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Paths of Civilization

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[X][Main] Great Dam
[X][Secondary] Trade Mission - Forhuch
[X][Secondary] Influence Subordinate - Tinriver Colony
[X][Secondary] Expand Econ
[X][Secondary] Grand Hall Annex
[X][Secondary] Change Policy - Passive (Forestry + Forestry -> Infrastructure + Infrastructure)
[X][Guild] Plant Poppy
[X][Guild] Snail Cultivation
[X][Guild Secondary] Snail Cultivation
 
[X][Main] Great Dam
[X][Secondary] Trade Mission - Forhuch
[X][Secondary] Influence Subordinate - Tinriver Colony
[X][Secondary] Expand Econ
[X][Secondary] Expand Econ x2
[X][Secondary] Change Policy - Passive (Forestry + Forestry -> Infrastructure + Infrastructure)
[X][Guild] Plant Poppy
[X][Guild] Snail Cultivation
[X][Guild Secondary] Snail Cultivation
 
Stop voting to do Tinriver. Greenshore is more important. That's why x2 from the previous vote would've went into Greenshore instead of Tinriver.
 
veekie said:
Looking at current standing quests:
-Patricians (6 {12}) - Power: Add or subtract their faction power from factions they are supporting/opposing. Objective: Build 0/4 Great Hall Annexes within 3 turns Reward: Government upgrade

Cost: [Secondary] Great Hall(Econ 2, Culture 2)x4

Guild (5) - Power: Half faction power added to Max Wealth. Objective: Have a level 3 Ironworks within 3 turns. Failure: -1 Stability

Cost: [Secondary] Block Housing(Econ 3, Tech 3) x2, [Secondary] Ironworks(Econ 3, Tech 3, Forest 1) x2

Ow, because we'd need to shove in another bath and aqueduct right after. Just fail it personally.

Traders (2) - Power: Add or subtract faction power modifier to all innovation rolls. Objective: Have Naval power 3 or above within 2 turns. Success: +1 Naval [1/2]

Cost: [Main] Econ 3, Wealth 5, Martial 3
It has also been highlighted as very important soon, due to Freehills and Western Ymaryn contesting the Black Sea.

Yeomen (2)- Power: Adds faction power to secondary Martial Objective: Have 30 EE within 3 turns. Failure: -1 Stability [1/2]

They can probably go sod off once we get enough Stabbility to ignore it.

Priests (2)- Power: Adds faction power to RA. Objective: Have a new level 2 temple somewhere within 2 turns. Success: +1 RA tolerance. Failure: -1 Stability

Cost: Temple(Econ 3, Culture 3) x2

Urban Poor (4) - Power: +1 Max Legitimacy every 3 full power. Objective: Have a Level 2 market and a Level 1 market in another city within 2 turns. Success: Grand Bazaar Megaproject completion, no faction power increase

Cost: Market(Wealth 3, Culture 3) x2

We currently have 1 Infrastructure policy running. It won't help anything on its own. We literally cannot afford to build everything manually. Infrastructure policy then must return.
We have enough of a forestry buffer that we can commit to turning the next 2 passive policies to Forestry once the cities come back.

[X][Main] Great Dam
[X][Secondary] Great Dam
[X][Secondary] Great Dam x2
[X][Secondary] Great Dam x3
[X][Secondary] Great Dam x4
[X][Secondary] Change Policy - Passive (Forestry + Forestry -> Infrastructure + Infrastructure)
[X][Guild Main] Plant Poppies
[X][Guild Main] Build Docks
[X][Guild Secondary] Expand Snail Cultivation

Okay lets see the costs on this:
-Dam - 2 Econ
-Dam(fused secondaries) - 2 Econ
-Dam(fused secondaries) x2 - 2 Econ
-Policy change - Free
-Poppies - 3 Econ, 3 EE.
-Docks - 2 Econ 1 Wealth
-Snails - 1 Econ

And the incomes:
-Poppies - 1 Mysticism, 7 Wealth
-Snails - 1 Wealth 1 Culture
-Docks - 3 Diplomacy

Available spent stats(costs included, income not included):
-Econ 13, Culture 12, Wealth 4, Tech 24
Total costs(income not included):
-Econ 12, Wealth 2, Tech 1
Lowest point possible:
-Econ 1(provinces will not spend Econ), Culture 10, Wealth 2, Tech 23

Total action profit(incoming income not included):
-Mysticism 1, Wealth 8, Culture 1

End Wealth: 11

That gives us SOME wealth next turn once the passive cashes in, which lets us rush the Warships. We can hope the passives prioritize the Market to generate Wealth and getting the Bazaar.

This is tentative, pending all sums being correct!
The key here is something PrimalShadow had been harping on for a long time now: Passives are really freaking good at making extended projects.

