why are people so fixated on wood-pulp paper? We should work at getting Hemp paper instead, we can grow more of that and quicker, and not have to wait 10 years for a given tree to get big enough to paperize
https://ministryofhemp.com/made-from-hemp/paper/
And more importantly wood pulp paper isn't even possible until past steam power. You need boilers to digest wood down to pulp.
If the population has fallen below a critical threshold, the city's doing things much less efficiently than it used to. The mechanical implications of losing the Econ->EE rebate make that quite clear.

And the loss of efficiency may well cause various trade agreements to fall through, because they were made on the assumption that the city's productive capabilities would still exist in the future.

Expect consequences for that.
Which mechanically is already reflected by the loss of productivity from two passive policies missing. That is a LOT of work being lost.

We have already popped cities upholding infrastructure. Sacred Forest has popped and the library, academy, temple and baths are still ticking along.
AN had made it clear before. Cities popping from EE being too high simply means that they stopped being so attractive due to economic forces. Essential industries still function because they will pay people more to go to the cities to do these jobs
 
It might not be hard, but if you want people to trust you to actually do it, you might want to start by convincing @veekie to promise to never again intentionally starve Ymar.

Good luck with that.

I'm still annoyed that people aren't paying attention to "Independent Infrastructure," the religious trait we got from that bout of stupidity.

It's basically everything we were trying to avoid by never distributing land, after all.
Already said it before, and will say it again, I won't agree to something I know for a fact won't be binding, because there are higher priorities than staying above the econ line. Not many of those priorities, but they exist and enough people agree on that that any such agreement would just lead to it happening unplanned anyways.
Again, our Admin Hero turned off an infrastructure policy to keep the forest policy going strong. Unless you have a really good argument as to why you think he was wrong, be it that he's a biased priest or whatever, I think we should stick with the forest policy.
Thats the second Admin hero to prioritize in that order, so I assume they know what they are doing yeah. And this one comes after the invention of kilns, so we can't say he's unaware of the new efficiencies.
 
I think the reasoning is pretty clear:

We're not going to get that government upgrade next turn, let alone invest the action, and without the passives handling it there's going to be quite a bit of pressure on the voters to say "Eh, how bad could going over our forest limits really be?" and vote for a shiny instead of forestry.

"Trust the voters" is a much worse argument now that we've intentionally starved our own polity once, not that it was ever a very good one.
It's coming to a vote regardless, and that circumstance is an entirely unfair argument because someone was saying 'yes, we should totally starve it's worth it' and no one here is saying 'yes, we should totally go over our forest limit it's worth it'.
However, if you don't want to trust voters, you should start explaining now exactly why going slightly over forest limits is worse than our wealth issues, and preferably evidence that we'd actually go over our forest limit; we'd have 4 open slots after taking PrimalShadow's plan, and expect our Infrastructure policy to start working on Marketplace after the Redshore Bath. I don't see how this takes us over the limit before we again have room to build kilns.
Well, yes?
I am just not seeing any point at removing them. Beyond the UP quest, but policies are the worst tool for quests.

True. Then kilns are indeed no go - which obviously makes switching away from Forestry even more of a dubious idea.
That Secondary can be instead used on a new Annex - they cost only Econ+Culture, which we have. Or put Forests into there as Secondary and use Main to start Dam - it'll be a while before GA, and separate track, IIRC, competes with equally attractive innovation options.
What? Infrastructure policies are the very best tool for the type of quest we're looking to pass there! The stat savings are exactly what give us room to use Expand Forest - and if you like forests then you should hugely prefer that action, since it innovates our forests, which helps keep them more valued and relevant.

It's a single turn; we can Kiln next turn. Passive Policies are not for short term considerations, and unless you're arguing we're going to fail the Patrician quest, this is a short term consideration, so we should be using our king actions on it while setting up our desired long term passive policies.

No, if we don't switch to Infrastructure, we're going to manually build the marketplace to deal with our Wealth issues directly and by getting the Grand Bazaar, either this turn or the next, which is vastly more expensive than the alternative of our Infrastructure policy doing that and us doing Forests.

Already said it before, and will say it again, I won't agree to something I know for a fact won't be binding, because there are higher priorities than staying above the econ line. Not many of those priorities, but they exist and enough people agree on that that any such agreement would just lead to it happening unplanned anyways.
That's all well and good, but putting Blackbirds and similar techs as one of those things is absurd, and you could easily promise that you won't prioritize certain techs above staying above the econ line.
 
It might not be hard, but if you want people to actually trust you to actually do it, you might want to start by convincing @veekie to promise to never again intentionally starve Ymar.

Good luck with that.

I'm still annoyed that people aren't paying attention to "Independent Infrastructure," the religious trait we got from that bout of stupidity.

