Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
More stability now means less people doing their Enforce Justices.
- Location
- Australia
Warning for Marginal Behaviour - Rule 4 Bad Faith Debating, Borderline Uncivil Behaviour
You logic is the same kind of crap logic and reasoning veekie used to justify ignoring the monotheists.
Did you ignore what I wrote not just a single page earlier? I even bolded and underlined it.
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- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
That's not an argument. "Rip these people out, their making our society disharmonous" is what Purity is all about. You're not gonna change those attitudes if you display those attitudes!
- Location
- Hell
On second thought , I think that @ctulhuslp is right about getting things in the right order. In which case I actually suggest going for the
[X] [React] Need more scouts (Sec More Blackbirds + Sec More Spiritbonded)
As it both gives us more Light Cavalry and much needed Martial so that we can both build a March in the Spirit Channel and increase our Navy.
Also @loserthree is right
Here is the sauce
The thing to remember however, is that ripping them out is likely to lose our Purity trait completely, including the protection against disease rolls it gives. Cracking down on in however, means tempering it. It means telling people that they took it too far, rather than telling people not to follow purity at all.
This is our chance to evolve the trait.
And rest of vote
[X] [MP] Spread the Wealth Around (All Subordinates Receive +0-1 Loyalty)
[X] [Int] Crack down on the puritans (-2 Intrigue, -1 to +1 Stability, ???)
[X] [Ext] Find out more about what the Highlanders are up to (Main Trade Mission)
[X] [React] Need more scouts (Sec More Blackbirds + Sec More Spiritbonded)
As it both gives us more Light Cavalry and much needed Martial so that we can both build a March in the Spirit Channel and increase our Navy.
Also @loserthree is right
Here is the sauce
Puritans do not like the Monotheists either, but the Monotheists are in support of Ymaryn instead of the Highlander Kingdom. As Loyalty is shown, so it will be rewarded.
The thing to remember however, is that ripping them out is likely to lose our Purity trait completely, including the protection against disease rolls it gives. Cracking down on in however, means tempering it. It means telling people that they took it too far, rather than telling people not to follow purity at all.
This is our chance to evolve the trait.
You have not been following the recent talks have you? It was a recent Quest. Everyone was excited
Actually we do not have monotheist Agitators.
Our monotheists are firmly Ymaryn. As long as we show Lord's Loyalty, they will continue to support Ymaryn and not run off.
And rest of vote
[X] [MP] Spread the Wealth Around (All Subordinates Receive +0-1 Loyalty)
[X] [Int] Crack down on the puritans (-2 Intrigue, -1 to +1 Stability, ???)
[X] [Ext] Find out more about what the Highlanders are up to (Main Trade Mission)
- Location
- Australia
This is utter crap. Cracking down on crime is not going to reinforce Purity. Instead of merely shutting down the violent activities of the radicals, we are also imprisoning the violent radicals. The message it will send is not "Rip these people out, their beliefs are disharmonious", it will be "Rip these people out, they are breaking the law and harming fellow Ymaryn." We were told by AN that we need to take -RA and -Legitimacy actions to beat this and you are wrong for contradicting him.
Well, some Monotheists. Some expressed interest in the whole "down with the heretics" thing.
- Location
- Hell
Going back to this comment.
Bazaar increased the power of our markets, rather than give us more gold directly. That sounds like more good are flowing rather than money flowing into the necessary pockets.
We want to upgrade it, this is our chance.
Well consider what gave us the option
Bazaar increased the power of our markets, rather than give us more gold directly. That sounds like more good are flowing rather than money flowing into the necessary pockets.
What it will do is cause us to lose the trait.
We want to upgrade it, this is our chance.
That is a false argument. The reasoning for why one side or another is disharmonious differs greatly between the two sides: one is disharmonious because they are attacking others for being somewhat different, one is supposedly disharmonious because they are somewhat different.
Really, I would see taking the route of cracking down maximum on the former would turn it into a spiritual value which would help us with taking in refugees instead of slamming the boot onto their skulls, possibly at the cost of requiring more religious freedoms and thus lowering maximum RA.
