- Location
- Illinois
Vote at bottom.
My issue with intervening right away is that they have literally said six (really five) sentences to each other.
So, just, from the perspective of anyone but us, what exactly is the full extent of the exchange here so far? Cutting out all the other junk,
There is a chance -- a real chance, maybe a slim chance, but a real chance -- that this is actually going where we want it to.
"Niko wanted to give herself another, better chance at life. But she didn't view herself as worthy of it. That's why she wished you into existence, Kanna Hijiri: so that you would live happily where she could not. Was that selfish? Yes. But... is wishing someone into existence so that they will have a happy life such a terrible thing?"
That is the first thing I would say to Hijiri about Niko.
Is this such a terrible thing for her to be saying? Yes, in context, because we suspect that Hijiri has some reason for which she doesn't fucking want to be living the way Niko set her up. But in response to Hijiri asking if she was just some fake, or a doll?
What else is the response supposed to be?
My concern here is that by intervening too soon and throwing around all these things that appear to most of the people around us as pointless tangents, we make ourselves sound like we're high.
"Shoot down the fake person idea." Well, what did Niko just start doing?
We're in a similar situation? How are we going to "convey" that before Niko snaps at us for getting involved when we are entering by saying what she just said?
"Step back and let them go another round." Our intervention with this vote will take about ten times as long as they've been conversing for so far. This isn't going to happen; Niko will tell us to butt out, Hijiri will probably buck Niko by asking who put her in charge of our involvement or some such, the whole thing goes up in fire.
Any intervention into an argument as heated as this has to be quick, precise, and efficient in order to avoid being subsumed into a talking point; or possess sufficient force to bludgeon the participants into silence (which would require force, I expect).
Given a vacuum, these are all good points that we could present. We are not in a vacuum and one will not exist until the argument is over.
This is why I want to wait.
We need an opening if we want to really nip this in the bud. We believe that we have the social weapon for it -- something along the lines of "Hijiri has a soul, you have no data whatsoever for the repercussions of subtracting the memories that you did from your personality, how do you know she was living happily."
It's not clear that we actually have that. It's more than possible that Niko routinely observed Hijiri -- note how she said that Hijiri "was gone" a few posts back, implying that she was able to quickly check on her and knew what her habits were, which is possibly within the bounds of "clone" but also possibly falls into "I watch her through a window every few days." Certainly you'd expect Niko would look at Hijiri's life occasionally, anyway. In this case Niko may know more than we expect; it's possible Hijiri is just really, really thrown by the whole "I'm fake" thing for reasons unknown.
Please note that after we intervene the first time, subsequent interventions will be much more difficult if the first doesn't go extremely well, similarly to our past conversations with Oriko.
So, to reiterate:
1) We need to get it right when we intervene
2) They've been through about five sentences so far
3) Niko hasn't said anything really extreme yet if you consider what Hijiri's immediate response to her was
Again, I will assert that we should delay. Not forever, maybe not even for very long. But we have no ground to stand on right now unless we want to try to insert a lecture into this thing, like, five to ten seconds after it's started. Won't work.
We need a target before we dive into this. I want, just as much as you, to go in there and throw a "you ever consider she might not want to do this??" in Niko's face. But Niko hasn't provided an opportunity for that yet. If we try to manufacture the opportunity ourselves -- that is, if we go in and ask her questions intended to lead up to throwing that in her face -- we will be derailed before we reach the point we want to get to.
I don't really agree with less words on this. Just telling Saki that the situation is toxic and nobody understands each other isn't sufficient or safe; she's liable to respond that Niko can handle herself. She's repeatedly demonstrated that she isn't thinking about Hijiri's well-being here whatsoever. I'm not really certain of how precisely to deal with that, but "it's toxic, they don't understand" isn't it. Might be that we "aren't leaving until we're sure Hijiri isn't going to grief spiral." I definitely don't agree with removing the target from the Shelley line; that should specifically go to Umika -- none of the other Pleiades are at all likely to understand it.
[X] Stand your ground, observe.
-[X] Calmly, out loud but quiet: Saki is not aware of the full context here. Certainly Niko can "handle herself," but Niko and Hijiri misunderstand each other in a way that makes this volatile and toxic. You're not leaving until you're certain that Hijiri isn't going to end up in a grief spiral.
-[X] Simultaneously, telepathy Umika and inquire whether she's read Mary Shelley, then give her the broad strokes of the situation -- Hijiri as an ensouled creation of Niko's wish, Niko wanting Hijiri to be a certain way, Hijiri not being that way. Don't imply malice on Niko's part.