It's basically everything we were trying to avoid by never distributing land, after all.
Okay, first, we got independent infrastructure because we left the church independent, instead of binding it to the king, second, you don't exactly get to order people what they should want more. They wanted to ensure survival of Blackbirds more than they wanted to ensure no starving, and if you think that's stupid, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Again, our Admin Hero turned off an infrastructure policy to keep the forest policy going strong. Unless you have a really good argument as to why you think he was wrong, be it that he's a biased priest or whatever, I think we should stick with the forest policy.
...Yeah, I can't argue with that, maybe forestry policy does some super important thing we can't notice. What could it be, though, if not just creating a buffer of safe forest?
 
Scattershot Predictions, Take Two

Mysticism will split into learning/academics/etc., representing scientific knowledge and thusly trained individuals, and mysticism/theology/etc., representing religious knowledge. That is what academies will give.

The Grand Bazaar will give wealth income, but also will boost intrigue actions and either a free trade policy or a free secondary trade mission per turn.
 
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Don't mind me, I'm just making a record of you stating this.
For all that people complain about the starvation, there have been, as far as I am aware, little to no long-term effects. Hell, I imagine that a lot of civs around us go into negative econ occasionally. The fact that we do so very rarely is probably the stranger thing.

I get it, it turned out to be a mistake to try to save the Blackbirds. But there are far worse things than dropping to negative econ for a phase. Trying to say that we should never risk starvation ever again ignores a lot of realities of what we might have to face in the future.
 
For all that people complain about the starvation, there have been, as far as I am aware, little to no long-term effects.
I'm sure the reason the independence of the Chuch manifested as Independent Infrastructure specifically was a consequence of that starvation.

But I have to admit, mostly I'm amused to see this line from you juxtaposed with this:
after we actually got the hard mechanical effects of starving and how badly it hits our stability, people will probably be less eager to risk it again.
 
We're not going to get that government upgrade next turn, let alone invest the action, and without the passives handling it there's going to be quite a bit of pressure on the voters to say "Eh, how bad could going over our forest limits really be?" and vote for a shiny instead of forestry.
That is fair. But I have a counterpoint: Your mistrust of the voters is REALLY expensive.



Consider this. We ARE building a Lvl2 Marketplace next turn. I'm not going to bother presenting an argument for this; if you have been following the thread, it is clear which way voter sentiment falls.

A Lvl2 Marketplace costs 2 secondaries, 6 wealth, and 6 culture.
I would say that 6 wealth costs about a Main action to produce. {S} Plant Cotton + {S} Expand Economy gets us a total of +6 Wealth, +3 Econ, -1 Tech, -2 LTE, and I think that the Tech and LTE losses basically balance out the Econ gains there.
The 6 Culture would also probably require a main action to produce, but since we don't really need the culture urgently I'm going to be generous and call only a single secondary. Note that the most powerful stat-generating secondary we have produces only 5 net stats, and they are all hard-to-overflow Econ.

So in total, the cost of the Marketplace is 5 secondaries worth of actions and resources. These aren't just an abstract stat calculation but actual and near-immediate action expenses: we are, as we speak, running low on both Econ and Wealth, and will have to take actions to restore them. We also have a constant Tech expenditure, which culture income and therefore overflow would have helped against.




So by not switching policies, we effectively commit 5{S} worth of actions. What about if we DO switch policies?

Well, switching policies next turn costs 1{S} for the switch. Then, if we want to Main Expand Forests for two turns, that would cost another 4{S}. At this point, we would have produced the same amount of forests, but also gotten +2 Econ, +2 LTE, and two major chances at forest innovation. Furthermore, we would have produce 8 infrastructure progress in those turns, enough to get us the Marketplace and have 2 progress left over.

So. After two turns, the difference is roughly measured as:
Don't Change Policies
Costs 5{S}.
Gets us +2 Forests, builds Marketplace.

