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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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[X] We'll leave, but someone from outside the Pleiades needs to mediate. If not us, than Mami.
-[X] Ask Mami to mediate. We're... not too good with people and conversations like this.
-[X] We trust her.

Replace with Sayaka for High(er)-risk, high reward scenario.
 
Vebyast said:
Niko is telling her daughter how she's supposed to live her life and punching her in the face when she does it wrong. How do you think that that's acceptable? How the fuck do you think that this is going to lead to Hijiri listening to anything Niko says? I don't care if there's an interpretation where Niko's logic is not unacceptable, everything else she's doing is abuse and her arguments are the worst kind of worthless!

Put yourself in Hijiri's shoes. Are you going to fucking listen to Niko? Or are you going to continue doing exactly what you've been doing in response to an apparently-abusive parent figure?
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Vebyast, I believe Niko's actions as we suspect they have occurred have been disgusting, abusive, and wholly unbefitting of a good person.

But will you please keep in mind that this is not a traditional abusive parent situation?

When was the last time Niko spoke with Hijiri?

Oh.

Wait.

Never.

The five or six sentences which they have just exchanged are the first time they have ever spoken with each other, and in that time what has Niko said???

What has Niko said???

"You idiot," Niko snarls. "You were supposed to live happy and not... this!"

"What was I supposed to do?" Hijiri snarls right back. She doesn't stand, balanced in a crouch with one hand on the roof and one touching her reddened cheek. "What was I supposed to do when I found out I was just some- some fake? Am I just your doll to live through?"

"No!" Niko snaps. "You were supposed to live like I never could!"
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I am saying that we need to wait another few moments here for her to actually fucking say something that isn't right, correct, good, etcetera.

You can't take action against abusers until they engage in abuse. The first slap was wrong, certainly, and the second will be abuse. Hitomi was willing to slap us once and Mami was willing to allow it once. The standard stands.
 
Kaizuki said:
relying on the context we think we have
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Hijiri has none of that context either. She can't know that Niko thinks she's being reasonable and even if she did she wouldn't give two shits. She's not going to listen to what Niko is saying. End of story.

Kaizuki said:
You can't take action against abusers until they engage in abuse. The first slap was wrong, certainly, and the second will be abuse. Hitomi was willing to slap us once and Mami was willing to allow it once. The standard stands.
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If it was just the slap I might agree with you. But it's not. Look at how Niko is talking. You want to know why we're framing Niko as an abusive parental figure? Because she's trying to frame Hijiri as a baby. I'd agree with you if Niko had said "I wanted you to have a good life". But she isn't. She's saying "You were supposed to be a good girl".

And even then, it doesn't matter because Hijiri damn sure won't agree with you and won't agree with Niko.

[x] Godwinson
 
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Vebyast said:
Hijiri has none of that context either. She can't know that Niko thinks she's being reasonable and even if she did she wouldn't give two shits. She's not going to listen to what Niko is saying. End of story.

[x] Godwinson
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Regardless of whether or not we believe it will be productive I maintain that Niko is owed her one chance. She is within an inch of blowing it already and in blowing it she will make it substantially easier for us to step in.

This post will be criticized as trying to take an easy road rather than the right one. My response will simply be that an "easier" road, here, gives everyone involved an easier time and reduces the burdens that this will place on them.

[X] Stand your ground, observe.
-[X] Calmly, out loud but quiet: Saki is not aware of the full context here. Certainly Niko can "handle herself," but Niko and Hijiri misunderstand each other in a way that makes this volatile and toxic. You're not leaving until you're certain that Hijiri isn't going to end up in a grief spiral.
[X] Short update; break at any point where Niko says or does something really not okay to Hijiri (or potentially vice versa) -- crying, threats, Niko ordering Hijiri to do something, Niko getting physical again, etc are all really not okay.
-[X] Break by immediately stepping in; forcibly separate the two if you have to.
 
Kaizuki said:
She is within an inch of blowing it already and in blowing it she will make it substantially easier for us to step in.
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If she blows it, we have no chance to step in because Hijiri will be totally entrenched. Did you even read the article I posted after we first captured Hijiri? Niko had her chance. That was what the end of the last update was. She had her chance and she used it to treat Hijiri like a misbehaving child and then strike her. She's done.

And why would Niko "deserve" a chance in the first place? Back when we had time with Hijiri, before Niko got here, I didn't see you saying anything like "We should shut up and wait because this isn't our argument to make".

edit: If you put together someone that feels they've been victimized and the person that's been victimizing them and the victimizer opens by slapping the victim and using objectifying language, that's it. You do not say "NO NO IT WAS ONLY THE FIRST TIME THEY HAVE TO DO IT TWICE THAT'S THE RULES". You do not give them another chance. You observed them interacting and every single thing the victim said was borne out by the action of the victimizer. This is done.

edit edit: And, yet again, whether Niko "is right" doesn't fucking matter. Our objective here isn't to be right. Our objective here is to help Hijiri and Niko resolve their disagreements. You've fallen into exactly the trap that the article I posted warned of: You've lost sight of the goal and started a fight. We need to be helping Hijiri here. Proving that Niko is right won't help Hijiri.
 
