep subordinates happy.
Okay, so I see several paths forward. First: we focus on knocking out Dam and Annexes next turn, do a March turn after that.
Corresponding vote this turn:
[] [MP] Royal Investment (+1-2 Free Progress to Dam Project)
[] [React] Expand Great Hall (2xGreat Hall Annexes) -4 Econ
(something else)
Then, Main turn we do:
[Main] Influence Subordinate - Greenshore -3 Econ/Wealth/else
[Secondary] Great Hall Annex - done! -2 Econ
[Secondary] Change Policy MP Support - does ~3 Mains of progress, almost guaranteed completion, lets us start Canal turn after; -6 Econ
[Secondary] TM - Forchuh/Invite to Games - Forchuh; -2 Wealth
[Secondary] Raise Army; -2 Econ, -3 Wealth, +5 Martial
[Secondary] ?
This one is -19 Econ, -15 Wealth, -3 Martial. So we will need 20 Econ, 16 Wealth, Martial 4+ at Main turn. And it had one unassigned action too...
This way we are done with Dam, are done with Navy, are set to start Canal with MP Support, are done with government upgrade.
Second: focus on getting our defensive ducks in order, doing Scouts here so that we can do Warships and March at Main.
Now:
[] [MP] Trade Excitement (+10 Wealth, +1 Stability from Guild demands) - because ponies and ships are bloody expensive
[] [React] Need more scouts (Sec More Blackbirds + Sec More Spiritbonded) -3 Econ, -6 Wealth, +4 Martial
Next turn:
[Main] Influence Subordinate - Greenshore -3 Econ/Wealth/else
[Secondary] Great Hall Annex -2 Econ
[Secondary] Change Policy MP Support - does ~3 Mains of progress, almost guaranteed completion, lets us start Canal turn after; -6 Econ
[Secondary] TM - Forchuh/Invite to Games - Forchuh; -2 Wealth
[Secondary] Raise Army; -2 Econ, -3 Wealth, +5 Martial
[Secondary] March - Eastern Pass -5 Martial, -2 Econ
This way we are not yet done with either Annex or Dam, but have enough Wealth to afford a lot of stuff, are probably entering Goldern Age via Culture or something like that, and have largely secured things.
This one costs -21 Econ, -15 Wealth, So we need to come in with 22 Econ, 20 Wealth. @Sivantic , see here: problem is, Scouts eats, like, all the Wealth. We need that +10 Wealth if we pick it.
Or we can drop Influence and do a loyalty reward, but it means not influencing their culture.
Third plan: get loyalty here and now, don't Influence.
Now:
[] [MP] Spread the Wealth Around (All Subordinates Receive +0-1 Loyalty)
???
[Main] Great Dam? -2 Econ
[Secondary] Great Hall Annex -2 Econ
[Secondary] Change Policy MP Support - does ~3 Mains of progress, almost guaranteed completion, lets us start Canal turn after; -6 Econ
[Secondary] TM - Forchuh/Invite to Games - Forchuh; -2 Wealth
[Secondary] Raise Army; -2 Econ, -3 Wealth, +5 Martial
[Secondary] March - Eastern Pass -5 Martial, -2 Econ
This costs 20 Econ, 12 Wealth. So we need to come in with 21 Econ, 17 Wealth.
Those are all very broad plan ideas. The point is: whichever we do aim for, we need 20+ Econ, ~20 Wealth come midturn if we want to achieve our objectives without risking Guild Panic and/or famine.
Now, let us look at current stats and winning vote.
We currently have, as per @Abby Normal , Econ 24, Wealth 14, Martial 7. We will have ~6 Wealth drip, so I guess we can afford leaving midturn with Wealth 14-15.
Buuut we will probably have 2-6 Econ drain due to Panem and all, so it's something to keep in mind.
[] [MP] Spread the Wealth Around (All Subordinates Receive +0-1 Loyalty)
[] [Int] Crack down on the puritans (-2 Intrigue, -1 to +1 Stability, ???)