Chance Policies
Costs 5{S}.
Gets us +2 Forests, builds Marketplace.
Has 2 infrastructure progress left over
Gets +2 Econ, +2 LTE, and 2 forestry innovation chances
Has 2x Policies set to Infrastructure and not Forestry

~~~~~~
You know how you guys have said that policies aren't for short-term quests? Well here is the thing. Infrastructure Policy is so much more valuable than Forestry Policy right now, that even if we switched the policies back after two turns, therefore eating ANOTHER secondary to switch back, then the net effect of switching would be to have 2 infrastructure progress left over, +2 Econ, +2 LTE, and +2 forestry innovation chances, all for the cost of being down a single secondary.
 
Thats the second Admin hero to prioritize in that order, so I assume they know what they are doing yeah. And this one comes after the invention of kilns, so we can't say he's unaware of the new efficiencies.
Again, our Admin Hero turned off an infrastructure policy to keep the forest policy going strong. Unless you have a really good argument as to why you think he was wrong, be it that he's a biased priest or whatever, I think we should stick with the forest policy.
I think he was prioritizing the crisis which we weren't certain we'd solve this much of this turn, in addition to being a clerk-Priest operating under 15 RA. I certainly agree that forests instead of infrastructure was right at that time, but now we're through more of it than expected and are planning to turn our cities back on and have large wealth problems that are best solved by an Infrastructure passive policy. Note that he also didn't know about the nomads when doing that, so our Wealth problems would have looked less severe.

...Yeah, I can't argue with that, maybe forestry policy does some super important thing we can't notice. What could it be, though, if not just creating a buffer of safe forest?
Yeah no, that argument only applies to passive policies we haven't done much. If doing it over and over and over doesn't reveal the effect to us, then I'm not going to consider it without AN commenting on it or finding out what it is when we turn it off.
If it'll make you worry less, after we actually got the hard mechanical effects of starving and how badly it hits our stability, people will probably be less eager to risk it again.
veekie doesn't seem to have changed his stance, and a great deal of people listen to him.
For all that people complain about the starvation, there have been, as far as I am aware, little to no long-term effects. Hell, I imagine that a lot of civs around us go into negative econ occasionally. The fact that we do so very rarely is probably the stranger thing.

I get it, it turned out to be a mistake to try to save the Blackbirds. But there are far worse things than dropping to negative econ for a phase. Trying to say that we should never risk starvation ever again ignores a lot of realities of what we might have to face in the future.
The problem is that people are way too ready to do it, and people would be fairly ready to go back on their word anyway, so getting them to commit to not doing it would make us much closer to doing it only when it's actually worth it.
Also, I think doing it a second time would build further on whatever social values changes it might cause, and if people think it's harmless beyond the stability cost, then they might try to go further. Honestly, it's the most extreme 'mechanics over narrative' thing we've done that I can think of.
 
I'm sure the reason the independence of the Chuch manifested as Independent Infrastructure specifically was a consequence of that starvation.
Considering the temp econ resistance buff went a looooooooong way to saving our butts during the plague, I am going to say that was actually a stroke of luck. You might not like it, and it will probably cause problems in the future (what doesn't?), but it is far from a bad thing that we got such a trait.

But I have to admit, mostly I'm amused to see this line from you juxtaposed with this:
Uh, yeah? I never said people would be eager to starve, merely that we would still have moments where we need to take a risk of starving in the future.

That's why Veekie gets annoyed when you demand that he swear never to do that again. There are so many situations that could occur where we will have to chose starvation to survive, so making such a promise would be idiotic.

Like, assume that a nomad horde appears. We could drain our econ to raise an army or cavalry or wall or whatever, but it would send us into negative econ.

If Veekie followed what you are telling him, we wouldn't raise the forces needed to oppose the horde, because it would starve us. When the choice is death or starvation for some, we have to have the choice to starve to survive.
 
Well, luckily there's a vote and not just a council of two people with differing objectives :p

That is, maybe focus on a performative debate on why you think that, rather than just stating that you're not going to compromise?

I did it dozens of times within last weeks specifically when debating PrimalShadow, so I did not really see a need to reiterate all the points at him tbh - we probably said everything we could about forests to each other and are unlikely to change our minds at this point, honestly.

Okay then.
1. Genius and now Hero heavily prioritized forests. One put Forestry x3, other left Forestry x2 and instead preferred to lose Infras - despite baths and aqueducts being more visibly important than ever. Which means that there is probably something to the idea.

2. Removing passive Forestries means we now have to take them manually. Which means another simmering fire for us to take care of. We already have 6-20 firest, depending on what time period and severity do you look at, we cannot add more for no reason.

3. Do I need to explain why going over the cap is going to be a fire? And yes, as per AN:
You can go over the cap without immediate problems, so since iron and hot water is in high demand you will go over the cap if you don't keep up.
(and note without immediate problems - they will be later on, but Guilds will go "lalala climate change is a hoax" because profits uber alles; corporations gonna corporate)

4. Urbanization - infras love spamming stuff which spawns (or upgrades) cities. They sometimes seem to behave like Urbanization: The Policy, for better or worse.