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Vebyast said:
And why would Niko "deserve" a chance in the first place? Back when we had time with Niko I didn't see you saying anything like "We should shut up and wait because this isn't our argument to make".
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Up until about five days ago I was barely even reading this quest. I've had other shit going on. If I'm missing some super crucial thing that hasn't been brought up in this entire discussion then please do bring it up, I would love that information.

Vebyast said:
And why would Niko "deserve" a chance in the first place?
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Because everyone does?

Vebyast said:
Hijiri has none of that context either.
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This is the only reasonable argument I've seen out of here all day, and it's one that begs addressing, because it is a problem. So what's my response to this?


"What was I supposed to do?" Hijiri snarls right back. She doesn't stand, balanced in a crouch with one hand on the roof and one touching her reddened cheek. "What was I supposed to do when I found out I was just some- some fake? Am I just your doll to live through?"

"No!" Niko snaps. "You were supposed to live like I never could!"
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That's as far as you've given them time to get. In that time, Hijiri aired her issue with Niko, and Niko has had time to drop a one-sentence-and-a-word response. What the heck do you want to say here? You want to provide the context Hijiri doesn't have?

All you're doing is asserting that Hijiri can't question what Niko just said, or that in turn Niko can't answer Hijiri's questions about that.

How do you expect Hijiri to respond to Niko's last statement? And what in turn do you expect Niko's follow up to that to be? Because that's what you are conspicuously not doing: giving a hypothesis as to how this won't lead to either of these parties acquiring any new information, despite it being their first direct contact with one another.

I'd rather be explaining what Niko "meant when she was saying that Hijiri was supposed to live like Niko never could" than trying to tell the entire blasted story over both of them, and to that end I see no reason at all not to let them give each other the broad strokes of their perspectives, as they appear to me to be in the process of doing.

Do I think it's going to go well medium or long term? FUCK NO. Do I think it's potentially very productive in the short term? HELL YES.
 
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Kaizuki said:
That's as far as you've given them time to get. In that time, Hijiri aired her issue with Niko, and Niko has had time to drop a one-sentence-and-a-word response. What the heck do you want to say here? You want to provide the context Hijiri doesn't have?
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And I think that Niko's choices of words are enough for us to condemn her. Niko isn't saying "I wanted you to live happily". She says "You were supposed to live happily". Given what Hijiri's fucked up about? I expect Hijiri to say something like "This is how I'm living, then!", or "What do you think I'm doing", or something else along those lines. Or maybe "You did a shit job of it then", or "I can't live, I'm fake!".

Oh, and that's the other issue.
Firnagzen said:
You shake your head, rather than try and make yourself heard over the shouting match, and you jerk your head back towards them. You need to watch Hijiri.
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They're still fighting, loudly enough that Sabrina doesn't want to have to yell over them to talk to Saki standing right next to each other. And whatever they're saying, @Firnagzen considers it so unimportant that he didn't write it into the vote. Whatever it is we're supposed to do here, he's already given us everything he thinks we need to do it.
 
Vebyast said:
They're still fighting, loudly enough that Sabrina doesn't want to have to yell over them to talk to Saki standing right next to each other. And whatever they're saying, @Firnagzen considers it so unimportant that he didn't write it into the vote. Whatever it is we're supposed to do here, he's already given us everything he thinks we need to do it.
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@Firnagzen is this the case? Or is the "shouting match" line occurring simultaneously with the dialogue we got from them?

Er, to clarify, is it "the dialogue is the shouting match" or is it "the shouting match is following the dialogue"?
 
I'd also point out? A slap hard enough to send someone spinning to the ground? Is also a slap hard enough to break bones. It wasn't a "pop on the cheek to get your kid's attention", it was more like "hit the bitch to show her who's boss" style domestic violence level of force.

Was Niko at all injured when the memory device and clear seed were stolen? Was Hijiri at all a threat to her at that time?

No.

Niko hit someone who is in a position where they're not able to defend themselves, because otherwise her friends will join in.

How the fuck does that not seem wrong to you people?
 
Godwinson said:
I'd also point out? A slap hard enough to send someone spinning to the ground? Is also a slap hard enough to break bones. It wasn't a "pop on the cheek to get your kid's attention", it was more like "hit the bitch to show her who's boss" style domestic violence level of force.

Was Niko at all injured when the memory device and clear seed were stolen? Was Hijiri at all a threat to her at that time?

No.

Niko hit someone who is in a position where they're not able to defend themselves, because otherwise her friends will join in.

How the fuck does that not seem wrong to you people?
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It absolutely does seem wrong. I am not terribly clear on the relative strengths involved in slaps; I've never slapped anyone nor have I ever been slapped. I don't really intend to commit to anything more until I have my WoG on the previous question, though. I kinda can't, it's too core to my previous arguments.
 
It's a good thing that Hijiri is a magical girl and Niko was totally in control and taking that into account when calculating how hard was safe when punching her in the face, right? Otherwise it'd be just pure luck that Niko's total loss of control was pointed at someone that could survive it.
 
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Onmur said:
Mmm... How confident are we in our Grief Fog?