Also the only way we're going to be breaking even on Econ here is if we fused secondaries for the Dam. Annexes and all that costs too much.

Goddamned needle threading, I got nearly nothing I wanted out of this plan x.x
Theres also basically no way to Influence or Support subordinates without crashing SOMETHING. Urgh.
No roads even, FFS.

Anyway, work calls. Get back to this if theres more info.
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There.
ANyway arguments:
ctulhuslp said:
Folks, again, two problems I see with current vote/ @veekie 's vote:

  1. No Influence. Do you want to drop them? If yes, then sure, go ahead - but if you want to keep them, we need follow-up: "For the time being" means that it is a very tentative first step we've made, we need to follow-up now.
  2. No Trade Mission to nomads. Again, we did a first step in preventing war via trade - first contact. Where is the second step?
    Dam is a right direction, but it will be 40 years at least (2 turns, all-in and lucky rolls) to finish it. We need trade flowing constantly. Later on, with Canal, we will be able to passively trade with them; now, it might work out passively. Might.
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1) Influence - If we want to slam into the edge sure. We'd hit negative Wealth and lose Stability, thus eroding confidence in the Crown's ability to protect all these subordinates.

They are fine for now. We should not go into negative wealth out of misplaced urgency. This is urgent in a 3 turn span, not urgent in a Right Now span.

We'd be in a far better position to Influence in the mid-turn when the huge pending incomes cash in, and better yet when the Marketplaces are built. Doing it right now risks making things worse, because they are sticking with us because they see the Western Ymaryn as a threat.
This means our stability and naval is essential to preserving our subordinates. Above even Influence. This has been laid out in the narration itself.

2) We have established trade and it is lucrative, but it said in the update itself the only thing that fixes it. Trade missions other than that are nice, but nicest would be finishing the Dam. Which SHOULD also solve the Econ AND Stability problem once it's up.

Trade is already flowing. More trade would be good, but for now they want our dyes and porcelain enough that they won't start shit right now.

3) We need the 2 Infrastructure policies to have a chance of meeting all these quests. But theres probably not opposition to that.
 
Andres110 said:
Stop voting to do Tinriver. Greenshore is more important. That's why x2 from the previous vote would've went into Greenshore instead of Tinriver.
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I don't care which one, honestly, I just don't vote to split the vote and was under impression Tinriver is winning. And I am too afraid to look at buit-in vote cause it will likely be a mess.
Actually, Tinriver is winning. I am fine with it winning.
I mean, what we need is basically "Influence Subordinate - Western", but it's too unfocused.

veekie said:
1) Influence - If we want to slam into the edge sure. We'd hit negative Wealth and lose Stability, thus eroding confidence in the Crown's ability to protect all these subordinates.

They are fine for now. We should not go into negative wealth out of misplaced urgency. This is urgent in a 3 turn span, not urgent in a Right Now span.

We'd be in a far better position to Influence in the mid-turn when the huge pending incomes cash in, and better yet when the Marketplaces are built. Doing it right now risks making things worse, because they are sticking with us because they see the Western Ymaryn as a threat.
This means our stability and naval is essential to preserving our subordinates. Above even Influence. This has been laid out in the narration itself.

2) We have established trade and it is lucrative, but it said in the update itself the only thing that fixes it. Trade missions other than that are nice, but nicest would be finishing the Dam. Which SHOULD also solve the Econ AND Stability problem once it's up.

Trade is already flowing. More trade would be good, but for now they want our dyes and porcelain enough that they won't start shit right now.

3) We need the 2 Infrastructure policies to have a chance of meeting all these quests. But theres probably not opposition to that.
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1. No, we do not.
Again, look at my plan:
ctulhuslp said:
On second thought, I messed up on one big thing: we are trading with people in Horse Mountains, not Salt Sea itself. Which means Dam is actually a step in that direction. I forgot it.

[X][Main] Great Dam
[X][Secondary] Trade Mission - Forhuch
[X][Secondary] Influence Subordinate - Tinriver Colony
[X][Secondary] Expand Econ
[X][Secondary] Grand Hall Annex
[X][Secondary] Change Policy - Passive (Forestry + Forestry -> Infrastructure + Infrastructure)
[X][Guild] Plant Poppy
[X][Guild] Snail Cultivation
[X][Guild Secondary] Snail Cultivation


Expenses:
Econ: -2 (Dam) -2 (Influence) -2 (Grand Hall x1) -3 (Poppy) -4 (Snails) = -13.
Wealth: -2 (Trade Mission) -2 (Influence) = -4.
Income:
Econ: +6(Expand Econ)+12 (Balanced Main Expand Econ) = +18
Wealth: +7 (Poppy) + 4 (Snails) = 11.