[X] Short update; break at any point where Niko says or does something really not okay to Hijiri (or potentially vice versa)
My issue with intervening right away is that they have literally said six (really five) sentences to each other.
So, just, from the perspective of anyone but us, what exactly is the full extent of the exchange here so far? Cutting out all the other junk,
There is a chance -- a real chance, maybe a slim chance, but a real chance -- that this is actually going where we want it to.
"Niko wanted to give herself another, better chance at life. But she didn't view herself as worthy of it. That's why she wished you into existence, Kanna Hijiri: so that you would live happily where she could not. Was that selfish? Yes. But... is wishing someone into existence so that they will have a happy life such a terrible thing?"
That is the first thing I would say to Hijiri about Niko.
Is this such a terrible thing for her to be saying? Yes, in context, because we suspect that Hijiri has some reason for which she doesn't fucking want to be living the way Niko set her up. But in response to Hijiri asking if she was just some fake, or a doll?
What else is the response supposed to be?
My concern here is that by intervening too soon and throwing around all these things that appear to most of the people around us as pointless tangents, we make ourselves sound like we're high.
"Shoot down the fake person idea." Well, what did Niko just start doing?
We're in a similar situation? How are we going to "convey" that before Niko snaps at us for getting involved when we are entering by saying what she just said?
"Step back and let them go another round." Our intervention with this vote will take about ten times as long as they've been conversing for so far. This isn't going to happen; Niko will tell us to butt out, Hijiri will probably buck Niko by asking who put her in charge of our involvement or some such, the whole thing goes up in fire.
Any intervention into an argument as heated as this has to be quick, precise, and efficient in order to avoid being subsumed into a talking point; or possess sufficient force to bludgeon the participants into silence (which would require force, I expect).
Given a vacuum, these are all good points that we could present. We are not in a vacuum and one will not exist until the argument is over.
This is why I want to wait.
We need an opening if we want to really nip this in the bud. We believe that we have the social weapon for it -- something along the lines of "Hijiri has a soul, you have no data whatsoever for the repercussions of subtracting the memories that you did from your personality, how do you know she was living happily."
It's not clear that we actually have that. It's more than possible that Niko routinely observed Hijiri -- note how she said that Hijiri "was gone" a few posts back, implying that she was able to quickly check on her and knew what her habits were, which is possibly within the bounds of "clone" but also possibly falls into "I watch her through a window every few days." Certainly you'd expect Niko would look at Hijiri's life occasionally, anyway. In this case Niko may know more than we expect; it's possible Hijiri is just really, really thrown by the whole "I'm fake" thing for reasons unknown.
Please note that after we intervene the first time, subsequent interventions will be much more difficult if the first doesn't go extremely well, similarly to our past conversations with Oriko.
So, to reiterate:
1) We need to get it right when we intervene
2) They've been through about five sentences so far
3) Niko hasn't said anything really extreme yet if you consider what Hijiri's immediate response to her was
Again, I will assert that we should delay. Not forever, maybe not even for very long. But we have no ground to stand on right now unless we want to try to insert a lecture into this thing, like, five to ten seconds after it's started. Won't work.
We need a target before we dive into this. I want, just as much as you, to go in there and throw a "you ever consider she might not want to do this??" in Niko's face. But Niko hasn't provided an opportunity for that yet. If we try to manufacture the opportunity ourselves -- that is, if we go in and ask her questions intended to lead up to throwing that in her face -- we will be derailed before we reach the point we want to get to.
I don't really agree with less words on this. Just telling Saki that the situation is toxic and nobody understands each other isn't sufficient or safe; she's liable to respond that Niko can handle herself. She's repeatedly demonstrated that she isn't thinking about Hijiri's well-being here whatsoever. I'm not really certain of how precisely to deal with that, but "it's toxic, they don't understand" isn't it. Might be that we "aren't leaving until we're sure Hijiri isn't going to grief spiral." I definitely don't agree with removing the target from the Shelley line; that should specifically go to Umika -- none of the other Pleiades are at all likely to understand it.
[X] Stand your ground, observe.
-[X] Calmly, out loud but quiet: Saki is not aware of the full context here. Certainly Niko can "handle herself," but Niko and Hijiri misunderstand each other in a way that makes this volatile and toxic. You're not leaving until you're certain that Hijiri isn't going to end up in a grief spiral.
-[X] Simultaneously, telepathy Umika and inquire whether she's read Mary Shelley, then give her the broad strokes of the situation -- Hijiri as an ensouled creation of Niko's wish, Niko wanting Hijiri to be a certain way, Hijiri not being that way. Don't imply malice on Niko's part.
[X] Short update; break at any point where Niko says or does something really not okay to Hijiri (or potentially vice versa)
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