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AN specifically told us that Purity is harmed by Legitimacy and RA hits. The "rip out" option is a RA and Legitimacy degrading option that specifically targets people identified as puritans. I can't even imagine how anyone saw that and deduced that it would reinforce purity.
The real danger is that it might harm our justice value through disproportionate response.
The real danger is that it might harm our justice value through disproportionate response.
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- Location
- Australia
You are being way too optimistic. If the action fails, the trait will stay as bad as it is and cause serious problems. Better to remove it and replace it with the Religious Tolerance trait we missed out on. Religious Tolerance is a much better trait than Purity and whatever possible thing you're imagining it'll upgrade to.
maximillian
Civilised Sheep
- Location
- Ranch
[X] [MP] Trade Excitement (+10 Wealth, +1 Stability from Guild demands)
Any of those is great on its own, but the stab option helps protect against any negative repercussions from the suppression, furthermore, it gives an image of festivity and prosperity despite the interesting times in Ymar. Most importantly, the emphasise and celebration of the commercial aspect of urbanity will do wonders to shift the theological orthodoxy to something more desirable, and reduce puritans to the edge of the fringe.
[X] [Int] Crack down on the puritans (-2 Intrigue, -1 to +1 Stability, ???)
Fits perfectly with the above option, and deals a blow to puritans and their parent theology.
[X] [Ext] The Storm People could use mercenaries, and you have some
-[X] [Ext] SY: Red Banner
-[X] [Ext] SY: Dragon Banner
-[X] [Ext] SY: Blood Rain Banner
Storm people are the closest to us culturaly, they cover a large chunk of territory and people's and they have good relationship with the new not turkomen. Assisting them serves three functions.
One, it reasserts Ymar hegemony and dominance in the area, showing everyone that we are a power not to be taken lightly. and puts the SP in our debt.
Two, It sends a mighty message to our western colonies, by both undermining the Storm people, and showing the reach of Valleyhomes arms. To say that this is an action that will discourage any thoughts of secession for the foreseeable future is putting it mildly.
Three, working with our ex secessionists and thier amalgamation of an empire, will firmly establish a new direction for purity to take, one that is distinctly divergent from the current crop of puritans.
[X] [React] Expand Great Hall (2xGreat Hall Annexes)
The sooner this gets done, the better. This ensures that its done this turn, and thus giving us both a new government, and reasserts royal dominance. Needless to say, this fits perfectly with the above mentioned options, they basically play on each other reinforcing royal supremacy and reach.
The king has a grand hall, the same year he suppress a theological school, celebrates the glorious commercial might of Ymar, and sends a great army to show their Lords, western neighbours and the world the power and majesty of the king.
[X] [PSN] Main Plant Poppies (-2 Cent + Costs)
Nothing fits into festive moods and shows off splendour than fine smoke, and poppies make a truly high luxury smoking culture.
Could become the iconic living symbol of the Ymar elites even. And would likely drive the less fortunate to find new cheaper plants to be smoked in various ingenious way. Thus bringing wealth and happiness to all Ymar.
Any of those is great on its own, but the stab option helps protect against any negative repercussions from the suppression, furthermore, it gives an image of festivity and prosperity despite the interesting times in Ymar. Most importantly, the emphasise and celebration of the commercial aspect of urbanity will do wonders to shift the theological orthodoxy to something more desirable, and reduce puritans to the edge of the fringe.
[X] [Int] Crack down on the puritans (-2 Intrigue, -1 to +1 Stability, ???)
Fits perfectly with the above option, and deals a blow to puritans and their parent theology.
[X] [Ext] The Storm People could use mercenaries, and you have some
-[X] [Ext] SY: Red Banner
-[X] [Ext] SY: Dragon Banner
-[X] [Ext] SY: Blood Rain Banner
Storm people are the closest to us culturaly, they cover a large chunk of territory and people's and they have good relationship with the new not turkomen. Assisting them serves three functions.