Net: +5 Econ, + 7 Wealth, no negatives in either. Result: 19 Econ, 11 Wealth.
Problems addressed:
  • 1/4 Great Halls for government upgrade,
  • trade with Salt King continues (counts as NOMADS addressed, to a degree?),
  • markets and baths will be done in time,
  • mild support of subordinates,
  • snails have a potential of becoming signature good (red-dyed flag and all).
  • Dam started
Problems unaddressed:
  • government upgrade is moving a bit too slowly.
  • not enough army upgrades or fortification
  • no roads (connectivity)
  • no docks (connectivity, western subordinates)
Reason for "no docks in secondary guild slot": I don't want to see Econ 0, even if it is not, strictly speaking, starvation-level.
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Math works out, no starvation, no negative wealth, we are at 11 wealth at midturn so no -Stability there either. Totally doable, that's probably not the only way to do it too.

veekie said:
This means our stability and naval is essential to preserving our subordinates. Above even Influence. This has been laid out in the narration itself.
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Where? Narration said, again:
Academia Nut said:
Around the time this whole thing was being dealt with, word got back that the various experts sent over to "aid with plague" recovery had managed to coax the Western Colonies into going along with the core territories, for the time being.
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They are very tentative about choosing us over WY.

veekie said:
They are fine for now.
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No, they are not. "They are fiiine for 1 turn" line of thought is what caused this mess with nigh-breakaway subordinates in the first place, maybe it's time to learn from our mistakes? Especially since we can math it in.

veekie said:
2) We have established trade and it is lucrative, but it said in the update itself the only thing that fixes it. Trade missions other than that are nice, but nicest would be finishing the Dam. Which SHOULD also solve the Econ AND Stability problem once it's up.

Trade is already flowing. More trade would be good, but for now they want our dyes and porcelain enough that they won't start shit right now.
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That's if we keep trading. That's uncertain: with mentions of how fucked up are land routes there is no reason to assume there will be trade without Kingly orders to do it.

veekie said:
3) We need the 2 Infrastructure policies to have a chance of meeting all these quests. But theres probably not opposition to that.
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No, there isn't.
 
But really, if main argument against Influence is lack of Wealth....well, there isn't. *shrug* Our provinces will be forced to take cheapest actions, like surveys, expand econs and *gasp* watchtowers, but, like, it's certainly possible to fit in.
You can even fit it a Main if you are willing to drop Trade Mission to the east. I am not willing to, but it's a matter of perspective.
Kiba said:
Can we move Dragon Banner to Greenshore?
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Can we do it while not paying them Wealth?
 
[X][Main] Great Dam
[X][Secondary] Great Dam
[X][Secondary] Great Dam x2
[X][Secondary] Great Dam x3
[X][Secondary] Great Dam x4
[X][Secondary] Change Policy - Passive (Forestry + Forestry -> Infrastructure + Infrastructure)
[X][Guild Main] Plant Poppies
[X][Guild Main] Build Docks
[X][Guild Secondary] Expand Snail Cultivation
 
ctulhuslp said:
But really, if main argument against Influence is lack of Wealth....well, there isn't. *shrug* Our provinces will be forced to take cheapest actions, like surveys, expand econs and *gasp* watchtowers, but, like, it's certainly possible to fit in.
You can even fit it a Main if you are willing to drop Trade Mission to the east. I am not willing to, but it's a matter of perspective.

Can we do it while not paying them Wealth?
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Well, I personally consider building docks more important than the Mission, but an argument could be made one way or another.
 
[X][Main] Great Dam
[X][Secondary] Great Dam
[X][Secondary] Great Dam x2
[X][Secondary] Great Dam x3
[X][Secondary] Great Dam x4
[X][Secondary] Change Policy - Passive (Forestry + Forestry -> Infrastructure + Infrastructure)
[X][Guild Main] Plant Poppies
[X][Guild Main] Build Docks
[X][Guild Secondary] Expand Snail Cultivation
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by Killer_Whale on Nov 3, 2017 at 5:52 AM, finished with 125471 posts and 34 votes.
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agumentic said:
Well, I personally consider building docks more important than the Mission, but an argument could be made one way or another.
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Docks would take up guild slots, which would risk <10 wealth at midturn.
As a normal action...maaybe? It's a matter of how one estimates probability of Forchuh going murderface.

I think that with the previous war with nomads it's clear that the price of them going to war is too expensive, even with low probability, to roll that dice.
Plus, trade with China via them is great for fishing for rice, tea and silk, among other things.

Also, we want them strong and allied or to take over their mountains which is not happening anytime soon. Why? Because they guard Lowlands against the nomads.