4.1. We got lucky wrt plague - our baths bailed us out. But, as per AN's comments on cities, they give negative modifiers for disease rolls and are, before modern era, basically bioweapon labs - yes, even Ymaryn ones.
4.2. Cities necessitate actions to keep them sane and in one peace - baths, aqueducts, the like. It is not that big of a deal to start with, but a pricetag of "requires periodic actions to sustain" is always something to watch out for - even if some of those actions are taken up by policies, it's still a bother. Case in point: Redshore upgrade to lvl2 forced us to spend our action on Aqueduct 2, which is an opportunity cost. That time it was action we did not mind going anyway - no guarantee it will be this way again.
4.3. Urban things love fuel. For baths and ironworks to start with. Eventually we will see other consumers. And as per AN passives will want more Ironworks because cheap iron uber alles.

There are some other concerns, but that's the shortened form of it all.


So, uh, what do we gain by switching forests which is worth ignoring our heroes, AN and putting another burning fire into our lap while we already have too much? More stats-efficient shinies? Not worth it.

If we could get separate Infra policy for "things which will not use fuel and do not speed up urbanization train" (Libraries, Colossal Walls, Temples(?), Palaces(?), Salterns), I would consider it.


What? Infrastructure policies are the very best tool for the type of quest we're looking to pass there! The stat savings are exactly what give us room to use Expand Forest - and if you like forests then you should hugely prefer that action, since it innovates our forests, which helps keep them more valued and relevant.

It's a single turn; we can Kiln next turn. Passive Policies are not for short term considerations, and unless you're arguing we're going to fail the Patrician quest, this is a short term consideration, so we should be using our king actions on it while setting up our desired long term passive policies.

No, if we don't switch to Infrastructure, we're going to manually build the marketplace to deal with our Wealth issues directly and by getting the Grand Bazaar, either this turn or the next, which is vastly more expensive than the alternative of our Infrastructure policy doing that and us doing Forests.

Exactly. Passive policies are not for short-term considerations. Quests are short-term considerations. Forests are a long-term consideration.

You know how you guys have said that policies aren't for short-term quests? Well here is the thing. Infrastructure Policy is so much more valuable than Forestry Policy right now, that even if we switched the policies back after two turns, therefore eating ANOTHER secondary to switch back, then the net effect of switching would be to have 2 infrastructure progress left over, +2 Econ, +2 LTE, and +2 forestry innovation chances, all for the cost of being down a single secondary.

We would not switch back and we both know it.
 
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The problem is that people are way too ready to do it, and people would be fairly ready to go back on their word anyway, so getting them to commit to not doing it would make us much closer to doing it only when it's actually worth it.
Also, I think doing it a second time would build further on whatever social values changes it might cause, and if people think it's harmless beyond the stability cost, then they might try to go further. Honestly, it's the most extreme 'mechanics over narrative' thing we've done that I can think of.
Uh, how many times have we actually starved ourselves? I think a grand total of 3-4 times over the course of the entire quest? That is not 'way too ready'.
 
Uh, how many times have we actually starved ourselves? I think a grand total of 3-4 times over the course of the entire quest? That is not 'way too ready'.
Two, and one time we were just close to it due to nomad horde. Three if you count that time when we gave food to everyone around us during the drought in times immemorial.
 
I'm sure the reason the independence of the Chuch manifested as Independent Infrastructure specifically was a consequence of that starvation.
I disagree, the very fact that the priests were not bound to the government in some manner was going to result in that.
 
It's vastly more often that your 'literal death or survival' counterexample.
...You mean the literal life and death example like the one we just went through? Or what happens half the time the nomads get a horde? Or whenever we get dragged into a great power war? Etc...

Cause we get thrown into situations where we aren't sure we will survive if we don't go all out pretty often, honestly, and it's speed up quite a bit since we became king of the hill.
 
Changing vote...

[X] [Enclave] Attempt to reconcile issues (-1 Stability, -4 Mysticism, -6 Culture, ???)
[X] [React] Restore confidence after the plague (Sec Restore Order + Sec Proclaim Glory)
[X] [React] Attempt to get the western colonies in line (Main Influence Subordinate - Starts with Western Wall, x2 also goes to Greenshore, x3 goes to Tinshore)
[X] [React] Greet new nomad chief (Main Targeted Salt Gift)
[X] [PSN] Main Expand Forests (-2 Cent + Costs)
 
Changing vote...

[X] [Enclave] Attempt to reconcile issues (-1 Stability, -4 Mysticism, -6 Culture, ???)
[X] [React] Restore confidence after the plague (Sec Restore Order + Sec Proclaim Glory)
[X] [React] Attempt to get the western colonies in line (Main Influence Subordinate - Starts with Western Wall, x2 also goes to Greenshore, x3 goes to Tinshore)
[X] [React] Greet new nomad chief (Main Targeted Salt Gift)
[X] [PSN] Main Expand Forests (-2 Cent + Costs)
we're gonna need a wealth boost to do this, unfortunately
 
Agreed.

[X] [Enclave] Attempt to reconcile issues (-1 Stability, -4 Mysticism, -6 Culture, ???)
[X] [React] Restore confidence after the plague (Sec Restore Order + Sec Proclaim Glory)
[X] [React] Attempt to get the western colonies in line (Main Influence Subordinate - Starts with Western Wall, x2 also goes to Greenshore, x3 goes to Tinshore)
[X] [React] Greet new nomad chief (Main Targeted Salt Gift)
[X] [PSN] Main Expand Forests (-2 Cent + Costs)
 
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