[] [Ext] Find out more about what the Highlanders are up to (Main Trade Mission) (-2 Wealth)
[] [PSN] Main Expand Forests (-2 Cent + Costs) (-3 Econ, +4 Econ at next midturn )
[] [React] Expand Great Hall (2xGreat Hall Annexes) (-4 Econ)
Econ: 24-3-4 = 17. This is by far not enough to get everything we need next turn.
Wealth: 14-2+6 = 18. Not really enough either, and Wealth-restoring Guild actions cost Econ - of which we don't have enough either.
Okay. Let us assume this wins. What does it accomplish?
It gives us an option - not guarantee because Western subordinates might not receive loyalty boost - to not take Influence next turn. Let's assume they gain that Loyalty, for the sake of optimism.
It also almost-does Great Hall x6, which now needs 1 more secondary to be done.
We will have Econ 13, Wealth 18 or so to work with.
We just...cannot do all we want with those. Econ 13, in particular, means we are way too limited in options - hell, this turn we had Econ 14 and still were starved for it!
Like, let me try.
[Main] Great Dam? -2 Econ
[Secondary] Great Hall Annex -2 Econ - done!
[Secondary] Change Policy MP Support - does ~3 Mains of progress, almost guaranteed completion, lets us start Canal turn after; -6 Econ
[Secondary] TM - Forchuh/Invite to Games - Forchuh; -2 Wealth
[Secondary] Raise Army; -2 Econ, -3 Wealth, +5 Martial
[Secondary] Expand Econ probably, we'll need it
This costs 18 Econ, 12 Wealth. We are fine wrt Wealth, but not so much with Econ.
So, like. Can we please do Expand Econ instead of forests? Or, faliling that, which of
Dam
government upgrade
peace with Forchuh (this one is a bit of a question mark to be fair)
Navy
Are you willing to sacrifice? We can do all of the above if we take something else.
Also, just FYI yall, we literally cannot do Warships+March next turn unless we take More Scouts now.
And since I want to ensure we are safe against Nomads, I'll do it this way:
[] [MP] Royal Investment (+1-2 Free Progress to Dam Project)
[] [Int] Attempt to tear out these maniacs, root and branch (-2 Intrigue, -1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, -1 RA, ???)
[] [Ext] Find out more about what the Highlanders are up to (Main Trade Mission)
[] [React] Need more scouts (Sec More Blackbirds + Sec More Spiritbonded)
[] [PSN] Main Expand Econ (-2 Cent + Costs)
This way we get Econ 27 Wealth 17 or so come next Main turn. It's doable.
But, regardless of your exact priorities: if we take Forests, we cannot do everything we want to next turn.
EDIT: I am a moron, Wealth drip change comes in effect only after main turn.
Wealth: 14 - 6(Scouts) - 2 (TM) + 5 (Overflow) = 13. Unacceptable if we want to get ships and army, because ~Guild Panic~.
New plan:
[X] [MP] Trade Excitement (+10 Wealth, +1 Stability from Guild demands)
[X] [Int] Attempt to tear out these maniacs, root and branch (-2 Intrigue, -1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, -1 RA, ???)
[X] [Ext] Find out more about what the Highlanders are up to (Main Trade Mission)
[X] [React] Need more scouts (Sec More Blackbirds + Sec More Spiritbonded)
[X] [PSN] Main Expand Econ (-2 Cent + Costs)
[X] [MP] Trade Excitement (+10 Wealth, +1 Stability from Guild demands)
[X] [MP] Royal Investment (+1-2 Free Progress to Dam Project)
[X] [Int] Attempt to tear out these maniacs, root and branch (-2 Intrigue, -1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, -1 RA, ???)