I get that docks are like roads but for bulk goods, but Dam addressed the connectivity (in another place, but still), so it's good enough for me.
 
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ctulhuslp said:
Docks would take up guild slots, which would risk <10 wealth at midturn.
As a normal action...maaybe? It's a matter of how one estimates probability of Forchuh going murderface.

I think that with the previous war with nomads it's clear that the price of them going to war is too expensive, even with low probability, to roll that dice.
Plus, trade with China via them is great for fishing for rice, tea and silk, among other things.

Also, we want them strong and allied or to take over their mountains which is not happening anytime soon. Why? Because they guard Lowlands against the nomads.

I get that docks are like roads but for bulk goods, but Dam addressed the connectivity (in another place, but still), so it's good enough for me.
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I thought we can already get rice from the Harmurri unless I am completely mistaken about what they actually grow?

Their sea and silks are definitely troublesome, though.
Adhoc vote count started by Kiba on Nov 3, 2017 at 7:06 AM, finished with 125474 posts and 34 votes.
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[X] [Main] New Trails
[X] [Secondary] More Blackbirds
[X] [Secondary] More Carrion Eaters
[X] [Secondary] Trade Mission: Freehills
[X] [Secondary] Trade Mission: Storm People
[X] [Secondary] More Spiritbonded

[X] [Guild] [Main] Expand Snail Cultivation
[X] [Guild] [Main] Expand Vineyard
[X] [Guild] [Secondary] Improve Annual Festival
 
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[X][Main] Great Dam
[X][Secondary] Distribute Land
[X][Secondary] Change Policy - Passive (Forestry + Forestry -> Infrastructure + Infrastructure)
 
Currently winning "plan" is:

[X][Main]Great Dam
[X][Secondary] Change Policy - Passive (Forestry + Forestry -> Infrastructure + Infrastructure)
[X][Secondary] Expand Econ
[X][Secondary] Expand Econ x2
[X][Secondary] Influence Subordinate - Tinriver Colony
[X][Secondary] Great Dam
[X][Guild] Snail Cultivation
[X][Guild] Plant Poppy
[X][Guild Secondary] Snail Cultivation

Thanks to @ctulhuslp for doing the hard work on discord.

Secondary Great Dam is an invalid vote. Good news is that it probably won't kill us, maybe.
 
Kiba said:
I thought we can already get rice from the Harmurri unless I am completely mistaken about what they actually grow?

Their sea and silks are definitely troublesome, though.
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*tea
Yeah, let's hope we do not go full Roman and give away all the gold to the eastern silk trade.

kilopi505 said:
[X] [Main] New Trails
[X] [Secondary] More Blackbirds
[X] [Secondary] More Carrion Eaters
[X] [Secondary] Trade Mission: Freehills
[X] [Secondary] Trade Mission: Storm People
[X] [Secondary] More Spiritbonded
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Uhh.
1. New Trails is Build Roads for the last dozen(s) of turns.
2. Your vote is -13 Wealth, -6 Econ...so, uh...not the best for our economics and guilds will revolt probably.

Kiba said:
Currently winning "plan" is:

[X][Main]Great Dam
[X][Secondary] Change Policy - Passive (Forestry + Forestry -> Infrastructure + Infrastructure)
[X][Secondary] Expand Econ
[X][Secondary] Expand Econ x2
[X][Secondary] Influence Subordinate - Tinriver Colony
[X][Secondary] Great Dam
[X][Guild] Snail Cultivation
[X][Guild] Plant Poppy
[X][Guild Secondary] Snail Cultivation

Thanks to @ctulhuslp for doing the hard work on discord.

Secondary Great Dam is an invalid vote. Good news is that it probably won't kill us, maybe.
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It's still very much in flux. Let's wait until North America wakes up and votes.
Plus, uh, winning combo is a mess and a half. I took some liberties, like merging "Dam" and "Great Dam" Mains (they were both winners anyway). It's way too early to finalize the votes, AN does not update on Fridays and most of voterbase is offline because timezones.
 
Kiba said:
Currently winning "plan" is:

[X][Main]Great Dam
[X][Secondary] Change Policy - Passive (Forestry + Forestry -> Infrastructure + Infrastructure)
[X][Secondary] Expand Econ
[X][Secondary] Expand Econ x2
[X][Secondary] Influence Subordinate - Tinriver Colony
[X][Secondary] Great Dam
[X][Guild] Snail Cultivation
[X][Guild] Plant Poppy
[X][Guild Secondary] Snail Cultivation

Thanks to @ctulhuslp for doing the hard work on discord.

Secondary Great Dam is an invalid vote. Good news is that it probably won't kill us, maybe.
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I am pretty sure that Great Hall is also there, it's just that the vote is split.
 
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