We can technically use it as all powerful TK within range, but are we good enough that we could stop Hijiri from escaping, no problem?
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We can't do anything to Hijiri with it right now, because of the memory field fuzzing our senses.


Onmur said:
We could and did grab and restrain Hijiri with Grief before, though.
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Negative. We couldn't even clean her gem:
Firnagzen said:
You take a step forward, one hand rising to wipe away the Grief, but-

Your magic simply finds no purchase, sliding right off. It's potent, whatever Niko worked into that field.
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Vebyast said:
I'm still confused by how Niko is able to get in slapping range. The memory device is still active, right?
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She built it. Presumably she designed it not to affect her. Otherwise, every time she tried to work on it would be like watching the Klatchian Foreign Legion scene from Soul Music on repeat.


BlackoutSampler said:
1: A gun was in a place that was accessible by 5-year olds
2: It was already loaded, or the ammo was prepped to be loaded by a 5-year old(s)
3: the three girls were alone in the house long enough to find/find and load said gun and fire it.
4: Niko had enough free reign of the home that she felt it was alright for her to be in wherever the parents stored guns.
5: during all of this she had two of her friends over.
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Something a lot like this occurred a couple weeks ago here in Washington state, except those kids were older and the bullet didn't do some kind of absurd ricochet double-kill. Idiots who leave loaded guns unsecured and kids finding them and accidentally shooting each other is a sadly common event.


Godwinson said:
Niko hit someone who is in a position where they're not able to defend themselves, because otherwise her friends will join in.
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I have to agree. Regardless of whatever other relationship or issues are at play between them, you do not hit a restrained, non-threatening prisoner. We should have intervened to pull them apart as soon as Niko slapped her.
 
The Narrator said:
I have to agree. Regardless of whatever other relationship or issues are at play between them, you do not hit a restrained, non-threatening prisoner. We should have intervened to pull them apart as soon as Niko slapped her.
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And I will note that if I could have done so I would have voted that way. I wasn't even aware Niko was going to be getting here this update.

We do need to consider that Niko is pushing the level of distress Hijiri is at or past it.

Firnagzen said:
"Sabrina, why is she a magical girl?" Niko asks, almost pleading. "Why?"
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...

You know what, no, we have to intervene in this now. Niko needs us to intervene for her sake, just as much as Hijiri does. Alright. Urgh. Tomorrow or something.

Don't lock this shit yet Firn.
 
Kaizuki said:
It absolutely does seem wrong. I am not terribly clear on the relative strengths involved in slaps; I've never slapped anyone nor have I ever been slapped. I don't really intend to commit to anything more until I have my WoG on the previous question, though. I kinda can't, it's too core to my previous arguments.
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I have been slapped hard enough to send me sprawling to the ground, though not hard enough to spin to the ground. In my experience, the bruises from that tend to last about 2-3 weeks it it was open hand, 3-4 weeks if it was backhand, mainly because where the knuckles hit takes longer to fade away completely. A punch to the face tend to be about 3-4 weeks, but also tend to cause more bone issues. as well as pressure cuts. In terms of the amount of force required? You need to swing from the hip for a slap that hard.

Is that enough to cover it?
 
We should probably make sure to keep Niko cleansed, as a side note. This is "Someone destroyed her Wish" territory - treat it as if Hijiri just killed her dog, and I'm being absolutely literal when I use that turn of phrase.

...That's probably another reason to intervene immediately, yes.
 
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Vebyast said:
We should probably make sure to keep Niko cleansed, as a side note. This is "Someone destroyed her Wish" territory - treat it as if Hijiri just killed her dog, and I'm being absolutely literal when I use that turn of phrase.

...That's probably another reason to intervene immediately, yes.
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Oh, that's a better analogy! I forget, people actually care about animals!

So, standing by as someone beats their dog, A-OK for the thread? I just want to know exactly what level of "beating on someone who can't respond" is acceptable these days. Please, enlighten me.
 
[X] Godwinson

Oooookay so I don't know what the supposed reasoning behind letting Niko do what she's doing, but frankly it doesn't matter. She's beating a prisoner. And one that she created at that. That means she's pointlessly beating something of a daughter. We made friends with these people- that doesn't mean that we look the other way when they do awful things. It means we expect better. We demand better. And Niko can be a lot better than she's being right now.
 
Godwinson said:
Oh, that's a better analogy! I forget, people actually care about animals!

So, standing by as someone beats their dog, A-OK for the thread? I just want to know exactly what level of "beating on someone who can't respond" is acceptable these days. Please, enlighten me.
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Please Godwinson. Please. No more.

I wouldn't have accepted the first one if I could have prevented it. I won't accept another one. I was prepared at most to stand by while they spoke, not while they came to blows. And there was no vote to do less than that, not by anyone. You're projecting.
 
I was beginning to wonder I was being the weird one for wanting to immediately intervene.:V

I mean,

A.) Kanna is clearly terrified.
B.) She got smacked in the face.
C.) She's kind of getting yelled at.

Although, I think some of you are getting incredibly worked about this. This is pretty bad, but she's not being beaten to death in front of Sabrina, you know.
 
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