One, it reasserts Ymar hegemony and dominance in the area, showing everyone that we are a power not to be taken lightly. and puts the SP in our debt.
Two, It sends a mighty message to our western colonies, by both undermining the Storm people, and showing the reach of Valleyhomes arms. To say that this is an action that will discourage any thoughts of secession for the foreseeable future is putting it mildly.
Three, working with our ex secessionists and thier amalgamation of an empire, will firmly establish a new direction for purity to take, one that is distinctly divergent from the current crop of puritans.
[X] [React] Expand Great Hall (2xGreat Hall Annexes)
The sooner this gets done, the better. This ensures that its done this turn, and thus giving us both a new government, and reasserts royal dominance. Needless to say, this fits perfectly with the above mentioned options, they basically play on each other reinforcing royal supremacy and reach.
The king has a grand hall, the same year he suppress a theological school, celebrates the glorious commercial might of Ymar, and sends a great army to show their Lords, western neighbours and the world the power and majesty of the king.
[X] [PSN] Main Plant Poppies (-2 Cent + Costs)
Nothing fits into festive moods and shows off splendour than fine smoke, and poppies make a truly high luxury smoking culture.
Could become the iconic living symbol of the Ymar elites even. And would likely drive the less fortunate to find new cheaper plants to be smoked in various ingenious way. Thus bringing wealth and happiness to all Ymar.
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- Location
- Hell
Not really
Some interest was shown, but thanks to our Heroic Mystic King, Lord's Loyalty, and our high Intrigue, we do not have to worry about that.
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
And those who actually do that violence need to be cracked down upon. I mean, what else do you think "crack down upon" means? But "Attempt to tear out these maniacs, root and branch" goes further than a crack down. Root and branch - that would be a persecution of the Puritans then. But the Puritans as a religious group, as long as they don't attack others (and that is what "crack down upon" ensures), have as much a right to exist as the monotheists. If you want the Puritans, as a belief system, as a religious group, removed, then that is actually doing the same as they are doing.
What we must ensure is that those two groups with diametrically opposed views can both exist in our society. That there is hence no pure Ymaryn, and no pure Ymaryn beliefs.
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- Location
- Hell
I am being realistic. We have been shown that narrative matters in these sorts of decision. The attempt has to be be made.
If anything you are being too pessimistic.
I'm not so certain that would happen. At the end of the day we are aiming for justice and we are doing this to rip out systematic injustice.
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
But that is already the "crack down" option. The "tear out" option goes beyond that - tear out root and branch. I.e., tearing out the whole Puritan belief system (which is the root of it) and all its adherents! You want justice, well, then crack down on the crimes! "Root out" is a "persecute group" option.
- Location
- Staring into the void
Which of these option is most supporting of PiA?
LoserThree
Finds writing poorly easy
- Location
- Greater Seattle Area
- Pronouns
- he/him
Warning For Marginal Behavior
I think maybe you are a Russian bot farm agitator aiming to undermine the Progressive Glory of the People.
We need not tolerate the intolerant in order to be tolerant.
You're just wrong. This is the kind of argument that leaves Nazis unpunched.
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But the core of our justice system since the very beginning is that justice has to be proportional to the crime and ideally it only against the guilty. "Root and branch" goes after people merely expressing puritan views hence, the RA hit.
There is a image that perfectly encapsulates your point of view - or rather, the point of view I take at these words.
There is no compromises here. Puritan beliefs are a toxin that pollutes everything, you do not allow it to fester: you immediately start pulling it out.
maximillian
Civilised Sheep
- Location
- Ranch
Mate, only way puritans can coexist in a society, is if they gave their own lands completely isolated from the rest of society, or If they have their own provinces/cities, ruled by themselves completely separate from the rest of the administration.
And thats the less hard line puritans mind you, the standard puritan would rather die than allow the false to exist.
Ofcourse, if you decide to go fuedalism or other forms of decentralised governance, am up for it.
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- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
Ah, so you're just a supporter of political violence. Gotcha.