[X] [Ext] Find out more about what the Highlanders are up to (Main Trade Mission)
[X] [React] Improve Navy (Main More Warships)
[X] [React] Improve Horse Valley Temple (2xSec Temple Actions)
[X] [React] Need more scouts (Sec More Blackbirds + Sec More Spiritbonded)
[X] [PSN] Main Expand Forests (-2 Cent + Costs)
Adhoc vote count started by sidestory on Nov 8, 2017 at 4:18 AM, finished with 126777 posts and 32 votes.
[X] [MP] Royal Investment (+1-2 Free Progress to Dam Project)
[X] [Ext] They are an obvious threat to you and your Games partners (Main War Mission)
-[X] [Ext] Change to Offensive Policy
-[X] [Ext] Change to Mass Levy Policy
[X] [Ext] The Storm People could use mercenaries, and you have some
-[X] [Ext] SY: Red Banner
-[X] [Ext] SY: Dragon Banner
-[X] [Ext] SY: Blood Rain Banner
[X] [Ext] They are an obvious threat to you and your Games partners (Main War Mission)
-[X] [Ext] Change to Offensive Policy
-[X] [Ext] Change to Mass Levy Policy
[X] [Ext] The Storm People could use mercenaries, and you have some
-[X] [Ext] SY: Red Banner
-[X] [Ext] SY: Dragon Banner
-[X] [Ext] SY: Blood Rain Banner
[X] [Ext] They are an obvious threat to you and your Games partners (Main War Mission)
-[X] [Ext] Change to Offensive Policy
-[X] [Ext] Change to Mass Levy Policy
[X] [Ext] The Storm People could use mercenaries, and you have some
-[X] [Ext] SY: Red Banner
-[X] [Ext] SY: Dragon Banner
-[X] [Ext] SY: Blood Rain Banner
[X] [Ext] They are an obvious threat to you and your Games partners (Main War Mission)
-[X] [Ext] Change to Offensive Policy
-[X] [Ext] Change to Mass Levy Policy
[X] [Ext] The Storm People could use mercenaries, and you have some
-[X] [Ext] SY: Red Banner
-[X] [Ext] SY: Dragon Banner
-[X] [Ext] SY: Blood Rain Banner
The culprits, their students, their families, and their extended families; probably closer to afew towns actually. Fear of punishment stops people more often than rule of law i think.
The root and branch could refer to just the extremists while the 'soft' purge option might affect all the puritans not just the ones who are causing trouble. There is also the fact that the maniacs might not be the puritans. There is no guarantee that all the maniacs are puritans. The updates are notorious for being extremely subtle on the condescension of what is actually going on. For example the anti-slavery stigma of the Ymaryn. Why the Ymaryn still have a stigma against slaves is not made clear, at all. For the many years the Ymaryn have existed being against slaves is just something they do.
The increased activity from the bazaar also brought increased trouble, but fortunately the mayor had been keeping an eye out for that sort of thing, and had leaned on some external contacts to follow up a few leads. It seemed that while Uvothyn had clipped a number of burgeoning issues with the enclaves in the bud, some of the more radically puritan priests were still causing problems. In particular some of the most extreme adherents were covertly attacking people. The majority of these attacks were on marginalized and vulnerable groups like half-exiles, prostitutes, and anyone suspected of harbouring One God sympathies, but they also occasionally went after petty merchants, who they saw as encouraging greed and sin. That they had a tendency to target those who were involved with foreign trade more than internal trade was duly noted, as well as seeming to go after rumours of impiety among the shipbuilding artisans more often than in other occupations. It was obvious that these puritan radicals felt that outsiders brought disharmony and sin and felt that the People would be fundamentally better off alone and isolated.
This whole quote can mean that the maniacs are only puritans, but it can also mean that not only are the maniacs Ymaryn who are not members of the Puritans... The maniacs are individuals who just don't want to interact with the world before the Ymaryn have grown tall trunks and firm roots, again. There are two points of possibility here.
Innocent Ymaryn taking advantage of an idea, or madmen from one religion.
What makes you certain that we don't need to look through all the Ymaryn, only the Puritans?
Either all the way or none at all, we will be hated anyway so why stop?
